I have a question about relativity and power. I've just started the "Time Challenged Cyclist" plan in the hopes that by March/April work will allow me the time to join the group training. I took my scheduled FTP test today on my trainer and (I say this with no sort of bravado or boasting) averaged significantly higher than my numbers in the past (299W average a year ago to 319W average today) and I have not been doing any sort of training that would warrant the increase which makes me wonder if it's an issue with my trainer. That said, I don't reeeallly want to enter that cave of pain again just to assess the accuracy of my equipment. Given that my trainer setup is largely static, I don't think training with this new FTP will be detrimental to my training or my health if the numbers are indeed wrong given that it's all relative. HOWEVER, I'm planning on upgrading my bike and acquiring a real power meter, what should I do once I have a different measurement system, use the current numbers or just do a retest?

I'd retest 

@Nathaniel Picard Busky  Each power meter has +/- difference, and if you want to avoid over/under training.

For example, my power meter is about 3% lower than my trainers power meter. This isn't a huge difference, but if you are type A like myself you will hate it.

Think about how much fun it is to suffer and that will make you want to do a retest.

I agree, each power device has a +/- difference...so when you start riding your new bike with the new power meter, retest.  Testing is training, training is testing....is an old Andy Coggan quote.  Everyone training seriously should be testing regularly not just once a season.  

@Nathaniel Picard Busky

Like everyone said every PM is different. 
As long you tested and train with the same PM the number will be relative to your FTP. 

So when you get the new bike and new PM, I would power match your trainer to your PM and retest so if your riding outside you'll have the same number as you do inside. 

Thanks all! A small part of me hoped there was some magic equalizing formula but it seems that formula is just more sweat. Looks like I have another date with my fan and a dark living room sooner than I thought!

Team Kissena!  Hopefully everyone has found their "base plan" and training is going well!  Happy to see all the great questions and info in this forum.  John and Kathy designed a great training plan grid (above) to help those still figuring it out.  If you have questions, please feel free to ask.  For those that like podcasts, here is one that Amber Neben and I did that you might find interesting as gives some good "big picture planning" thoughts on how we prepared for Worlds and the upcoming Olympics (hopefully).  Also gives some insight into training over 40 and might be interesting to hear how a world class pro is still getting it done at 45.  https://scientifictriathlon.com/tts205/

Kissena Group Training starts one Week from Today (March 2, 2020)!

Attention all CAT 3/4 & Masters riders...here are your codes to access your training plans:

CAT3/4

1.2 Winter Base 2 - KISSENA202012 - https://www.trainingpeaks.com/training-plans/cycling/road-cycling/tp-118326

Masters

3.2 Masters Base 2 - KISSENA202032 - https://www.trainingpeaks.com/training-plans/cycling/road-cycling/tp-122689

If you are a masters rider and DO NOT have a solid foundation at this point (riding less than 5hrs/ week), it would be better to go with plan 3.1.

3.1 Masters Base 1 - KISSENA202031 - https://www.trainingpeaks.com/training-plans/cycling/road-cycling/tp-122687

To access plans above simply enter your code at checkout. reach out on slack if you have any issues accessing your plans or trouble using the TrainingPeaks platform.

See you out on the road! 

John
Development

Lets Train Together

Don't forget to sign up for your CAT3-4 or Master's plan. Team training starts Monday!

The CAT5 codes will go out early of April.

Come join your teammates and experienced the shared responsibility of KCC Team Training!

Pick the group that fits your goals most and join in the conversation on slack:

Kissena Zwift Group Workouts are coming! Be on the look out for some Velocious codes to get yourself on one of two 8-week plans starting next Mon 5/4!

KCC Zwift Group Training (Session #1)

We are going to jump right in Tues 5/12 @ 7AM with some SPEED FTP Intervals. The purpose of this training session is to work on those MTB-esque mass Zwift race starts which i'm sure are growing on everyone in different ways. We will focus on getting our bodies ready for these hard starts together.

To participate, add me on Zwift and ill invite you to the meetup.

Here is the Discord link so you can communicate during the ride. I will be broadcasting live (think John Basedow with less hair): https://discord.gg/wrQ8qVf 

There will be an extended cool down (30min total) if anyone wants to chat and/or have coffee after virtually.

Its fitness made simple (+Zwift)!


Here are the details for the workout (ref 8 weeks to Zwift Fast - Day 9):

WU:
10-15 minutes warm up, progressing to Zone 2
TARGET: PW Z2/HR Z2/PE 4-5
CADENCE: Self selected with 2 x 1 minute Fast Pedals to wake up legs
-------
MS:
For each interval, start in your VO2Max training level (PW Z5/HR Z5/PE 7-8) from a full stop for 1 minute. Then settle in at Threshold (PW Z4/HR Z4/PE 6-7) for 9 more minutes (for a total of 10). Spin easy for 5-10 minutes between intervals.
Ride all remaining time in your Endurance zone (PW Z2/HR Z2/PE 4-5).
-------
CD:
Cool down 5-15 minutes
TARGET: PW Z1/HR Z1/PE 2-3
CADENCE: small chain ring


Note that you DO NOT have to follow the above workout during the ride. You can load a workout of your choice into Zwift in the holding pen before the ride starts.


