Tour de France - Forum Archive

Jul 20, 2013 at 07:29 PM

Funniest quote yet courtesy of that cesspool of hate we call NYVelocity

"By the way.

By: shootthegap

Fri, 07/19/2013 - 10:56pm

Froome is NOT British he is born in Kenya. Just because his parents took his paperwork elsewhere that does not make him British. Lets not loose the trees in the forest.

He's Kenyan and Stevie Wonder can see he's on a different level than everyone else. Please stop acting like he's the next best thing to come out since tubeless wheels.

dstearns

Jul 21, 2013 at 04:50 PM

Nairo Quintana's family watching Stage 20 - awesome

image.jpg

mugwump

Jul 21, 2013 at 05:38 PM

re:Kenyan.

I asked this very thing of Matt Seaton today. He is not only from those largely anglophone isles off the west coast of Europe, but he works for the Guardian. I ask: "the guy was born and raised in Kenya. don't the British take issue wiht him claiming Britishness just for sporting purposes?" He responded that they're so bereft of sporting stars they'll take what they can get.

Any other Englishman have a feeling about this?

normanzo

Jul 21, 2013 at 05:57 PM

Alyosha --you stated "Also Sky is offering to hand over whatever is necessary to shut up critics, so you tell me what's curated about that[?]" Well, Armstrong even went to the point of hiring a doping expert to follow him around and track all his bio and performance data... that didn't last. These guys can and will offer anything. Once again, I'm merely pointing out that the state of the sport now seems totally consistent with what it has been in the past.

The simplicity of the tactics, dominance, similarity to USPS, etc. --that's very much a relevant consideration here given that drugs are still in the sport. Having the strongest team in a peloton at least some well-trained doped teams simply calls the strongest teams into question. And I only question. I am not accusing. After all, it can happen that a Rocky will beat a Drago.

The reason I watch the tour is that I enjoy watching bike racing --and I love seeing all those gorgeous French landscapes too! Doping has always been present, always will be. Its prevalence will fluctuate. I was always on the hopeful side of Armstrong (giving him the benefit of the doubt). After LA first retired in 2005, I started to think that it was unlikely that he and his team were racing clean simply because there were so many teams who were caught doping, yet Postal/Discovery had dominated all the doped teams for all those years. That "Dog in a Hat" metaphor applies to Sky and Saxo and Cannondale and plenty of other teams. But applicable metaphors don't equal proof.

I'll also say that I'm not really a big fan of any cyclists... pro cyclists, that is. I don't know those guys. I am a fan of you and Mike and John and Joe and Ryan and Jules and Eric and JP and Marc and all you guys who I have raced and trained and eaten pastries with. Above you guys, there is only one, the incomparable Stephane! No one can touch his nostrils. The pros take a back seat, maybe even a rumble seat, to you guys.

Jules

Jul 21, 2013 at 07:47 PM

Can't believe I'm actually saying this but

I actually feel sorry for Cav

Jeff Owens

Jul 21, 2013 at 07:53 PM

OMG. For the bell lap, Kirby on Eurosport actually said "For Froome the Bell Tolls!!!!"....

Too punny.

ian ellis

Jul 21, 2013 at 08:44 PM

@JP

Don't mistake British and English as the same thing. The most certainly are not, however here is not the forum to elaborate on the difference.

What I can say is that there is a history of riders from other countries switching to a British nationality and competing GB. Zola Bud possibly being the most famous. Typically we accept it because the people involved are from countries that were once part of the Empire (as recently as 1920 one third of the world was part of the Empire) and that means there is often a very short lineage back to parents or at most Grandparents from Britain. Hence there is nothing we can actually do to prevent it if we wanted to.

The level of acceptance I would say depends very much on how much they sound like a typical Brit. Zola B and Froome most certainly do NOT fall into that category. Wiggins absolutely does.

Sometimes there is more animosity towards the sportsperson than Matt has you believe. There was significant negative press when Zola B switched to be a British national, because it was obvious she wasn't doing because of a love of Britain, but because she wanted to run in the Olympics and could not because she was from South Africa. I know many people who were happy her selfish plans fell down (pun intended).

It would be interesting to hear what the Irish think of Dan Martin, who is from Birmingham, England and has the accent to prove it.

Of course many other countries do this. It is fairly rampant in the 'new' countries that have resurrected themselves after the fall of the USSR.

