Posted By: Marc Bertucco

Posted By: Adam
I purposefully ignore base-building in this question as I believe that is a load of balls.

Goddamn...am I really going to have to bust my primer on the importance of base miles again this year?! I mean, if you really want to skip base miles, and you only plan to do short park races, then fine skip 'em. You'll do all-right.

Posted By: Jules RoazenRest matters a lot when you are training to sprint, but much, much less for the other zones.

Rest matters regardless of what zone you are training in...the importance of rest is related to the overall physiological toll of your workload. And that toll is related to both volume and intensity.

I would be surprised if you could do three or four 10-minute threshold efforts with only 1 to 3 minutes of rest between efforts. I mean, I'm sure you could do the power, but look at your heart rate, what zone are you in now to maintain your threshold wattage by the third 10-minute effort after 20 minutes of work with only two to six minutes of rest? What is your perceived rate of exertion? Are your power numbers in the threshold zone, but it feels like a harder effort? Are you now at the lower end of your threshold wattage range with the same level of effort that you started your workout at the higher end of your threshold?

Mr. Sweet Spot Frank Overton reminds us that:

"In my experience as an athlete and a coach, a large aerobic foundation should be your number one priority this winter for a successful 2008 season. There are several areas of your training you'll need to address afterwords but starting with the "big base" will increase your performance. The bigger base you can build, the faster you will be."

Very fair; my point was around comparing the rest required for "Sprinting" vs "threshold & vicinity" training. I chose a bad example of 1-3 minutes (although in a given hour of "threshold-ish" training I'll typically have less than 15 minutes of rest - and yes, it really hurts. Do you think that sweet spot training requires 1/2 as much rest between effort(s) as sprinting? Perhaps 1/4?

Also, it's a bit of a mystery to look at HR, power, etc for these efforts. I use power as my compass (both norm and avg) but care a lot about my average hr for the effort and my max by the end of the effort; more as gauges of how tired/rested/sick I am, not as an indication to lower the wattage target.

On the overall subject of rest, my personal experience has been that the limiting factor for my progress is more how much sleep (and the quality) I can get rather than how many miles I can put in. Somehow it's always easier to get 2-3 extra hours on the bike in during a week than 2-3 extra hours of quality sleep.

Marc:

I think there are a couple of ways to think about base. In theory, if we all had lots of time and the mental fortitude to do lots of riding in the cold, we'd all benefit from doings lots of base miles. How many would you need to see a benefit? Probably depends on your athletic background. A relatively untrained or novice cyclist could benefit from 10 steady hours a week of endurance work. Someone with a long athletic history probably needs significantly more hours to see any real fitness increase. You are right that the bigger the base the more sustainable the fitness and peaks. Probably better peaks too.

But, we live in the real world and need to make compromises and adjustments. I only have about 10-12 hours to train right now. Partly work, partly my choice to take on some extra work to make more money. So should I focus on base? I doubt it would have much impact. My athletic history includes pretty significant endurance training since I was 14, lots of 50-60 mile weeks of running in high school and many 20+ hour training weeks as a triathlete. 10-12 hours would pretty much be toodling around for me and wouldn't get me ready to race at all.

So I think we should be clear - we aren't forsaking or saying base miles aren't important, they just aren't the best decision at this point for a time crunched athlete with some recent history of training.

I also should say I'm not rolling around the park doing 5 mega sprints and then some VO2max work. My modified time crunched base program includes mostly endurance, a good chunk of tempo, an hour or so of total threshold per week, and some skill work. So I'm still doing base, it is just a base that is designed to get me the most out of the time I have to use.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Mike

so somewhere on this thread JP mentioned something about figuring out your ideal sprint length, so you know when to launch.

I did a little experimenting today, did 30,20,10, 10, 20 30 second sprint efforts to see what kind of number I could put up and how I compared across the efforts. I did them rested, did them twice because I was a long way from home and wanted something to occupy myself with. They were done in the 2nd half of a 45 mile endurance ride.

Did them mostly with a tail wind starting from about 20mph.

best 30 second effort (637 watts) season best: 773 watts
best 20 second effort (734 watts) season best: 906 watts
best 10 second effort (891 watts) season best: 1020 watts

fwiw, the second effort was within 2-5 watts of the better effort so the numbers seem reliable.

all the numbers are more or less in line with season best values, I was just tired today.