See you on the (pixelated) road!

Anyone ever have their Pedal Stroke analyzed? Stumbled on this online & have been meaning to focus on maximizing this as i feel i am losing out on precious Watts. Anyone have any ideas or suggestions for maximizing power output during each pedal stroke?

Havent been able to find anythign on what % of your output should be at each phase.

John - the answer is pedal harder.   

Seriously, there has never been a successful study showing pedal stroke "technique" or balance increases watt output (over simplification).  There has been a few that have analyzed the stroke of professional cyclist vs. everyday Joe/Jane and guess what they learned?  Pro's push down harder. 

When you say % of output for each phase, that is the rabbit hole.  I will give you an example.  So I have watched a lot of riders try to lift the leg/foot UP on the backstroke to help round the pedal and clear the resistance to the opposing leg down stroke.  If you measure a force vector / circle of the stroke, it would seem lets say 2% more powerful, so at first you would say, great I put out more watts!  Well, the issue is if you then measure the metabolic efficiency / rate / cost of the effort to lift that leg up on the backstroke, well that is like a 5% increase in energy cost....so if you think about it, the cost of the improvement outweighs the gain.  (Caveat this good for a short track sprinter at high cadence power output). 

Thanks @TimCusick ! Will take your word for it and NOT go down that road. Have been reaching for those small gains lately (probably because my Watts per kilo isn't going to go much higher).

Will stick to the yoga & pilates to improve power transfer I think.

@TimCusick

As much as I've read (and given) the pedal harder advice, there are ample workouts and coaching tips that focus not so much on the pedaling, but on strengthening all of the muscles in the legs, like glutei and hip flexors, which aren't necessarily engaged as much as they could be by people.  

Likewise, I've noticed that after roller sessions, I seem to transfer through the bottom of my pedal stroke more smoothly.  And whenever I did a 40k TT, particularly after I started using aero bars for time trails, that it seemed I engaged my glutei more for at least a short while.  

Would it be fair to suggest that there is something to engaging more muscles, though that the specific focus on the pedaling dynamics from a 'scientific' standpoint might not answer the question?

The point was that creating specific workout / drills / things to better round or balance your stroke is not effective.  That being said, cyclists should work on their pedaling stroke as a whole to improve their ability to put out overall power.  yep, that sounds a tad confusing but lets look at two example (over)simplified.  So lets say you want to balance your left and right leg power or teach you body to pull up more on the down stroke so you institute 1 legged pedaling drills everyday so you can make power with each leg independently and force your body to learn to pedal circles.  Your expectation is the weaker leg gets as strong as the strong leg since you are doing the work "independently" and this results in more power.  The reality is the weaker leg get a little stronger, the stronger leg gets a little weaker, they sort of meet in the middle and in the end of the day you make less power.  You are not meant to be symmetrical.  Now, think about what you can improve by starting with what is a Watt.  A Watts is simply how hard you pedal x how fast you pedal.  So to make more watts, you have three options.  Pedal faster, pedal harder or some combo of both right?  So that is where the work should be done, teaching you body to make watts in a range of "pedal faster / pedal harder" work.  Utilizing Neuromuscular manipulation in training is important.  Higher Power / High Cadence, Low Power / High Cadence, Low/Cadence high power drills are a pretty big part of improvement. So again, a simple example, doing a periodized selection of high cadence drills that lead to low cadence drills and the utilization of tools such as rollers can improve your power.  Also, neuromucular manipulation can help improve efficiency (but that gain alone is not as big as people think).

One caveat: For something like injury recovery, surgery recovery or massive imbalance issues my original feedback might no hold true, there is a time and place where single leg strength building, vector manipulation and stuff have merit.  

@TimCusick

Thanks. 

@TimCusick there was some talk about the ramp (Conconi?) test in a different thread. Do you have an opinion of the difference between a ramp test and a 20 minute TT for the purposes of field testing?

Jules - sorry missed this. 

I am not a big fan of Conconi / Ramp testing for determining threshold as a whole.  Research suggest (and my personal experience agrees) that athletes with higher % of fast twitch muscle fiber / anaerobic work capacity tend to "over test" and create unrealistic threshold measurements (to high).  That being said, the same issue is present in 20 minute testing (95% of) process.  In the end of the day, a 40km all out is the perfect answer but that is not realistic for a lot of riders for some reason.

Thanks @TimCusick !

TimCusick said:

In the end of the day, a 40km all out is the perfect answer but that is not realistic for a lot of riders for some reason.

Because that's haaaaaaard!

