Let's start things off with a big topic....

Charlie I made what I thought was a great suggestion that we institute some sort of "team captain" type role for each category. Would people like to lend thoughts about how this might work here? We will probably need to eventually split this thread up by category as well, but for now perhaps we can get a sense of whether people want to pursue this.

Here's a repost of Charlie I.'s email message:

In 1986, my dad organized the first ever "sub team" in Kissena - the KCC/Atala Junior Team. He approached Al Toefield (President of Kissena) and said he wanted to organize the juniors on Kissena into one more cohesive team. He would manage the team and get sponsors. Junior racing was serious business back then. There was a 7-11 junior team (a feeder team for the 7-11 Pro team) and the Plymouth-Reebok team was also a fully sponsored junior team. Al said yes and the team consisted of George and Rich Hincapie, John Affenita, John Loehner and myself.

Now my thoughts:

1. I don't think Kissena needs "elite/sub" teams. The KCC/Atala Jr. team worked because my dad ran the show and dedicated himself full time to make it work. Unless somebody is going to do that "job", year after year, the team will fail. Guaranteed. My dad has been managing the Mengoni team for the last 17 years in a similar way and it's the reason the team continues when other teams have come and gone. Like Ragot said, it's usually a handful of people who keep this sport alive at the grassroots level.

2. When I started racing in 1978, my first club was the German Bicycle Sports Club (GBSC), the Club my dad always raced since he started in 1956. From the 50's until late 70's, GBSC was one of the best RACING CLUBS in the Northeast producing numerous National Champions and winners of the Tour of the Somerville (aka the World Championships for most of the country back then). Like Kissena, anybody could join the GBSC (well not exactly, in the early years I think you had to be German). I was only a kid when I joined but I remember the team had a Road, Track and Junior captain. Their jobs were to manage each category.

I think having "Captains" might be a good idea for Kissena. It sounds to me like riders are leaving not for "stuff "but for more structure.

Perhaps Kissena could have a Cat 1-2-3 captain, Cat 4 captain, Track Captain and 'Cross Captain.

Brief Race Captain Job Description:

1. Establish yearly goals. (Ex: Lucarelli & Castaldi Cup oveall)
2. Create a month-to-month race schedule highlighting target race. (Ex: "guys, this month's goal is Bear Mtn.")
3. Loosely form race tactic for each race. I say "loosely" because nobody is getting paid here so it has to be a friendly give-and-take of who the leaders are for each race. (Ex: "guys, Joe is flying now. I would like him to be our protected rider at Bear Mtn").
4. Submit a brief monthly report on how their group is doing. (Ex: "Here's an update on the Cat 4 Team: We won Bear Mtn")

I'm sure there are other things but you get the idea. It's not hard work and it would be fun. I see how the Cat 4's rallied behind Yack the last 2 years for the Green Jersey and it was great. Now we just need a "go to" guy to structure it a bit more. Heck, some of you are kinda doing the job description already! This is not about getting sponsors for each group or wearing different jerseys, it's about just having somebody call the shots a bit more.

Thoughts?

Charlie Issendorf

Thanks, I was just looking for that!

I'm very much in support of this idea. It feels right. At times it felt like we naturally started to go in that direction, with meetings before the race, or how we would rally around a rider who was on-form and had a solid goal (Yack!). It's a way that, within this larger club, we can remain motivated and cohesive year-round.
We are a club, but we are a club that at its heart races. And when we race, most of us I believe want to race feeling a part of a team.
This is a way we can achieve that small-team feel while still remaining part of a larger club, sharing in everyones success, being motivated by all. Let's give it a try.

I like the idea a lot.

I do think before it is implemented we should build clearer structure. The role of captain should be very clearly defined so that people know what they are signing up for, and their teammates know what they can expect from them.

Charlie's job description lays a good foundation, but I think there would be some other things. For example, I'd like to see the captains responsible for organizing and encouraging attendance at group rides so that each category's team is riding together regularly.