And of course here in the USA too: Meb Keflezighi

Ryan J

Jul 21, 2013 at 08:49 PM

Great searchable final standings tool

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/tour-de-france/10150506/Tour-de-France-2013-final-race-details-and-standings.html

mugwump

Jul 21, 2013 at 08:54 PM

Ian,

In fairness to Meb, he moved here when he was 12. Froome, from what I can tell, has never lived anywhere in the British Isles.

And I do wonder about Dan Martin calling himself Irish. Nicholas Roche, while born in France, seems to have gone to school in Dublin.

ian ellis

Jul 22, 2013 at 12:05 AM

JP,
We agree. And as per Meb ... hence the distinction between Wiggins and Froome.

Jeffrey White

Jul 22, 2013 at 01:11 AM

I think it's fair to say that Cav, while he had a great Tour by almost any other measure, had a very disappointing Tour by Cav standards. I didn't think I'd see the best sprinter in history (by a lot) lose in Paris so soon. His recent victories there have been thoroughly decisive.

He got beat straight up by Greipel, which is pretty surprising, seeing as Greipel is so much older and could soon be expected to be in the waning days of a sprinter's shelf life. I wonder if Cav is just losing his sprint or whether he showed up without the form to withstand the rigors of making the time cut every day. I don't think his leadout train is the real problem.

And Kittel. Wow. He has Jan Ullrich's legs, but twice as long. He led out the sprint awfully far from the line without getting a gap but it didn't matter because nobody could even get off his wheel. Scary. This guy looks like he might dominate sprints for the foreseeable future, especially considering how Argos's leadout train has emerged as such a powerhouse.

If this year wasn't already, it looks like 2014 will be a pivotal year for sprints.

mugwump

Jul 22, 2013 at 01:31 AM

Cav did flat and chase back on the Champs. I'm sure it took something out of him. And in the battle of the sprint trains, Omega Pharma lost, and badly to Argos-Shimano. When Cav has won on the Champs, he's never farther back then third wheel out of the last corner. Kittel was second wheel. Cav had to come from behind Greipel.Loved the side shot from the moto. It was awesome watching Cav and Greipel kick.

That written, it was a terrible Tour by Cav for his standards.

do people really wonder why he wants Renshaw back? I also figure Eisel is next--especially after Bernie got left off the Tour team.

Jeff Owens

Jul 22, 2013 at 02:43 AM

Yeah his leadout has sucked all year. Kittel just had too much of a margin fro cav to make up.

Jules

Jul 22, 2013 at 01:52 PM

Does anyone else think it is odd that there is ZERO discussion of Wiggo this year?

Adam

Jul 22, 2013 at 02:41 PM

I've been paying attention tot he Cav-Kittlel-Greipel sprint thing all Tour and here are my thoughts, in noparticular order:

1)There is no such thing as a 'sprinter' anymore. It is all about 'sprint teams'. HTC really revolutionised this concept. No stage hunting. No 'aiming for a top 10 with our "GC" guy'. No KOM. Just aim for the 4-7 sprint stages. Nothing else. In this regard, you have two pure copies: Argos-Shimano and Lotto (Lotto have yet to realise that taking Jurgen Van den Broek is a waste of time, he's 2nd tier [still excellent] and would have a real shot at the Giro or Vuelta, where there are fewer first tier GC guys and if he had a whole team). In this regard, Argos-Shimano are head and shoulders above both Lotto, OPQ and anyone else. The sprinter is an important part of it, but not the only part. If Cav was in Argos this year, would he be on 4 stages, Kittlel on 2?? Probably.

2)Greipel SHOULD have won on the Champs Elysees. He will never get another chance like that. Second wheel on Kittel as Kittlel hit the front with 250m to go. Couldn't dream of a better situation! He's done, he was always second best in the world, now he's even second best in Germany. If Cav had been first wheel and Kittel second, Kittel probably would have come round and won (see previous Tour stage). If Cav had been second wheel, he probably would have come round and won (in fact he did make one and a half bike lengths on Kittel but was simply too far back). Greipel did not win.

3)Cav lost that sprint before it began. Put it this way-for the last five years (I'm not sure what happened before that, before my time) the guy who took that corner second wheel has always won.

4)This total BS of OPQ taking up the leadout at 3-4km. What the fuck are they thinking?? The only reason that worked with HTC was because there was no real leadout competition! If you take up lead at 4km there is no way you will stop a dedicated leadout team just sitting in and then blasting past at 1.5km to go. A la yesterday. They need to figure this out. I understand yesterday that they took it up at 3km as they wanted the inside line on the last 4 corners but that was WAY too far when Lotto and Argos were just sitting in. And in Paris, the boulevards are so wide that you can't block other teams like in most other sprint stages (see Hincapie blast past Garmin in 2009).