(Insert picture of wah-mbulance)

There's so much stuff out there re pedal stroke haha

This org (+ pilates program) is recommended by USAC & seems a bit misleading

I have a question relating FTP and heart rate. I've been following the Time-Challenged Cyclist plan and have seen improvements with it. I've also recently started racing my virtual races in the A category on Zwift after a relatively unexpected Zwiftpower auto-upgrade. It's going okay and I'm able to hold the power necessary to hang in with the front groups thus far, however, when I look at results my heart rate is always significantly higher (>10bpm) than those who put out similar w/kg numbers to me. My assumption is this means I need to get fitter so holding that power is easier and therefore my question is, are there specific workouts that will increase my ability to put out more power at less effort, is it just a longer term overall fitness increase that I have to wait for, or is heart rate a more individual metric with variability from person to person even if objective fitness is constant? Boiling it down: should I be looking to increase my FTP or should I be looking to get more comfortable at my current FTP anaerobically/over threshold-wise? (or is that a stupid question and by doing one I do the other so shut up and just do the work?)

There definitely are workouts and plans that will increase your FTP, and as Tim has mentioned, that is almost always a good place to start for amateurs.

Regarding your HR, not sure how much you should read into it, the results just mean that your HR was higher by >10BPM than others -- their effort might have been easier or might have been harder. Would love Tim's perspective.

Eloy - both good answers!  

Nate - To answer the question, you need to start with your goal?  What do you want to do with all the fitness you are talking about?  Is the goal to Win an A Race on Zwift or to keep training till CX season and win something?  Maybe a fall stage race or something?  

@Nathaniel Picard Busky are you measuring your heart rate variability (HRV) as well throughout the day? Sometimes an elevated heart rate during workouts can be an indicator of any combination of overwork, lack of sleep/recovery, etc.  

@Nathaniel Picard Busky HR is pretty irrelevant measurement to compare to other. Like Lionel sander or Andre griepel max heart rate is around high 140s and Lionel can push 400watts for an hr at 5.5 wkg around 142 hr. 

My thresholds hr is around 165, other people can be 180 for threshold. So it's pretty irrelevant. Same with HRV mine is around mid 40s-50s, while some is in the 100s.

RHR is usually higher during a day where you are fatigued with lower HRV. Typically you cannot Push a higher HR or push a higher steady power on those days. On a day you're fresh your HRV is higher, with lower RHR and higher Max HR and higher steady power.

Anomalies does happen when you wake up like crap, but the legs work amazingly. I love those days.

So w/kg is probly the only thing that's comparable from person to person. That said it does differ from person 2 person like faster twitch muscles cyclist does not hold steady wattage very well. This is where specificity of training comes in. For zwift racing specificity like over under seems to emulate the race very well, or training for CX where 30/15 is more specific to the race.

In real like TT, mostly flat TT comparable measurement is more W/CDA, since climbing is not a factor, the combination of threshold vs your wind drag is more relevant. 

A two form measurement is always more comparable than watts, weight, and aero individually.

ATTN: All Kissena members

Tim Cusick and I would like to invite all members to join BaseCamp this winter.  BaseCamp is an all new way to train during the quiet winter months.  This is our 3rd year and we are stoked as we have made it the best yet at a time when everyone needs some positive focus and training fun. 

BaseCamp is all about great training and building a training community. Instead of training alone this winter, we train together, online, socialize and motivate each other through our private Facebook group and Zoom meeting and webinars.  We have created a complete training program that gives you a combination of a great plan with 6 elite coaches and a nutritionist guiding you throughout.  We have official group rides twice a week 6pm ET (Tim leads the East coast rides) plus we will have a meet up board offering rides that coaches and athletes can lead with other BaseCampers.  Tim and the team run the private Facebook group that answers questions daily and posts workout analysis for all to learn.  Plus, we send out a weekly digest of FB highlights for those that are not social media fans.  

Our BaseCamp program right now is on an Early Bird package price for $299. for the standard or $379. For the Pro level (which includes Nutrition with Dr. Namrita Brooke and a strength training program from Menachem Brodie) see pricing chart for other details(make sure to scroll down).  

For the Kissena members I would like to offer you an extra special "Friends and Family" discount of another $50.00 off either standard or pro level packages. If enough members (more than 6) are interested in joining, I am talking with Patrick on possible Kissena contribution which means lower prices for you! If you are interested in joining please email me kathy@velociouscyclingadventures.com and I will send you info on getting your discounts.   

Tim Cusick is presenting a live webinar next Tuesday with team members Amber Neben, Rebecca Rusch and Serena Gordon that explains the benefits of solid base training and how BaseCamp can help you meet those goals.

Oct 27, 8:00 PM – 8:30 PM EDT

Zoom Webinar

https://www.joinbasecamp.com/event-details/why-join-basecamp-build-a-bigger-engine-with-the-power-of-basecamp-session-2  

Train Where you Belong is our tag line and we hope that Kissena will join in the fun this winter.

Kathy Watts

BaseCamp 
Velocious 
USAC Coach
717-515-1385