Kissena Forum Archive

Feb 09, 2017 at 02:34 AM

Had to do yesterday's EDP Sweet Spot workout just now and it was one of the hardest workouts I had to do mentally. Holy shit.

Feb 09, 2017 at 07:35 AM

Because of all the commercializations of "fitness" we tend to forget that performance training is both physical and mental. The harder you suffer in training, the more prepared you are to suffer in performance. Don't get me wrong, not saying everything should be painful but when time to train hard, give it your all. Mental toughness wins races.

EPD is hard, mentally you want to shut down right after the third sprint (which doesn't look too hard on paper, till you do it :-)) . The ability to mentally and physically push through and recover at higher power output is a difference maker, then is when races are won! Fatigue resistance for the win!

Nice work!

Feb 12, 2017 at 01:29 AM

@TimCusick

I just noticed that Sunday's "Trainer Force" workout does not include the length of time for the FORCE intervals. Can't decide if you are aiming for 25 or 50 minutes of total time a L4 in MS2. Since it is early in this build cycle I am guessing 5 minutes per interval.

MS 2:
Using a similar big chain ring/trainer resistance combo as above, complete 5 FORCE intervals at your FTP Zone (Z4 000w-000w) at a cadence of 50-60 rpm with 5 minutes rest between. During the 5-minute rest, complete one fast pedal effort between minutes 3 and 4 of the recovery period. This fast pedal effort should be low power with little resistance; just focus on spin speed.

Feb 12, 2017 at 09:41 PM

I'm wondering the same thing @PatrickG.

Brendan Rigby

Feb 12, 2017 at 09:42 PM

David Yang said:

Had to do yesterday's EDP Sweet Spot workout just now and it was one of the hardest workouts I had to do mentally. Holy shit.

yeah i just did it and it was intense. the second FTP interval at around 4 minutes in i thought i was going to die...then sort of magically recovered...the physical recovery came before the mental recovery

question though about that workout. for the 12 second sprints, are those all out sprints (max possible 12 second power) or just z5 (max five minute or so, a bit faster)? i did them as z5 efforts, not FULL OUT sprints, and now i'm wondering if i cheated myself of some essential performance benefit from the workout?

also, +1 to patricks' question, what is this interval length on the FORCE effort? (and what is a FORCE effort?)

Feb 13, 2017 at 09:07 PM

Team - the EPD sprints are "self-regulating" :-) Do them hard but not killer hard....

Feb 13, 2017 at 09:10 PM

TimCusick said:

Team - the EPD sprints are "self-regulating" :-) Do them hard but not killer hard....

While you're at it, the description for EPD sprints alternates between referring to the rest between sprints as either 12 or 24 seconds. What did you intend (is one "better")?

Feb 13, 2017 at 09:11 PM

Sorry for slow reply on the Force intervals, missed the original post. The first set is just revolutions the second should be 5 x 5 minutes. Sorry about that!

Feb 16, 2017 at 02:52 AM

I totally failed at the 5 x 10min microbursts tonight. Like utterly and totally failed. Halfway through the second set I pulled the cord, my legs just froze up. I rested another 5 minutes and tried again and again my legs started seizing halfway through. I tried to loosen up another 5 minutes to try again and totally gave up after two 15 second intervals.

This is essentially a drill mimicking sprinting out of corners in a crit. If this were Harlem Skyscraper, I would have been thrown straight out of the back and pulled about 5 laps into the race. That is not a great feeling.

Feb 16, 2017 at 12:22 PM

If you never fail in a workout, you simply are not training hard enough.

The trick is learning from it. Was it just too much training load? Life stress? Poor nutrition over last few days (much more of a possible cause then people think)? How about your hydration levels, been drinking enough?

Failing is part of the game, learning from it is part of the success!

Feb 16, 2017 at 02:18 PM

Possibly poor nutrition and sleep, it's been a busy work week hence my doing the Tuesday workout on Wednesday.

But really I think the biggest challenge was not having done a workout like this in at least a year - i.e. I really need to do these sprint interval workouts more often. The watts aren't huge, but doing it 20x over the course of 10 minutes and then doing it over again 4 more times made it an impossible mountain to climb.

Would it not be as effective if I lower the watts from 180% to I don't know 150% of FTP? In real world numbers, I'd be going from 485 to 400 watts which sounds more doable.

To put it another way, what is more beneficial to the bottom line: Lowering a workout's intensity just enough to complete the entire thing or sticking with the intended intensity but failing halfway through?

eloy

Feb 16, 2017 at 04:30 PM

(completing the entire 10 minutes set multiple times is better)

microbursts are hard.