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: Ryan J</cite>

Charlie's job description lays a good foundation, but I think there would be some other things. For example, I'd like to see the captains responsible for organizing and encouraging attendance at group rides so that each category's team is riding together regularly.</blockquote>

couldn't agree more

Bill and Ryan,

What do you think the roles of the captains need to be?

Dan

I think this is a great idea, but the implementation could be a bit tricky. You don't want to make the job so closely defined that no one will volunteer to do it. But you also don't want some wacko who is out of touch with the group. I think the best thing to do is assemble each group and have them "elect" a team captain and then let said captain do whatever they want. If you can actually manage a face-to-face meeting, then you can talk over what you think would work before the "election". You will have elected him/her because you trust him/her. Make the term of appt short (3 months?). Then you can extend the appointment or change captains if it isn't working out. This is all pretty experimental and pre-conceived ideas are not necessarily going to work well in practice.
David

I think the job description Charlie laid out is logical. And as I said I would like to see "coordinate weekly group rides" or something added.

I think, actually, I'm less concerned with what the responsibilities ARE - I just think there should be SOME predefined responsibilities, even if it's just four or five very simple tasks. For example (I'll steal from Charlie a good bit here)

1. Hold a meeting with your category to establish yearly goals. (Ex: Lucarelli & Castaldi Cup oveall)

2. Organize and promote regular group riding within your category.

3. Create a month-to-month race schedule highlighting important races. Perhaps encourage riders of similar strength to target different races (i.e. We'll work for David at Battenkill, so let's work for Norm at Bear).

4. Work to maximize both team results and individual aspirations, and focus on feeding our 1/2/3 squad with people who will stick around. For example, if rider X is the strongest, let's ride for him until he can move up. Then its someone else's turn.

5. Loosely form tactics for each race by taking goals and suggestions from the group and then helping the group move toward the best decision. Don't tell people what to do, but make suggestions (i.e. "Ryan, I know you're climbing well, but I think Joe is climbing better. Are you willing to crush it for us early to help bust things up? (or whatever).

6. Submit a brief monthly report on how their group is doing. (Ex: "Here's an update on the Cat 4 Team: We won Bear Mtn")

I see David's point re: "This is all pretty experimental and pre-conceived ideas are not necessarily going to work well in practice." Mostly, I agree. But, I think if we don't have SOMETHING concrete to test, then it's difficult to identify what does and does not work and if folks aren't happy with how its going.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

There are some greater difficulties here than acknowledged. Namely that fives become fours, that fours race with threes, that threes with twos and ones, and that people can pretty easily move between masters racing and senior racing.

How do we work with this?

Hmm. Good point.

So....it's not really a problem in the 5s. Their sole aim is to get to 4. It's **mostly** not a problem in the 4s. All major races and park races have 4-only fields. It's an issue at FBF, but I think we could all work together there - and other 3/4 races happen rarely enough that we could deal with them on a case by case basis.

It becomes more difficult for 1/2/3s, who race together often. Perhaps the elected captain for that group should be a 2 who can also captain the 3 squad when they have their own race? I don't know...I'll leave that to y'all more successful bike racers to figure out.

JP, are you suggesting that there are going to be conflicts between Cat 3 and Cat 2 Captains for the 123 PP race?

I'm concerned that while this is coud be of benefit within the categories, there could be a cost in terms of overall club cohesiveness. More along the lines of not knowing who is going to show at a race and having rides that are closed off to large chunks of the membership.

Yep, those are all things to be taken into consideration. I'll try to formulate something to write up this weekend that is a bit more concrete and coherent, but 1 big thing to me, which Ryan touched on, is goals. I think the captain could be in a good position to keep teammates aware of races coming up that a teammate may be targeting and help make sure that person has some support there, etc. I think David has a good point, especially the first go round, that this is going to be somewhat loosely defined and should be open to changes mid-stream. Speaking very generally, I'm thinking of more of a point man/woman than anything, a coordinator. Having a threaded forum will help communication, but it would be nice to go another step and have someone tightening the ranks, so to speak. I don't think different categories will offer that much of a problem, I could be wrong. Even in the 5's, where as Ryan rightly pointed out that the goal was pretty clear, I can see a great deal of benefit in having someone fill this role, actually especially in the 5's where I know as a total newbie to racing, I had a billion questions and didn't always want to broadcast them far and wide. Sorry for the scatterbrain reply, multitasking at the end of the work week.

