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Kissena Coaching Program - Velocious Coaching

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TimCusick
Feb 27, 2016 at 12:25 PM
Scott,

The program you signed up for is team coaching which is a training plan generally designed around the team season focused on achieving performance results in team events.  Analysis is not included.  That being said,  I don't mind helping here I can and answer questions where I can but want to make sure I balance expectations when I do.

So, to help you, you need to load your FTP test.  In the account, that workout is now loaded and will help me.  I did look at your other workouts and the HR looks pretty good according to those.  You set it at 185 max and 178 threshold. If 185 is truly you max, the 178 threshold would suggest you have some pretty high fitness and years of training so might think a tad high.

Load the FTP test and I will look.  In the FTP test of 20 minutes all out, you can look at the average for the last 12 minutes, usually spot on HR Threshold.
Scott Kuhlke
Feb 27, 2016 at 06:38 PM
Thank you Tim for the update above.  Hopefully my thoughts below will be beneficial to the team as well.

I'm looking for some guidance, and confused of the difference between Threshold Heart Rate and Mak Heart Rate.  I've gone through the help guide of Training Peaks.  I assume LTHR is the same as Threshold Heart Rate.  There isn't a guide that specifies how to calculate the Max Heart Rate.  Further thoughts below:

Threshold Heart Rate:  The last time that Training Peaks calculated my THR was in November after a cross race.  It was 181.  So, should the value be 181 rather than 178?  I don't know how to calculate it otherwise as I haven't had a 45 - 60 minute effort in the recent month or so to calculate it.

Max Heart Rate: Based on the rule of thumb of 220 - Age = 185, I chose 185. I know that probably isn't correct.  Is the actual MHR the max heart rate achieved during an FTP test?  If so, that would be 193.

Lastly, I don't know how to load this specific test Training Peaks, although my data is in my account (test was done Feb 17).  Please let me know if you can see it or there is a way to specifically load the data.  

thank you again for your assistance.
eloy
Feb 27, 2016 at 08:10 PM
In many many ways, your max heart rate doesn't matter. So, if you find it confusing, simply don't worry much about it.

Use the threshold that you got after the cross race of 181bpm, and set your HR zones based on that.
eloy
Feb 27, 2016 at 08:27 PM
Went out and did the scheduled test.

Judging by how lazy, tired, and uninspired I felt this morning, was concerned I would not be able to reach the previous numbers.

Instead, ended about 20 w or so higher, and almost basically where I was last summer. 

Thanks Tim, looking forward to more and what's to come this season.

Cheers!!


TimCusick
Feb 27, 2016 at 08:45 PM
Scott,

I can help.  The answer is pretty simple:

Max Heart Rate - is just that, your maximum heart rate.  What is the highest you have every seen.  You can test this, go ride at endurance pace, then explode as hard as you can, all out for 1:00min or until you totally blow.  Look file, max heart rate will be in there.  Do that on tow separate days to ensure numbers same,

Threshold Heart - this a little harder but for simplicity, it is your avg heart rate when at your lactate threshold (this definition is the simple version).  You can get this by looking at your average heart rate for the last 12-15 minutes off your twenty minute test.

Don't trust the TP auto numbers, just either load the file and I can show you, or read the numbers off it.

For loading the test, where did you record data?  What device are you using?  Once you load it I will make short desktop video and load here so others can see how to use it.

For the relationship between the two, my point is that as an athlete accumulates years of training and stamina, their Threshold HR and their Max heart rate get closer together.   

Scott Kuhlke
Feb 27, 2016 at 08:51 PM
Thanks Tim.  The data was recorded by my Garmin 510.  I upload it through Garmin Connect, and then it auto updates into training Peaks.  I can download the data from Garmin connect and send it to you via email. 
TimCusick
Feb 28, 2016 at 12:17 PM
Scott,

Got your email.  The simplest way to get your data into TrainingPeaks as agarmin user is link your account to Garmin connect, then it will auto sync, you do not need to do anything, it will just work.

Simple process, here is link:   https://home.trainingpeaks.com/garminconnect
Bruce van-Schalkwyk
Feb 28, 2016 at 08:29 PM
Hey Scott,
I'm assuming Tim may have gotten you set on your HR zones, but wanted to add, in case others have questions regarding analysis of their tests and zones.

I looked at your 2/17 ride on Strava.  I don't see any power data, so really this is an LTHR ride instead of FTP, because it's establishing Heart Rate instead of Power, but the technique to get both is the same.

From what I see, your 20 minute hard effort looks to be around the 37 min mark to the 57 min mark?  It's tough to tell because of the different laps on the ride.  But I see an uptick in your HR, starting around 177, going until the peak, around 192.  (I see it hits 193, but the higher numbers are mostly 192).

It looks like your HR is in the mid 180s and then moves into the low 190s.  The basic math for the ride would be:
177 + 192 = 369 / 2 = 184.5.  Let's round down to 184. 

I think 184-186 would be pretty accurate for that time-frame.  

