Quabbin Reservoir Classic Road Race

Apr 30, 2013 at 02:27 PM

Adam said:

Yes, riders crash, not races. But, it is all about odds. This race totally staked the odds in favour of the many crashes you see here. The race should stack the odds the other way, towards safe. If done correctly, then the riders are the ones mostly at fault. This race does not fall into that category.

Totally agree.

Adam said:

courses were a field of 150, competent, cyclists is perfectly safe. This was not one. Also, it is not fair to get people to travel many, many miles and many, many hours and then expect them so say on the line "Actually, this is not safe, judgement call, I am not going to race. I will just accept I lost the fuel and toll costs, the hotel costs and my entry fee." We pay the promoter to take

Adam you bring up a really good point...

Risk management is really hard in the moment. Everyone has a huge "sunk cost" bias: "oh, there's only 20 more miles to go" or "well, that descent was really bad with those juniors but it's behind me now" or "I drove all this way so I'll at least START and then..."

As you point out risk is often about an accumulation of factors that by themselves aren't terrible.

When I was a wilderness guide we called this "lining up the lemons" in that one bad circumstance (cold water, for example) doesn't ruin a trip or guarantee an accident but when you line them up the probability of a bad result gets very high (cold water, plus not enough to eat, plus, one category of more dangerous rapids than expected, etc)

Screaming downhill at 50mph is not where anybody makes good decisions. I try and make my decisions about what will constitute "too many lemons in a line" or a "deal breaker" beforehand so that I can rely on guidelines that I know I made when I had more time to consider things carefully and I didn't have a sunk cost bias of travel, time, money, team expectations, etc.

In the heat of the moment you're likely to come up with a harebrained idea like "I'll just try and drop everybody so then it will be safe" only to find yourself in the same situation 5 minutes later except now you're gassed and less able to react.

In retrospect for example KSR's 2012 first stage was too dangerous. here were the lemons:

Full of excited/low skilled juniors
THREE times down that hill
Lots of sprinters who knew they'd be destroyed the next day looking for their shot at glory
Nobody was tired yet so everyone thought they could contend
Bad quality road surface
55+ mph descents

I'd driven my whole family up, rented a house, placed in the top 10 overall, and had what I thought were team expectations to do well... so I chose to stay in. I was lucky - but some poor fucker in my field BROKE HIS BACK in the final sprint and the P123 field was neutralized for like (an hour?) because of a similar bad crash on the descent.

ian ellis

Apr 30, 2013 at 02:34 PM

Having seen the video I really don't see any issue with the course or road width. In each case the crashes happened on straight roads and seem attributable to rider error.

I agree that races could be safer with smaller fields. But that means more lead and following vehicles. if the lead vehicle was the Police and had the power to make oncoming traffic pull over and stop until the field passed even better.

You no longer have $40 race fees, instead you have Dieter level fees of $100 or more.

Marc Bertucco

Apr 30, 2013 at 04:13 PM

Yeah, looking at the video, it's hard to say the size of the field caused the crash. Straight roads. The first one, it appears a dude in the middle of the field dumps it without provocation from field pinching. He takes out the armed forces dude and that's that. Second crash the rider with the helmet cam is too far back to see what happened.

But yeah, field limits should be carefully considered when running a race.

For me, I think it is important to consider what race fields you run. When I first started racing, you almost never saw cat 3s combined with other categories. Now, Cat 3s get to choose from multiple categories. I don't love the idea that they get to choose to race either with dudes who have done 11 races, or fully supported pros.

I think Norton was probably hedging his bets by combining fields, unsure of where registration numbers were going to be, but clearly, everyone might have been better served by having separate 5, 4, and 3 fields.

Ryan J

May 07, 2013 at 05:25 PM

So, here's an email that just came from the Tour of the Dragons promoter. I'm sure he's getting just as much annoying shit from racers as the Norton did after Quabbin. But note the professionalism and lack of defensiveness in his reaction. This makes me want to do Dragons again. Norton's email, on the other hand, makes me think Quabbin is a circus and I'll never do it.

FROM: TOUR OF THE DRAGONS - THE MOST CHALLENGING RACING IN NEW ENGLAND
-------------------------------------------------

Everyone -

Thank you for coming to the Tour of the Dragons. There’s a lot more that I will share in the near future, and will in the months to come, but I wanted to get a message out to all of you now.

First of all, thank you for taking part in the event, thank you for your patience and thank you for your messages – of criticism, constructive suggestions and praise. There has been a lot of all of the above depending upon your own race.

2013 was just the third iteration of the Tour of the Dragons and we have been working hard at improving it, getting things right that we hadn’t in the past and overall doing things better. This is not an excuse for any shortcomings, it is a reality. We know there were things within our control that we could have done better and I apologize to you for not having had them buttoned up. There were factors outside of our control that affected the races. We have contacted law enforcement already about some of them.

From an overall perspective, we were shooting for very challenging courses, ones that were serious but manageable. No one wants pabulum, but few want ‘over-the-top’ either. For some we went too far; for most, finishing all three stages was a real achievement. For those who won in the amateur ranks, they have earned high praise as top competitors.

My job looking forward will be to tone it down somewhat, take a step away from the dirt roads and address event departments that need to be overhauled. I already have plans and course designs in place that will put us back on the pavement. Improvements in other departments will follow.

Circuit Race – we can do a circuit race that is on pavement or at least 90% on pavement. It’s in the works already.
Road Race – if you like the first amazing downhill, we’ll get you there…on pavement.

Road Signage – There is no way any of our people removed signs during the race. The one concrete report that I have heard is of someone on a motorcycle removing them. If any of you have more specific information, please report it to me. As I mentioned, I have already been in touch with law enforcement about this issue.