Tim might have other suggestions. But it only makes sense to start mellow, when I do them I don't target a specific wattage.

I simply go out and do 15 secs supah hard and 15 secs easy for ten minutes, regroup, and do them again.

Only later at home, I see what I actually did -- usually checking TSS --

you can build up to them too: If ten minutes seems to hard, change the set to be 8 minutes. If 5X is too much try 3X. Just aim to add the next time they are scheduled.

Feb 17, 2017 at 10:42 PM

Who's going TANning tomorrow?

Feb 17, 2017 at 11:18 PM

Eloy - good advice on the micros! This is the challenge of writing a group training plan, is a little more generic but if everyone learns to tweak and adjust, works great.

TAN tomorrow sounds awesome! Gloves are off for a little "throw down" pacing, I even ordered in some good weather! Enjoy!

BenFinoRadin

Feb 22, 2017 at 01:39 AM

Was sadly indoors for TAN day, and decided to just do FTP for 1 hour. So uhhhh… that was interesting

Feb 22, 2017 at 08:15 PM

Team,

Working on next cycling and thinking time to start asking about race season. Any big early season events coming? What about local Tuesday / Thursday night throw downs, they start soon?

Brendan Rigby

Feb 22, 2017 at 08:32 PM

3/11 is a big local (regional?) crit that many of us are doing, Grant's Tomb. my first race of the season will be 3/4 (that's the date, not the category) at Branchbrook, a flat park race that's really only got one turn. excited!!!!!!!!!!

i can't speak for others' goals but i think i'll be doing Floyd Bennet if I can manage to get out there, as well as Prospect Park / Central Park races. My mind is open to trying a stage race like Green Mountain as well, people say great things

Feb 22, 2017 at 08:54 PM

Branchbrook series starts March 4 and is on every Saturday for 5 weeks.
Prospect Park series starts March 26 and is dotted throughout the rest of the season
Brinkerhoff series is on Apr 8 and 15 (maybe more, but I can't find them).
Quabbin Resevoir Classic is Apr 29.
Orchard Beach crit is May 7.
Bear Mountain Classic is May 13.
Battenkill is May 20-21
Willmington Grand Prix (DE) is May 20

Feb 22, 2017 at 09:58 PM

Count me among those who will start the season at Branchbrook and Grant's Tomb.

You've got the right dates for Brinkerhoff, @DavidYang. Those are the only two, if I understand the BikeReg page correctly.

I haven't heard of any Kissenas planning to race Battenkill this year (possibly because it's now a grand fondo?) or the Wilmington Grand Prix.

Maybe I'll try to make it to Quabbin (I've heard good things), or maybe High Point Hill Climb is the thing to do.

There's a spate of crits in May and June throughout NYC and New Jersey that I understand are popular among the club, including Bound Brook, Tour of Somerville, Harlem Skyscraper Classic, and White Plains Downtown Criterium.

Killington Stage Race takes place Memorial Day weekend in Killington, Vermont. That looks like the earliest stage race around. Any Kissenas considering?

My personal early-season Leviathan: a three-stage race in my hometown, the Joe Martin Stage Race, on the weekend of April 1.

Feb 28, 2017 at 09:42 PM

@TimCusick

After noticing that the workouts you posted are heavy on short duration intensity (AC) I went back and looked at the annual season planner you posted in September. I assume it's a template and not rigid, but was wondering if we were in power build 2.

I ask because I am not racing for another month and want to work on threshold for TT events as well as NP/AC/FRC for rad races. Would it make more sense to follow the current plan and add tempo/sweet spot/threshold workouts after the current build cycle or to include more of them now?

Given that i only stopped racing CX in early January, and have only been on the current plan for a little over a month I didn't feel like I have much FTP work in my legs.

Thanks

Mar 01, 2017 at 12:02 PM

Great question! This is really the challenge of a general plan. Yes, the planner was a general that would / could be tweaked as we know but I do try to follow. This month I added the intensity for two reasons. 1 as you stated, to begin to develop more "race power" and prepare for the season. The 2nd was in reviewing the training, we had a large portion of aerobic development and I am concerned that some are members are as aerobically fit (based on hour limitations) as they will be and working a cycle to raise VO2max (max aerobic) will raise the roof and allow for some more room to grow. I did this through the use of some max aerobic intervals. For TT, it is a tough choice, you can still raise the roof with this type of work and it will help, but need to also focus on FTP / SST style work. I would replace once a week (maybe twice) with a FTP or SST workout from the past, just make sure you up the intervals. Do for FTP work, try 3 x 15 at this point in season and for SST work should be a good 3 x 20 or more.