There are a couple of things you could do, though I don't think you need to.  You could reload the file, or work on the one you loaded, and Strava has a neat editing feature where you can cut parts of it out. You could edit everything except the 20 minute segment, give or take, and Strava will automatically calculate the average HR for you.  Or, as Time suggests, the last 12 minutes of that hard effort.  TP probably has this feature but I haven't used it.

Also, the next time you do an FTP/LTHR test, remember to hit the lap button to start that 20 minute period, and again when you finish.  That way, you'll have an average for that segment, instead of having to edit your ride down.

So, with 184 as your LTHR, you can set your Zones.

Zone 1  121-152 Recovery
Zone 2  153-164 Aerobic
Zone 3  165-172 Tempo
Zone 4  173-183 Subthreshold
Zone 5a 184-187 Super-Threshold
Zone 5b 188-194 Aerobic Capacity
Zone 5c 195-201 Anaerobic Capacity

The numbers you want to memorize will be Tempo, 165-172, where zone 4 ends, 183, and where Zone 2 starts, 153.
Once you've got those numbers down, you can hit the park for Tempo, Sweet Spot, and Vo2 max efforts, keeping an eye on HR so you don't go too easy or too hard.  It's harder to do this in the park than on the trainer because of the terrain, but cadence and speed are generally good numbers to use when keeping HR within a zone.

If you think your LTHR should be higher, or lower, just adjust the numbers.  You can use TP for this.
Click on your name, settings, on the left: Zones
Put in your Threshold HR, 184
Choose Type: Lactate Threshold
Choose Method: Joel Friel for Cycling(7)
Hit calculate.
If you change your HR, just plug in the new number and redo it, and it will give you the Friel 7 zones.

Keep in mind these numbers are guidelines, not hard cutoffs.
JohnOlsson
Mar 01, 2016 at 05:48 PM
Anyone recommend a peaks training program to follow during racing season? My winter program is winding down  
David Yang
Mar 01, 2016 at 05:48 PM
Today's workout frightens me.  Sprint?  Then 115% threshold?  Then sprint again?  Repeat up to 8 times if that's even possible??

I'm readying my vomit bucket.
JillWhite
Mar 01, 2016 at 08:38 PM
JohnOlsson said:
Anyone recommend a peaks training program to follow during racing season? My winter program is winding down  
John, we have a program coached by Tim and you can either jump in now and get the remainder of the session for free, or wait until next quarter (end of this month/beginning of April) and get that session free.  Otherwise, each quarter costs $50.  https://kissenacycling.wufoo.com/forms/kissena-peaks-coaching-starting-december-28th/
Scott Kuhlke
Mar 01, 2016 at 09:51 PM
Bruce van-Schalkwyk said:
Hey Scott,
I'm assuming Tim may have gotten you set on your HR zones, but wanted to add, in case others have questions regarding analysis of their tests and zones.


.....
Bruce and Tim, thanks for getting me on the right track!  hopefully this helps others on the team as well.
TimCusick
Mar 01, 2016 at 10:30 PM
Cool!  I will look at files tonight tomorrow and comment. 
JillWhite
Mar 02, 2016 at 12:16 AM
Oops!  realized that I did not understand the workout until after I was done.  Instead of doing the VO2max intervals, I went straight to the race winning intervals and only did 4 total.  It still took me an hour to do the workout though.  Next time I'll be ready!
TimCusick
Mar 02, 2016 at 12:38 AM
Scott - look your file for Race Sim Day....Max HR and your LTHR probably higher, trying to find a good steady effort.



David Yang
Mar 02, 2016 at 12:57 AM
Tried to do 5 sets but my good friend Ralph paid a visit.
Jeff Condon
Mar 02, 2016 at 01:03 AM
@TimCusick  Could you clarify today's intervals. I thought we were supposed to do 4 x 3:40 intervals consisting of a 30 second sprint, 3min of VO2 Max and ending in a 10 second sprint.  Is this correct? 
eloy
Mar 02, 2016 at 03:14 AM

  • 30 seconds sprint at 200% of FTP
  • 3:00 minutes at 105% to 115% of FTP
  • 10 seconds sprint all out (try to hit 200% FTP again)
  • rest 5 to 6 minutes
  • repeat 5 to 8 times
  • cool down
  • go home and drink all the chocolate milk and granola possible
At least, that's how I read it... ;)
TimCusick
Mar 02, 2016 at 11:23 AM
Who survived?  Bet some got pretty close!!  Tell me if you hit it and I will look and post some review

Scott Kuhlke
Mar 02, 2016 at 12:25 PM
only did four of these things (sad face) ... next time I'll press for more.  But ouch.
Scott Kuhlke
Mar 02, 2016 at 12:37 PM
TimCusick said:
Scott - look your file for Race Sim Day....Max HR and your LTHR probably higher, trying to find a good steady effort.



Thanks Tim, I'll use this for future review of my max efforts in upcoming races.  I'm looking forward to measuring in power hopefully in a couple of weeks.
JillWhite
Mar 02, 2016 at 12:44 PM
@TimCusick
I think we all did this workout wrong.  I warmed up and then jumped straight into the race winning intervals (did 4) and ignored the fact that you said to first do 4 intervals at straight VO2max and 5 minutes endurance before doing the race winning intervals.  It looks like that also is what the others did as well.