So what is my ideal sprint? 20 seconds would be my hunch.

I'd blow up the segments, but yes, it seems you're right. A long one seems like the way to go.

@Perlberg. Don't forget to look at how quickly you get to maximum speed and wattage on these efforts. Because even if you are cranking good watts, it ain't going to mean a thing if you've got a competitor on your wheel. Also look at the rate of fade after you hit max wattage. Because if you fade faster/more than your competitor who may have a lower average wattage, he will still be able to come by you despite generating fewer peak watts.

What kind of time would you like to see to get from say leadout speed to top speed?

Calculating FTP:

Jens Method: Pedal as hard as your bones can handle for 60 minutes. That's your number.

Carmichael Method is a three mile effort. That average will get you 105% of FTP
...
others?

Cross post from cycling symposium

Two more slides showing fat oxidation rate which SanMilan claims is very different by person, and measurable ie: you could find your ideal HR/Wattage for fat burning much like you can find your idea wattage for threshold improvement.

The hematocrit slide shows the ideal training band (in red) and the amazingly large negative effect of over-training/depleted hematocrit (and a familiar chart of seasonal "form" for many I suspect)

Posted By: Jules RoazenCalculating FTP:

Jens Method: Pedal as hard as your bones can handle for 60 minutes. That's your number.

Carmichael Method is a three mile effort. That average will get you 105% of FTP
...
others?

Jules:

I'm not sure it really matters unless you are in it for measuring against other riders. Which of course is fun.

I use the protocol in Training and Racing with a power meter:

20 mins endurance
3x1 high cadence (1 min RI)
5 mins easy
5 minutes all out
10 minutes easy
20 minute time trial

take 95% of the 20 minute time trial effort.

The 5 minute effort doesn't figure into your calculation, just serves to tire you out and make the 20 minute more realistic.

Just keep whatever test do you consistent.

@ Mike: I'm always 99% interested in my own lungs, 1% amazed at those of you, norm, ryan, eric, et al...

Mostly my curiosity is in understanding what what kind of error people expect between a 20 minute=>60 minute extrapolation vs 5=>60 or 7.5=>60, etc

I was just talking with a non-kissena friend in another country and he was echoing some of my recent sensations about getting maxed out more from the torque required than the huffing & puffing...

I was not huffin and puffing last night. However, my legs hurts and my heart was going strong. But heart doesn't matter as much because its the power...
So, where was I? Oh yes, taking some exception to throw my understanding on the situation...

The 5 min effort represents an effort at VO2Max. amazingly, if done all out equates to about 120% of FTP as it is defined (definition of FTP or VO2Max). Thus while exhausting your anaerobic stores which can throw off your 20 min effort coming up soon, it does give you a sense of where you are at, AND it does affect your FTP.

Here is why:
The FTP calculation as done by Golden Cheetah is pretty much a Monod Test. The concept of a Monod Test is to use a VO2 effort and a Threshold effort and use a decay model to extrapolate a FTP. The higher the discrepency between the 5 min power and the 20min power, the less the 5% rule applies because the decay from 5 min to 20 min is greater and therefore the expected decay over 60min is greater.

Some examples - in theory.

Say
Rider E has a 5min of 385w and 20m of 335w in the same session. FTP would be calculated with Monod at 318w.
Rider M 5m 376w, 20m 330w - FTP 314.

Now change 5min of Rider E to 415w. FTP drops to 310w. Make 5min 350w and FTP goes up to 325w-330w!

Apply the Vo2Max = 120% of FTP and the numbers will make a little more sense - sort of. If the Vo2Max is developed then it works. If its not developed - say rider E with 350w Vo2, then it doesn't.

Consistency is what matters.

Some people like to uses 2x20,10 and take the second 20m as their FTP.

@ Jules, since you're interested i did 5 mins @ 377 and then 20 mins @ 330 watts last night using the protocol I described.

Leaves me with FTP of 314, which is right about where I expected it based on recent trainer sessions.


Mike

amazed, as usual...

Rider E and Rider M weren't transparent enough?

I have a highly developed ability to abstract...