JohnOlsson

Mar 01, 2017 at 03:10 PM

Did anyone else find it difficult to do high cadence out of the saddle today for 10 min???

Disclosure...I'm around 185-190lbs...haha

BenFinoRadin

Mar 01, 2017 at 05:17 PM

Wait wait wait… is that what is meant by "standing"??

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5019667/uploads/editor/rs/6shpmwpunemt.gif

@TimCusick can you confirm?

Mar 01, 2017 at 05:52 PM

Seconded. These directions are difficult to parse. What is the structure of each interval? For how long does one interval last? How many intervals are we to complete? And what training zone(s) are we supposed to target when?

DRILLS: On flats in headwind or gentle climbs, execute 2 x 10 minute standing "HIGH CADENCE" then 1 minute standing "LOW CADENCE (alternate for 10 minutes) spin at zone 2 with 3-5 minutes rest between based off terrain. Self selected cadence in in rest period. TARGET: Tempo PW Zone 3 REST: 5 minutes between interval sets if more than one set

Mar 01, 2017 at 06:03 PM

looks like something got cut out of that, sorry about that. It is 10 minutes of standing, alternating between high cadence and low cadence. The idea is to stand for 10 full minutes (hard) and alternate the fast / slow pedaling cadence. This is hard to execute and the fatigue grows quickly.

Mar 10, 2017 at 02:32 AM

@TimCusick

Was curious to get your thoughts on how best to train for the finishing effort for one of our local park races. We regularly race in Prospect Park which has a finish that follows 400m after a 550 meter 3% climb. This is preceded with about 3 minutes of fighting for position following a descent. Of course this comes after 30+ miles of racing on a 3.4 mile loop with multiple sprint point competitions to keep the race lively. I should add that the race often ends in a sprint finish.

So at the end of a race we are usually at or above threshold fighting for position for several minutes followed by at least a minute climbing at L5 with a brief respite of about 20 seconds (usually at threshold) followed by 30 a second all out sprint. The times listed vary somewhat but are pretty close. I don’t live close enough to the park to replicate the efforts.

If I was trying to replicate the effort in a workout, I would imagine completing repeats of L5 efforts followed by sprints. Or maybe better yet start with an L4 effort followed by L5 then a sprint.

Would be beneficial to try and replicate the physiological strain of this specific finish or am I overthinking this? Would it be just as beneficial to complete these efforts in separate workouts? What do you think?

Thanks

Mar 12, 2017 at 12:27 PM

Patrick,

First, think about the demand of the event. You give a good overview so as best I can interpret, the demand in order:

3 min FTP but highly variable
1 Min Climb
20 sec recover
30 sec all out sprint

When you look at that the key way you produce energy for most of it is anaerobically (Functional Reserve Capacity (FRC) or Anaerobic Work Capacity (AWC)). This means that system needs developed. More on that in a sec.

With the event demand clear, you need to review your abilities. Are you stronger at FTP then FRC (meaning is your aerobic ability stronger then your anaerobic ability)? How much is the gap? in WKO you can measure FTP and FRC but in the absence of such measurements, need to just go by feel.

So know you know the basics. Target the biggest limiter that matches the demands of the event. I am going to assume (based off the way you wrote the post) that the limiter is not keeping up to the end or the three minute FTP, it is the ability to "go hard / sprint" after that.

So two things about specificity. First, build the specific energy system needed. So in this case you need FRC (AWC)....more anaerobic power. Doing workouts specifically focusing on anaerobic power (not capacity even though that would help, better focusing on anaerobic power here) would seem to be a main driver. Raise your FRC as high as possible to achieve success. These should not be done on course or as a course mimic, should be done at max power outputs. Simple workout. 6 - 10 x 45 seconds with a long rest between (7-12 minutes as needed). The power target is max, kill each one! Best way to raise anaerobic power.

Now if you fatigue out in the 3 minutes of FTP leading in and have nothing left, focus on anaerobic capacity. Trying doing 2 minutes at level 5 with 1-2 minute recovery, repeat 5 times for a set and do 2-3 sets in a workout. This will help you handle the FTP time as a lot of that is drawing down FRC and not letting you recover enough.

Finally, mimicking the specific course is not that big of a deal (doing on the course is for strategy, tactics and preparation reasons). The 20 second rest mimic would actually hurt your progress.

