Kissena Forum Archive

Watts in the Bank (aka the school of marginal gains)

176 comments · 2101 views
I've been meaning to start such a thread for some time.  The Jules-posted chart on aero gains put me over the edge.

Basically, it's easy to laugh at the idea of saving 1 watt (1w).  But even that can add up to big gains.  A long time ago, I calculated that if I saved .5w of mechanical drag, I'd save roughly 1cm a second.  3600cm an hour.  Do that for every moving part and your clothing and the savings can be even larger.

But the specific bit of knowledge that caused me to start this was about shoe covers.

The research on the benefits of shoe covers is equivocal.

On the one hand, here is a summation of the great Chester Kyle's research

http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/aero/aerodynamics.htm

It's pretty old, from the the '80s, but many still put stock in it.

On the other, Gilbertini has research that indicates shoe covers slow you down.

http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs-wm/16686.pdf

And speedplay did some research several years ago that demonstrated their pedals were the most aero.  Though I bet the Keywin folks would dispute it.
here are some sites for research

http://www.friction-facts.com/

http://www.biketechreview.com

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

http://www.analyticcycling.com/

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/
From what I understand shoe covers that have been designed with a trip line to detach air are fast (British Cycling, Garmin Sharp), a regular Lycra/Spandex booty can be slower.

Shoe covers that go past mid calf are banned, so there must be a drag advantage over bare skin.

image
Ok, so our champ-sys shoe covers are worthless. Duly noted.

I'll be bringing my skinsuits and deep section wheels to this weekend's crits, but I'll leave the shoe covers at home... maybe just put them in the trash.
I can't find it (see my other post) but you can't talk about marginal gains without also taking into consideration the speeds in question.

All the aero kit in the world isn't going to move the needle on a 22mph ride - relative to things like weight, fitness, skills (pack, cornering, etc)


Jules said:

All the aero kit in the world isn't going to move the needle on a 22mph ride - relative to things like weight, fitness, skills (pack, cornering, etc)


says the guy whose frame is claimed to save 18w at 22mph.

@Vlad, the basic premise is a booty increases surface area and therefore total drag (so theoretically squeezing into a smaller shoe for a TT will save you time too). If a booty is very tight fitting, thin, nonporous, aero material and/or designed to detach air, it will be faster.

This paper tests a standard Lycra cover:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/gxhmxvhgxizksxg/Giuseppe+et+al+(2010)+-+shoe+aerodynamics.pdf

Here's the cutting edge NZ wind tunnel in effect:
http://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/Science-Stories/Cycling-Aerodynamics/Sci-Media/Video/The-wind-tunnel
And how they test athletes:
http://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/Science-Stories/Cycling-Aerodynamics/Sci-Media/Video/Testing-aerodynamics-of-elite-cyclists (I'm sure the rider just chucked on the sponsors jersey in this example).
They conclude that a proper shoe cover, like a Jonathan Smart or a Pearl Izumi saves watts.

image
^ Dan Martin's shoe covers
image
^ Smart shoe coversimage

These are all for a rider doing 50 kph (or just over 31 mph) for 48 minutes. 

I doubt I could ride for 48 seconds at 31 mph.
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These are all for a rider doing 50 kph (or just over 31 mph) for 48 minutes. 

I doubt I could ride for 48 seconds at 31 mph.
The drag difference is smaller, but the longer you're out there, the time saved could be greater.  Think of it this way.  1w of savings to you means much more than it does to Cancellara  

At 20mph, wind resistance is in the neighborhood of 80% of what you're overcoming, so even at this "low" speed, you're still fighting lots of wind.

Tom Anhalt's Crr data

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AuJYBb4ZA401dEZmVm43Wkcwd3IzeFZqWXZaUWRDNUE&gid=1

Al Morrison's Crr data
http://www.biketechreview.com/index.php/tires/rolling-resistance
Six watts from the right chain lube?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/02/bikes-and-tech/six-watts-from-lube-boulder-lab-separates-fact-from-friction-fiction_264446
Do you have the copy of the lube comparison to share?
eragot said:
Do you have the copy of the lube comparison to share?
I emailed the guy who runs the lab about buying all of his data for sharing with the entire club. If it's a reasonable price, we'll get it and share it here.
eragot said:
Do you have the copy of the lube comparison to share?
I emailed the guy who runs the lab about buying all of his data for sharing with the entire club. If it's a reasonable price, we'll get it and share it here.
I bought it. I also worked with the guy on a chain test I did.  As I want to respect his IP, I'll write that if Jeff's effort fails, I believe the data is worth the money. 
would you then share the best lube for everyday use and racing?
Nix that: http://www.lillylube.com/uploads/Link_to_Velo_Article.pdf

The best lube for everyday use and racing? It's called hard work Eric.
eragot said:
would you then share the best lube for everyday use and racing?

Ambergris
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2465903
This isn't necessary watts in the bank, but something that isn't sapping watts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkmCLOjk2h8

@Marc & JP, no word yet on the ponytail, but your respective beard and 'stache are not holding you back. 

Dan, this reminds me of one year at Fitchburg, while lined up for the Pro 1/2 TT start, a Mercury team director, with a thick European accent starts to lecture me about my hair and Fignon and blah, blah, blah. All the while I'm thinking, I'll f-ing shave my head off if you gave me a contract.
That's not a very aero position. That is a 'going slow' riding position. Aerodynamics matter more when you're going fast.
Vlad, I am scared that riding with your eyes forward is you 'going slow' position. 

I prefer to see where I am going so my chin/head will be aligned about the same way most of the time. On the other hand my 'staring at my stem like froome gives me more watts' and my 'please get a flat so I no longer have to suffer' positions I do look down a lot more, so that may be more aero.
His arms are locked out for chrissakes! - J D Salinger
Specialized is at it again.  More wind tunnel research for real-life drag comparisons.

http://youtu.be/T53oGGyl6qg
Here is one for JP and Marc & of course the ladies with long hair.

http://youtu.be/Lf5jL__kws0

JP, I'll totally braid your hair before the next race. We can talk about boys too.

NTYC (not that you care), but I sometimes do braid my hair but...it kind of takes a while, so I've been a bun dude mostly...now I'm totally in, FULL BRAID all the time. 14 seconds faster!
Dudes, this is also wicked awesome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p8SdRRe1fo#t=192

JP, I'll totally braid your hair before the next race. We can talk about boys too.

NTYC (not that you care), but I sometimes do braid my hair but...it kind of takes a while, so I've been a bun dude mostly...now I'm totally in, FULL BRAID all the time. 14 seconds faster!
Curly hair is more coarse than straight hair.  As such, the follicles create a boundary layer (think golf ball) and smooth out the airflow over the strands. What I'm saying is my hair is faster than hers.