LOL. I breezed right through your calculations. Just patting myself on the back over here.

Looking at the data now... average cadence 84 for the 20 minute interval. eek. gotta spin that up.

94 I think for me... Yep. 94 rpm.
Also, in the last 30-40 seconds, I raised the number 2w. So, I had more in the tank I think.

Jules said: "I was just talking with a non-kissena friend in another country and he was echoing some of my recent sensations about getting maxed out more from the torque required than the huffing & puffing..."

The torque required to do 350 watts is puny unless you're grinding an extremely low cadence. It would be difficult to imagine it being anything other than a fuel issue, as an untrained rider can probably put out over 500 watts for at least a little while. But as we all well know, the "sensations" come and go as they please!

A couple of people have asked me to clarify this neat table from the NYU symposium, so here goes:

Most humans (Armstrong, Contador, etc notwithstanding) hit their FTP right around 4.0 mmol/L of lactate

see this article for details http://davidglover.net/2010/03/lactate-threshold-and-blood-lactate-testing/

Quote:

"...blood lactate testingA blood lactate test measures the concentration of lactate [La] in the blood typically via a finger prick at increasing levels of intensity while exercising (I was on a exercise bike). The purpose of the test is to determine Lactate Threshold (LT), which this particular test protocol defines as 4.0 mmol/L of lactate. LT is essentially the point above which lactate begins to accumulate exponentially ..."

This table shows the blood lactate levels of various calibers of rider at different Watts/KG efforts

The vertical axis on the left is watts/kg, the horizontal is rider-caliber: the European equivalent of Jr, Elite Amateur, Pro Tour and Wold-Class (world class is on the right)

Take a look:

- an elite amateur is hitting FPT or 4.0 mmol/L just below 4.5 w/kg, but even 4.0 w/kg isn't really bothering them
- a pro tour rider isn't really at threshold even at 4.5 w/kg, but by 5.0 they're past the limit
- a world tour rider (grand tour podium finisher or world champion) is still not at threshold even at 5.0 w/kg!

Hope this clarifies the chart; I find it fascinating.

Hey all; here area couple of things I've been thinking about recently that I wanted to share/highlight.

Visualization:

I was out riding with Johnny "Wrongway" Malcolmson and we were talking about Battenkill. Hills, gearing, nutrition, etc. What struck me was that John talks about visualizing success as if it was just one more aspect of race preparation; tire pressure, arm warmers, visualization, weight, etc. I think most of us neglect this and we shouldn't. All my best performances have been on the back of diligent and detailed visualizations of being calm, dealing with fatigue, nerves, etc. Learn from the Kiwi, he knows how to win when it counts.

Rest:

"Sleep is magic"
There are two things I do much more intensely since getting a professional coach - I work much harder, and I rest much harder than I ever would on my own. Training is just a message to your body that it needs to get stronger. If you don't rest, you don't give your body an opportunity to grow stronger. It is really easy to go out and smash your legs all week long. Smashed legs don't always equate to fast legs.

Crappy Training:

I got sick/traveled/broke my wheels and now I've lost all my form and must massacre myself to get it back - RIGHT NOW!
One truism of training is that fitness takes much longer to create than destroy, but generally speaking even a week or 10 days isn't going to destroy your form. I'll defer to the experts here but whatever you think you are losing for a 10 day layoff - probably less than 5% - it is much less than you anticipate and it will come back without a MASSIVE LEG BREAKING MONSTER WEEK. That big week may cost you much more than you think, and leave you flat when it comes to racing.
A second is that no matter how much your heart aches for your bygone prowess you can't rush it back. Stick with your plan, Do Not Panic.

The Moral?

Treat rest and visualization as seriously as you do the rest of your training.
Everybody's training goes off the rails; it is inevitable. The more gracefully you manage this process the faster (and happier) you will be. Let the guys on the other teams try and make up for a weeklong flu with three back to back 80 mile days.
Sleep is magic. Get all you can.

Peace

Sigh... Lessons I'm learning the hard way. I had been working pretty hard, then really pushed it over spring break, and afterward just had to take a week off (aside from an hour a day commuting) because I was constantly tired and unmotivated. I don't know if I can certainly call it overtraining, but I was worried that was the case. When I started feeling fresh again, I went right back into crushing myself and by the weekend was riddled with cramps and fatigue. I suppose I need to learn how to properly rest and recover.