As for closing off rides -- it could work well to think of them this way: "This is a 5-targeted ride. Here is our program for the day. If you're interested in doing this, join us!"

I like Dave Stokes' idea of 3-month terms -- that work is distributed, and if someone's not working out it's less awkward to rotate at the pre-assigned time than to figure out how to convince them to change.

yeah y'all

let's not over think this

try it, see what works, change it . . . it's all going to be pretty loosey-goosey anyway . . . much like the Kissena Cycling Club in general!

I agree with William.
Also, I don't see this as separating the club into disparate groups. After all, there will always be flux as successful riders move up a category. If anything, I think this will create stronger bonds, to riders in ones category and to the larger club. Charlie said it's worked well in the past for other clubs (GBSC, etc), so I don't see why it couldn't work well for us. Worth a shot.

I'd like to point out how not a single female racing member of Kissena showed to the club dinner last night, or at least I didn't see any there. I arrived late so maybe I missed somebody. Not a single female member of Kissena ran for a board position this election. I can think of precious few rides I've done that were open to the whole club that a Kissena chick showed, and I recall very few club-wide rides that were advertised or lead by women. Seems to me that the wimmin in Kissena opted for their own list and that it has, maybe by design, kept them separate from the guys.

This is one of my many reasons for concern.

I don't think that a seperate email list has kept them outside the club. I certainly have opinions on why they don't generally ride with us (would you want to get dropped on every hill on a group ride?), but I certainly wish they would come! It was odd that we didn't have any female representation at the dinner, but I was disappointed with the overall turnout.

Guys & Gals - If we want to have a club this size run efficiently, then we need more communication at all levels. A captain structure works. Period. Those of us who have been part of a team that has been big enough to have it, remember it fondly.

It's not supposed to be a formal thing, and we need more than one person handling communication for every category. Co-captains, asst. captains, whatever you want to call it - we just need to have some volunteers who are enthusiastic. We also need email alias's for each "group", instead of sending out emails to tons of people. We also need an easy way of editing those alias addresses so that people can come and go. ex: cat4@kissena.info

keep it flexible and OPEN, but keep the communication flowing...

Would there also be captains for specific disciplines? I know that we've got a few young cat 4 trackies on the team, and I'm sure we'd benefit greatly by having some sort of guidance/mentoring. Maybe due to the smaller number of track cyclists a captain would be useful for organizing practices/training routines for the whole group, as opposed to for each category.

Sounds perfect - why not? We could do the same for 'cross and MTB.

Eloy is already CX captain. And photographer. And mascot. Yeah!!

Yay! some anonymous Kissena-Admin made me Captain and Mascot! (at the least the thing says admin)

This CX season still going strong... I love December racing, because it finally resembles what cross is really like.

Already working on plans for 2011/12 including mini stuffed lions of brooklyn and more Kissena Sponsored Cyclocross races in December!

Yay!

Posted By: eloy mini stuffed lions of brooklyn

WOAH. YES.

and more Kissena Sponsored Cyclocross races in December!

WOAH. YES.

Eloy - as defacto CX captain / cheerleader - you are just awesome. Thanks for the great writeups and encouragement - it definetly get me out to a couple of races I may not have otherwise considered as heavily.

I don't like the idea of electing/choosing/thumb-wrestling/whatever a captain for 3 month terms. One of the things that I would hope that riders would get out of this, would be leadership skills. Also, some could probably use listening skills.

Under a 3 month "term" we basically have 2 diff't captains for the bulk of road season. And I don't know about you, but if I have to do what JP wants me to do for 3 months, I might have to explore some ceremonial Japanese "end" games. Haha. (actually we tend to agree on racing tactics)

Seriously, I see the captain as a leader, facilitator, organizer and arbitrator and lastly a decision-maker if the group cannot come to an agreement on a matter. And by having different captains on the roads of our parks, I think there is an inherit benefit in executing different racing strategies depending on that captain's preferences. Of course I'm not suggesting that the captain's word is law, but unless the group of riders is in total disagreement with a suggested tactic, then I think it is worthy to go along with said presented idea.