5)Fat Cav rode and crushed the Giro. 5 stages is amazing but the points jersey too-incredible, especially as that isn't even a 'sprint' competition. No matter how you cut it, that makes a huge difference. Same thing with Cuddles on the GC. Third at Giro, no gas left at the Tour. I bet Owens' dented bike that next year Cav skips the Giro. He's won the jersey he was after and now game on at the Tour. Noone can do well at both in the same season. Simples.

6)No doubt next year Renshaw and Bernie will be at OPQ. Interesting to see how Petacchi will fit in. I personally think that it will be great to have a sprint-centric mind in there. After all, OPQ are not a sprint team, they are simply a classics squad who figured they could simply buy a sprinter and become a sprint team. Apparently not that simple!

These are my thoughts. I'm so intelligent and witty and attractive that I am right. Read these thoughts at your work desk and enjoy how insightful I am.

[end]

xoxo

ian ellis

Jul 22, 2013 at 03:15 PM

@adam

Way before HTC was Saeco.

kieranleahy

Jul 22, 2013 at 05:12 PM

mugwump said:

And I do wonder about Dan Martin calling himself Irish. Nicholas Roche, while born in France, seems to have gone to school in Dublin.

@mugwump and @ian - fairly well placed to comment on this as this is exactly what I did back in the day...I am born and grew up in the UK but my father's born in Ireland, so I qualified for an Irish passport and thus the right to ride for them. I was too old and not fast enough at the time to qualify for the UK track team when I got into track racing and the Irish offered a chance to ride international races etc. and lacked anyone better than me. Cynical? Yes, a little. But both parties ultimately benefited. Pretty much the same scenario as Dan Martin, Matt Brammier and other "plastic paddies" (as they get coined).

As for "acceptance", I rode for an Irish club and had an Irish sponsor and manager, but tbh, never really felt "accepted" within Irish cycling circles, essentially because I don't have the accent (I was known as "the Brit", ha!). You gradually got more accepted the better you got, but there were always people who didn't (haters gonna hate, yo), as well as those who just didn't care.

With such a nomadic nation like the Irish (long history of migrating back and forth for work, particularly to and from the UK), it works both ways too; funny story - I was at a Irish Cycling Federation dinner with a few Irish friends in 2011 when one of them was joking about the fact that I wasn't Irish. A second guy then pointed out that he (first guy) was actually born in the UK too, only raised in Ireland, just like he was. We then realized that the most "Irish" of us was the fourth friend, who was born and bred in Ireland, but whose grandfather was Lebanese...

I'm sure Martin is slightly more accepted than me cos a) he's Stephen Roche's nephew and b) he's very good.

As for Froome - I agree with Ian re the Empire roots. I don't think people in the UK care too much as long as they're successful and also can endear themselves with the public. In the 1990s there was a Canadian tennis player called Greg Rusedski who claimed UK citizenship for the purposes of sport, only no-one really liked him cos a) he wasn't that good and b) didn't have much character.

And I guess unless you're some sort of indigenous person, nationalities are ultimately artificial anyway. Not that here is the place to debate that of course, but just to try to sound clever really, haha.

dstearns

Jul 23, 2013 at 12:48 AM

Interesting story, from 4 years ago, about the cool cycling origins of this years Lanterne Rouge, Canada's Svein Tuft: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/sports/othersports/08cycling.html?_r=0 This guy seems like he'd fit right in with a certain NYC cycling club. Also - what a serious bummer for Lieuwe Westra - abandoned on the Champs with 40K to go!! Ugh.

image.jpg

Jeff Owens

Jul 23, 2013 at 01:27 AM

Well he can technically say he "made it to Paris" right?

dstearns

Jul 23, 2013 at 01:35 AM

Yes it's true. He is in Paris. In relative terms, getting dropped in the the last 40K of a 3,400k race is sorta like getting dropped on the 11th lap of a 12 lap PP race.

Jules

Jul 23, 2013 at 01:55 AM

"During his race-winning attack on the Col de Manse, he averaged 381w (5.6 watts/kg) for 20 minutes..."

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/07/training-center/on-the-bike/tour-de-france-training-plan-take-a-regeneration-week_296558

mugwump

Jul 23, 2013 at 02:55 AM

kieranleahy said:

mugwump said:

And I do wonder about Dan Martin calling himself Irish. Nicholas Roche, while born in France, seems to have gone to school in Dublin.