So, how do you guys deal with these situations? How can you recognize overtraining before it reaches the point where you have to take longer periods of time off? If you do feel you need to take a break, how do you work yourself back so that you don't force yourself right into that staleness again?

Konrad, there are a few things for me that I recognize im digging my way into a hole of fatigue. Firstly I train with power so I more or less always know where I am or should be as far as my fitness vs freshness should be / is. That aside, without power generally I know im tired by HR if my resting hr is notably higher than usual. I also feel a residual strain in my legs when I try and make efforts. I try and take an easy week at least every 4 weeks where I build intensity each week up to my rest. What I do find is that its hard to come back immediately after, or rather expecting the same intensity on say week 1 than week 4/5 from previous. I always try and build from 1 to 4/5. For example I just took a week off, spent the next week turning the screw back on finding it hard and felt like shit, raced on saturday, set some power PR's now I feel great leading into week 2.

For me, a good indicator of fatigue is heart rate at max effort since I don't own a power meter. If it barely goes over 170 on an effort I can usually expect to see 185+, it's not a good sign and I take at least a day or two off the bike riding very easy on the second day if not at all. How to work back...no clue, maybe make it an easy week. However, I have experienced and have heard of people breaking records when perceived fatigue was up there, cramps and other physical signs not inclusive on the other hand.

Ok, so I need a new project like I need another hole in the head, but...

What's up with the dearth of Time Trials? I can't drive to Coxackie NY for their Tuesday Night series and I'll like to arrive at Catskills with more than a few training rides under my belt.

I'm guessing Norm, Mike, Ryan, Wrongway and some others would join me for an informal FBF TT session on a weekend. Any interest?

Carlisle PA 40km
Sunday, July 01, 2012
https://www.bikereg.com/Net/16081

Dauphin PA 40km
Saturday, June 09, 2012
https://www.bikereg.com/Net/16174

Upper Freehold NJ 11mi
Sunday, May 20, 2012
https://www.bikereg.com/Net/15177

Sunday, June 3, is the NJ TT Championship. I think it's open to out of state competitors as well.

Nothing seems to be up yet. Maybe track down the Mambo Kings.
http://www.njbikeracing.com/calendar/calendar.pl?month=6&view=Event&event_id=547

This thread may be a bit late in starting, but I wanted to put it out there.

I find that declaring my goals publicly both makes me feel more accountable, and can attract some support from this awesome group.

The goals I sent to my coach this year were (in no particular order after number 1)

Don't burnout myself or my family
Top 10 at Battenkill
Begin fall cross season strong & hungry
650 watts for 1 minute
400 watts for 5 minutes (alpine)
Get in a winning break (anywhere)
Race Grant's Tomb
Race Tour of Catskills and podium in the opening TT

For me, each of these goals are very specific, but only some have numbers & places next to them. I treat them all as cause for specific focus and celebration. I chose these with care to be both challenging and not too far-reaching.

Last weekend I got within striking distance of '400 for 5 minutes' with WDC & Ryan's help
On Thursday I realized very close to the end of a 50 minute effort that I was within striking distance of my personal hour record. Joe, Aly Jeff all chipped in with encouraging shouts for the last lap to help me, with Joe even riding up next to me offering extra water if it was needed.

It wasn't a listed goal because 60 minute TT's hurt so bad I didn't have the appetite; so I'm counting this one as an Extra Big Win. I celebrated with steak

I encourage everyone both to make a list of season goals, and share it with the people who can support you in achieving them - and who can celebrate the victories & well fought losses with you.

My season's goals are as follows:

Not to get burn-out with wedding/working/racing.
Hold onto the Green Jersey in the Cat 4 L&C Cup.
Quit racing from August to middle of September (No crashes before the wedding)
Kill it in CX season (after the wedding)
Get down to ~147lbs for CX season.
Help Kissena riders get better, and get other rider's upgrade points.

I've got two and five started.

My goals are as follows to place top 5 and then kill for the win!!!at floyed in the 3/4 and get top 15 in any race with a long clime and upgrade to the 3s at the end of the season!!! O and I forgot no more crashing!!!