I mention the park races because this is primarily where there action is going to occur. It's true our Cat 3s have had success organizing and racing as a team at the out of town races, and I expect that will continue with the way some of you sandbaggers can ride (just kidding!). But I need to point out here that in the New England/Mid-Atlantic region, racing in the Pro 1/2 category becomes a whole 'nother ball game altogether. Even if Joaquin upgrades and continues to get great results like his top 20 at the Fall Bear Mountain 1/2/3 race, it's not going to change, significantly, what needs to be done on the road as a team of cat 2s. And as much as I would like to believe that next year is me and JP's year, where we go all "Roger Aspholm" on everybody, I've been doing this long enough to know better. Don't get me wrong. We'll have our moments and they will be studly, but they will not be moments where two or three of us are running rough-shod over a field of full-time racers, dopers, and young guys on the verge of pro contracts.

So yes, there needs to be one captain for the 1/2/3 fields in the park. And it can be a 2 or a 3.

The biggest thing for me here is participation. With obnoxious regularity, JP and I, for most every park race weekend where one of us participated (which was at least 70% of all park races), attempted to organize team-meetings (don't make me go to my email's "sent" folder), and on most occasions attendance was sparse. Yes there were times when I was late, and that was very bad of me...but there were also times when I was there early and alone pinning my number waiting for people to show and talk about the upcoming race.

I'm pleased as punch that Charlie's suggestion has ignited interest in better team race organization, but I know from experience that it will take participation for this idea to succeed. If folks continue to show up at the race line 60 seconds before we start, don't communicate with their teammates during the race, and generally do their own thing, then we will continue to get similar results to last year. Which is/was, range from "not bad," to, "are you kidding me, how did we not get one guy to place?"

-Marc

Epilogue thought: Another thing to consider is that for success (i.e. jersey winning) in a series like the L&C cup of last year to occur, it seems to me (I haven't gone back over the calendar to confirm the following thought, so I MIGHT be a little wrong here) that regular attendance at these races is required. And while I love having the option of park races for most every weekend of the racing season, traveling and racing the bigger regional events (if time and budget allow) during the meat of the road season is always going to be a priority for me. Because as much fun as trading pulls in Prospect Park with one of the 150 Burrow's brothers (as we chase down a break we both missed) is, it's never going to be as much fun as climbing up some bucolic hill in New England.

Okay, prospective team captains, listen up! I think it would be a good idea for everyone even remotely interested in being a squad captain at some point during the upcoming road racing season to attend JP's racing tactics talk on February 28th. I think this presentation will dovetail nicely with a discussion of the roles, responsibilities and expectations of the team captain. Looking forward to seeing all the captains there!

Checking in here again and want to get an idea of how many of you are interested in taking on some leadership responsibilities during the course of the 2011 road racing season. If you think you might like to take a shot at it, and/or are planning to attend the Feb 28th Tactics Talk, please respond on this thread.

Again, one of the things that we will discuss on the 28th is some of the roles, responsibilities and expectations of a road captain.

I do plan to attend the meeting on the 28th, but since I'm such a new member, I don't really plan to be a captain right off the bat.

"as much fun as trading pulls in Prospect Park with one of the 150 Burrow's brothers (as we chase down a break we both missed) is, it's never going to be as much fun as climbing up some bucolic hill in New England. "

Marc, you clearly are touched in the head, because I find it challenging to find "fun" in grinding up a New England hill as guys 10 years younger and 25lbs lighter ride away from me, as I curse gravity, genetics and my insufficient training.

I will probably try my hand at being a Cat 4 road captain. Certainly for L&C races. I might not be much use in the spring series, since it is too early in my year.

i would be happy to act as a Road Captain for the 3's for parts of the season

i plan on racing somewhere either 2 or 3 weekends a month in the spring, targeting battenkill and some of the other early-season road races

i'm in decent shape and i'm excited to practice some "Strategery"* with my Kissena teammates

*George W. Bush, circa 2003