@mugwump and @ian - fairly well placed to comment on this as this is exactly what I did back in the day...I am born and grew up in the UK but my father's born in Ireland, so I qualified for an Irish passport and thus the right to ride for them. I was too old and not fast enough at the time to qualify for the UK track team when I got into track racing and the Irish offered a chance to ride international races etc. and lacked anyone better than me. Cynical? Yes, a little. But both parties ultimately benefited. Pretty much the same scenario as Dan Martin, Matt Brammier and other "plastic paddies" (as they get coined).

As for "acceptance", I rode for an Irish club and had an Irish sponsor and manager, but tbh, never really felt "accepted" within Irish cycling circles, essentially because I don't have the accent (I was known as "the Brit", ha!). You gradually got more accepted the better you got, but there were always people who didn't (haters gonna hate, yo), as well as those who just didn't care.

With such a nomadic nation like the Irish (long history of migrating back and forth for work, particularly to and from the UK), it works both ways too; funny story - I was at a Irish Cycling Federation dinner with a few Irish friends in 2011 when one of them was joking about the fact that I wasn't Irish. A second guy then pointed out that he (first guy) was actually born in the UK too, only raised in Ireland, just like he was. We then realized that the most "Irish" of us was the fourth friend, who was born and bred in Ireland, but whose grandfather was Lebanese...

I'm sure Martin is slightly more accepted than me cos a) he's Stephen Roche's nephew and b) he's very good.

As for Froome - I agree with Ian re the Empire roots. I don't think people in the UK care too much as long as they're successful and also can endear themselves with the public. In the 1990s there was a Canadian tennis player called Greg Rusedski who claimed UK citizenship for the purposes of sport, only no-one really liked him cos a) he wasn't that good and b) didn't have much character.

And I guess unless you're some sort of indigenous person, nationalities are ultimately artificial anyway. Not that here is the place to debate that of course, but just to try to sound clever really, haha.

"plastic paddies" that's a new one.

You're fitting in just fine here, regardless of which passport you use. Fast, nice, more character than Rusedski.

Maybe the lack of character is why we Americans should have traded Levi Leipheimer for someone else years ago.

Mark Clifford

Jul 23, 2013 at 03:17 AM

kind of off topic, but who knew that richie porte was such a weird-looking fellow under his helmet? i mean, he kinda looks handsome with the helmet and shades, but when the lid comes off it's almost shocking.

dstearns

Jul 23, 2013 at 05:19 PM

First I'm hearing about this - black light blood treatments?

Whatever it is supposed to do - Kittel was just cleared, after the CAS ruled it's not considered doping. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cas-rules-uv-light-blood-treatments-in-germany-were-not-doping

If it's not doping - what the hell is it? Clearly it was designed to convey some kind of competitive advantage, right? After all - it only took me about 30 seconds to find evidence that Discovery Channel used to do it, too:

black light play ideas.jpg

kieranleahy

Jul 23, 2013 at 05:26 PM

@mugwump - thanks! I'll try and maintain all three traits

Btw, I hope I didn't sound too much of a mercenary in that post! I had always been proud of being part Irish (whatever that means), so it was kinda cool to be able to make the most of it! Oh, and handy having two passports as well...

Lol re Leipheimer...If only the US had had somebody with more attitude, more brash, maybe from Texas or something? Oh wait...

eloy

Jul 23, 2013 at 05:32 PM

One of my favorites photos of cycling ever.

Svein Tuft, at the 2008 Beijing Olympics Time Trial. His tattoo: we will never be here again.

--

Jules

Jul 23, 2013 at 05:36 PM

@Eloy, totally agree.

Jules

Jul 23, 2013 at 05:55 PM

dstearns said:

First I'm hearing about this - black light blood treatments?

Whatever it is supposed to do - Kittel was just cleared, after the CAS ruled it's not considered doping. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cas-rules-uv-light-blood-treatments-in-germany-were-not-doping

If it's not doping - what the hell is it? Clearly it was designed to convey some kind of competitive advantage, right? After all - it only took me about 30 seconds to find evidence that Discovery Channel used to do it, too:

Go back to November 2012 in the Professional Doper thread... if I recall it was debunked.

Jules

Oct 23, 2013 at 11:45 PM

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2013/10/23/5015904/2014-tour-goes-to-hell

Jules

Jun 28, 2014 at 09:26 AM

Nifty.

http://www.roadid.com/Win#/