Without going in to all your questions and comments right now, I want you to know that you may email me and I will answer your emails. Some of you already have and I intend to address many this evening. If you want to discuss event elements and share input and thoughts, you may call me at 802-447-2313. I will listen. If it’s a rant, I will move on to more constructive input. But the bottom line is this – I will be transparent, open and receptive to your input and commentary. My goal is to improve this event in all departments and make it a better event for you.

Sincerely,

Jim Marshall
tourofthedragons@gmail.com

Jules

May 07, 2013 at 05:30 PM

That's really impressive. I thought Dieter somehow had a hand in this race too though, so now my world view is rocked.

Ryan J

May 07, 2013 at 05:40 PM

Jules said:

That's really impressive. I thought Dieter somehow had a hand in this race too though, so now my world view is rocked.

Dieter did have a hand in Dragons - it was run by Anthem. Not sure what role he played exactly, but I heard he was there.

Jules

May 07, 2013 at 05:41 PM

That makes sense. If Diter is involved, it seems like you can count on a very well run, very not-cheap event.

Adam

May 07, 2013 at 05:42 PM

In Norton's defence though, this guy probably didn't get cc'd on an bitchy, anonymous email which was actually sent to "Vermont State Park Association", the body being responsible for administering permission to use the roads for the race, in such a manner that he was unable to defend himself.

This email is very warm, inviting and professional though (so many yo'momma jokes came to mind just now).

Frustrating thing about Quabbin was that the race was off. SImples. Poorly executed. Their should have been a mature, level-headed response in order to try to improve things, not a shitty email. Now, nothing will change as the organiser really has as much right to be pissed as us racers after the way he was treated.

Jules

May 07, 2013 at 05:47 PM

Quabbin seems to have a reputation that is fairly earned, regardless of whatever animosity comes out of this year's email chain.

If the Quabbin organizer wants to step his race up to the level of the other local "1 day classics" the path is pretty straightforward. If he doesn't it's not like any of the bithcy anonymous backstabbing can or should come as a surprise going forward.

When race organizers stand to make real money from running races, we'll see them run professionaly. Until then they'll be run like hobbies/labors of love which are sometimes wonderful, sometimes diastrous and very difficult to predict.

Marc Bertucco

May 07, 2013 at 07:29 PM

Ryan, thanks for the post. If you are giving feed-back to Jim, and the mood strikes you, this is my thought, not having done the race this year so take it or leave it....

So not into racers and promoters love of dirt roads in ROAD races. I understand that they can be necessary in more remote regions when you are putting together a circuit or road race course, because that's how they do in quieter places of the country. But to go out and find miles of dirt roads just because it will make your race "epic" or something....
And while we're at it. The first year of the tour was a nice low-key stage race. Why does everything that Dieter touches have to be THE HARDEST MOST EPIC RACE IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE? Does every stage race have to be for skinny climbers only?
Which brings me to my biggest request: BRING BACK THE CRITERIUM!

Jules

May 07, 2013 at 07:49 PM

Marc,

Dieter also runs Huner Mountain which is FLAT AND NOT EPIC EASY AS SHIT...

Ryan J

May 07, 2013 at 09:03 PM

Ha, @Marc, you're going to have hard time getting me to fight for LESS stage racers for skinny climbers. The way I see it, opportunities for crits and flatter circuit races abound. We need all the super hilly races we can get!

Ryan J

May 07, 2013 at 09:05 PM

That said ... I'd be all for the crit. As long as you have one "epic" stage it remains a climbers stage race overall, and it still has appeal for others. Even as a climber type, I'd love to do a crit in that downtown area, it would be amazing.

vlad

May 08, 2013 at 04:10 AM

Personally I think that dirt roads in races are dumb... and dangerous. Cross, mtb, rando's - that's cool.

"Epic" lies in effort, not in imagery and romanticism, and most certainly not at this stage. Let me go fast on a paved road until I taste blood and crack. Probably harder to sell that to the masses then the idea of some mud.

Jeffrey White

May 08, 2013 at 02:34 PM

I like dirt sections in road races, personally. Sometimes they're a factor, sometimes they're not. It's just another facet in the race that you have to prepare for and it rewards certain riding skills. It also connects us with the earlier days of the sport in a small way, which I like. Luckily for us all, these races are easy to find and easy to avoid.

Adam

Apr 11, 2014 at 05:46 PM

If I can split travel costs with someone I would like to do this race, but the 123 not the crashy 3/4 race.

Any takers?

https://www.bikereg.com/quabbin-reservoir-classic-road-race

Jules

Apr 29, 2014 at 04:03 PM

Heard from Korff today that this was a rain-soaked, three hour forty degree lesson in misery. Any reports?

Adam

Apr 29, 2014 at 05:07 PM

Didn't go, had quite a lot of chest pain the preceding week due to my crash at Farmersville so decided to not race that weekend.

Wow, what a difference a bit of rain makes. Last year the 3/4 field had 138 riders, this year 26. Also, it was a total crash fest last year. A lesson for the promoter there I think...

MaxThorn

Apr 19, 2017 at 07:05 PM

This year's Quabbin Reservoir Classic Road Race is around the corner. Reading through this thread shows how contentious this one has been in the past. What's the deal with it these days?

Bikereg: https://www.bikereg.com/quabbin-reservoir-classic-road-race

SeanMiles

Apr 26, 2017 at 02:05 PM

Did this last year. I enjoyed it, but doesn't look like it's going to work logistically this year unless any takers of whom are also vehicle owners and willing to drive and split a hotel on short notice are interested.