Just my thoughts

Mar 12, 2017 at 12:32 PM

<div class=" Spoiler">I was just writing to someone about energy systems and how they work, this will help some so figure I would copy and paste here for you to think about:<br><div class=" Quote">-------<br><div class=" Spoiler"><span>So, since you will need some morning coffee, lets talk energy from shorter efforts.<br></span><span>This is the classic approach towards energy utilization as I see it. &nbsp;You can range the time a little different and add some additional sources but this is pretty much the way it happens for&nbsp;shorter efforts. &nbsp;<br></span><span>So now think about energy systems as a whole, from a high level. &nbsp;You make energy in three ways: Alactic, Latic, Aerobic<br></span><span>Alactic<br></span><span>Latic&nbsp;</span><span><br></span><span><br></span><span><br></span><ul class=" Spoiler Quote Spoiler"><li class=" Spoiler Quote Spoiler"><span>Anaerobic Capacity -&nbsp;refers to the body's ability to regenerate ATP using the glycolytic system (again reference by you and your point)&nbsp;</span></li></ul><ul class=" Spoiler Quote Spoiler"><li class=" Spoiler Quote Spoiler"><span>•Anaerobic Power -&nbsp;the body's ability to regenerate ATP using the phosphagen system</span></li></ul><ul class=" Spoiler Quote Spoiler"><li class=" Spoiler Quote Spoiler">Phosphagen - the use of creatine phosphate stored in the muscles to generate energy (ATP).</li></ul><span>Aerobic&nbsp;</span><ul class=" Spoiler Quote Spoiler"><li class=" Spoiler Quote Spoiler"><span class="post-font-size-small">utilizes&nbsp;proteins, fats and carbohydrate (glycogen) for resynthesising ATP.</span></li></ul><ul class=" Spoiler Quote Spoiler"><li class=" Spoiler Quote Spoiler"><span class="post-font-size-small">Oxidative&nbsp;</span></li></ul><ul class=" Spoiler Quote Spoiler"><li class=" Spoiler Quote Spoiler">Glucose + Fats + Amino Acids + Oxygen &nbsp;= Krebs Cycle (>ATP)</li></ul><ul class=" Spoiler Quote Spoiler"><li class=" Spoiler Quote Spoiler"><span class="post-font-size-small">How hard dictates the mix</span></li></ul></div></div></div><div><span>	•&nbsp;1 to 4 seconds: &nbsp;Anaerobic from&nbsp;ATP (in muscles)<br></span></div><div><span>	•&nbsp;4 to 10 seconds:&nbsp;Anaerobic from&nbsp;ATP + CP<br></span></div><div><span>	•&nbsp;10 to 45 seconds:&nbsp;Anaerobic from&nbsp;ATP + CP + Muscle glycogen<br></span></div><div><span>	•&nbsp;45 to 120 seconds:&nbsp;Anaerobic & Lactic from&nbsp;Muscle glycogen<br></span></div><div><span>	•&nbsp;120 to 240 seconds: &nbsp;Aerobic & Anaerobic from&nbsp;Muscle glycogen + lactic acid<br></span></div><div><span>	•&nbsp;240 to 600 seconds: &nbsp;Aerobic &&nbsp;Muscle glycogen + fatty acids<br></span></div><div><br></div><div><span>	•&nbsp;5-8 seconds - stored ATP (first few seconds) and minor CP (resynthesis of CP but ONLY to CP is depleted )&nbsp;<br></span></div><div><span>	•&nbsp;Sprint power - built by short, high intensity sprints with 90% power recovery rest<br></span></div><div><span>	•&nbsp;Once CP depleted&nbsp;<br></span></div><div><span>	•&nbsp;Stored glucose (glycogen) drives the boat (your point on glycolysis)&nbsp;<br></span></div><div><span>	•&nbsp;Breakdown of glucose produces lactate and hydrogen ions - here is a point of discussion for us, it is NOT the lactate that limits, it is the hydrogen ions and results of them being in&nbsp;the muscle<br></span></div><div><span>	•&nbsp;Two ways of looking at this anaerobic system&nbsp;<br></span></div><div><span>	•&nbsp;Glycolytic vs. Phosphagen&nbsp;<br></span></div><div><span>		•&nbsp;Glycolytic - the breakdown of glucose by enzymes into pyruvic and lactic acids with the release of energy (ATP).</span></div><div><br></div><div><span class="post-font-size-small"><br></span></div><div><span class="post-font-size-small">Krebs Cycle is Latic or Anaerobic and Aerobic cycle:</span></div><div><div></div></div>