Were we supposed to first do 4 VO2max intervals and then do 5-8 race winning intervals in the MS?


David Yang
Mar 02, 2016 at 02:00 PM
@JillSink I read that as the 3:40 VO2max intervals are the race winning intervals?

JillWhite
Mar 02, 2016 at 02:47 PM
David Yang said:
@JillSink I read that as the 3:40 VO2max intervals are the race winning intervals?

Yes, that is what I read too, until I reread it after my workout and gave it to Jeff to read.  What is says is to first do 4 intervals at VO2max for 3:40, then 5 mins endurance, then race winning intervals (5-8 total), because you're never in VO2max during the race intervals.  It's either Threshold or anaerobic, but I guess it averages to be a VO2max interval.  

So, Tim, can you please clarify exactly what we were supposed to do during the workout yesterday?  Thanks!
eloy
Mar 02, 2016 at 03:37 PM
I guess I should let Tim clarify...

but, peeps, really, this is what it says:
  • Warm up.
  • Ride 5ish minutes at endurance
  • then do the race winning intervals -- depending on your plan, TP suggests 4 or 6, but less than 8. Each interval adds up to 3:40 of effort:
    • 30 seconds sprint at 200% of FTP
    • 3:00 minutes at 105% to 115% of FTP
    • 10 seconds sprint all out (try to hit 200% FTP again)
    • rest 5 to 6 minutes
    • repeat up to 8 times
  • Cool down
  • Eat all the cheese and honey vanilla yogurt you can find.
They'll look something like this:


JillWhite
Mar 02, 2016 at 03:47 PM
Okay, this is the copy of what it said:

MS: Race Winning Vo2Max Intervals. Complete 4 x 3:40 at VO2MAX (Power Z5, HR Z5 RPE 6-7) intervals. Ride endurance pace for 5 minutes, then get ready for the “Race Winning” intervals. Try for at least five efforts and up to eight in one session. Each interval begins with a 30-second sprint (15 seconds out of the saddle), and you must average 200% of your Threshold wattage in these first 30 seconds, with a peak of at least 300%. Then ride for 3 minutes and really hammer it at 105-115% of your Threshold wattage (or the best speed you think you could maintain for an hour), and finish with an out-of-the-saddle 10-second burst after the 3 minutes is over, trying to reach 200% of your threshold wattage again (or 28-30 mph). Rest for 5-6 minutes between each interval.

I think the confusing part is that it said to do 4 x 3:40, but then it says to do at least 5 and up to 8.

Let's let Tim tell us exactly what he meant ;)
eloy
Mar 02, 2016 at 06:12 PM
I read those as headline/Sub-headline of sorts...

MS: Race Winning Vo2Max Intervals.

Complete 4 x 3:40 at VO2MAX (Power Z5, HR Z5 RPE 6-7) intervals. 

Ride endurance pace for 5 minutes, then get ready for the “Race Winning” intervals. Try for at least five efforts and up to eight in one session. Each interval begins...

------

English is my 2nd language, so who knows.
For me, however, the eat cheese part is the important part.
Bruce van-Schalkwyk
Mar 02, 2016 at 08:47 PM
And these are the instructions using typoglycemia, where the first and last letter is the same but they are jumbled inside.  Our minds can still read it.

MS: Rcae Wnnniig Vo2Max Iralntevs. Cmplteoe 4 x 3:40 at VO2MAX (Pewor Z5, HR Z5 RPE 6-7) ivntealrs. Rdie eduanrcne pcae for 5 muients, tehn get radey for the “Rcae Wninnig” iarnlevts. Try for at lesat fvie eftrfos and up to ehigt in one siossen. Ecah itnrvael bgines wtih a 30-soecnd sinrpt (15 sdeocns out of the sadlde), and you msut araegve 200% of yuor Trhehslod wgaatte in thsee frist 30 seondcs, wtih a paek of at lesat 300%. Tehn rdie for 3 munteis and raelly heammr it at 105-115% of yuor Telhosrhd wttagae (or the bset seepd you tihnk you cuold mtainain for an huor), and fiisnh wtih an out-of-the-sddlae 10-snceod bsrut aetfr the 3 muintes is oevr, trynig to rcaeh 200% of yuor thehsolrd wattgae agian (or 28-30 mph). Rset for 5-6 miutens bteeewn ecah itveanrl.

Because training is fun, but interpreting training instructions is funner.
Scott Kuhlke
Mar 02, 2016 at 09:02 PM
Please tell me you had an algorithm / program for converting the above ... 
David Yang
Mar 02, 2016 at 09:21 PM
Bruce lives in Brooklyn, and if etsy has taught me anything it's that everything that comes from Brooklyn is handmade and custom curated. Unless of course Bruce painstakingly created the algorithm/program for the exclusive goal of posting that single comment and then wiping it from his drive and reformatting it so it can never be used again.