thanks everyone some great advice here!

i'd seen some scimilar work outs to eric's recommendedation in european bike mags but wondered if anyone was actually doing them.
so i'm definately going to be putting them into my week

its very reassuring to know that you guys are doing in the region of what i want to do WRT indoor riding, ie; 3 sessions a week in the region of an hour.
'wasnt sure if you guys were getting in hours and hours of base riding at home before you even started doing intervals.

i'll be keeping my eye on the power meter, this is one of the reasons i bought it last year, i could make my indoor work more meaningful by knowing what my effort etc was.

something i'm noticing is that my numbers indoor for the same RPE are considerably lower,
i doubt my forms gone that far but i couldnt do 10+ minutes averaging 300w for now thats for sure.
however i could'nt really do 300w on the kreitlers for a long time safely so that could be why,

ive done a bit of work with the kreitlers on a towel (great suggestion) but the drums got so hot it freaked me out a bit thinking my tires would explode

anyway, i sold a piece of music gear out of my studio, got some cash and bought a trainer, seems really strong and solid so hopefully it'll last.

Marc, i hear you on the rollers being chique, i love them and will be using them for sure,
like JP i believe in form on the bike, i just know it wont get me over on its own.
i thought about the headwind fan but the noise worried me a bit.

i converted a small home office/store room that's by the central air conditioner in my house and the way i put venting on the door means i basically have a stream of air into the room when i turn on the unit, i covered the floor in the cheap foam interlocking tiles and even have my wifes elliptical machine in there for some cross training so i'm well covered for someone living in the city.
having an elliptical machine by the rollers makes for some spectacular crashing when it happens which is one of the key reasons i could do with the safety of a turbo trainer!

i have some spinervals dvds and things like that and i watch all kinds of technical stuff on my laptop (i'm a CGi person) so theres ways to pass time.
i'm also a music nut so definately time to put some proper playlists together...

One of the things i'm really trying to do is structure something over the next 3-4 months that will keep me training week-in week-out and feeling like i'm working through something.
my interest in cycling ebbs and flows, particularly in the winter so knowing that i'm doing the same kind of things as other people and it will still work without 300,000 base miles by the end of january is very reassuring.

i'm sure some of you relate to this, I'm not training for podiums but i also don't want to feel like i'm just going through the motions.
when that happens i can end up doing nothing for a week or so due to the weak excuses in my head and my right arm rooting for a beer.

some interesting things happened last year, i did well in some races when i had'nt ridden much that i should have got killed in (a top10 at catskills day 2)
then got killed at pawling when i could have done OK, that was a strong case for having a turbo trainer cos i couldnt warm up and it was hot from the gun.

going to talk to mattio and hopefully we can work together and he can put a little plan together.
with something like that in place i should be able to keep the discipline together.

more beligian bike racing than belgian beer drinking.
no, i dont need a CX bike to have a beer! i'm cavendish, boonen & contador when it comes to the stellas

thanks again

alex

Hear ye here ye,

If it's nasty out or you're time-constrained, try the Ragot roller intervals he detailed above. I've been doing them 3 times a week (sometimes with a third pyramid set thrown in for closer to 90 minutes of pain fun) for the last three weeks. Definitely showing improvement.

Coach Ragot, +1

New workout for the time-starved rider.

So, you've mastered the stair-step workout? Here is another for you:
w/u 5-10 min
12x1/15 d ea 3 - this means 12 efforts of 1 minute each with 15 seconds of rest in between and each effort must be harder/faster than the past, but the effort 4 is back to the first and then down again. So, I change gears but keep the rpms the same - 53x14, 53x13, 53x12, 53x14, 53x13, 53x12 - get it?
then the pyramid
1-4-1/30 n/s (negative split)
then the cherry:
10x20/10 (10 efforts of 20 seconds with 10 seconds rest)
Cool down.

Under an hour of suffering.

To consolidate it:
w/u
12x1/15 d ea 3
1-4-1/30 n/s
10x20/10
w/d

Cheers
Eric

Eric's pyramid workout was so good the vibrations from riding the rollers so hard shook a wine glass off the kitchen shelf.

So I spent 4 days riding with my powermeter calibration way off - I didn't realize that you couldn't zero the new powertap while coasting. Now I have 4 days of riding in my Golden Cheetah library with really crazy data.

Is there a way I can instruct the program to ignore the power data but save ride time, distance, etc? I don't want the crazy numbers messing up my power zones and highs for the season.

Let me know if anyone has figured this out.

FYI golden cheetah does have a feature to manually adjust torque, the only problem is I have no idea how far off the torque was.

Mike, this is a question for the Wattage List on Google Groups.

I did find an answer for you there, and a spreadsheet that might help.

The answer is from from John Verheul of JBV Coaching (a friend and a good coach):

first posted this in 2004, but it's worth reposting:
1) Open the PT file in Excel.
2) Sort it by torque (ascending) so you find the lowest torque value
(or, as
chris says, just look for periods of coasting and observe the torque
there).
3) Click Edit -> Undo to put the file back in it's original order (or
re-sort by time).
4) Create a column that is a formula, you want to subtract the lowest
observed torque value from the torque column. Column should be as long
as
the file itself.
5) Calculate power using the new torque using the instructions Rick
Sladkey
gives in the FAQ. That is, power = 1746*recalculated torque*(speed/
2093).
Adjust the 2093 number (which is wheel circumference) if using other
than a
700x23 wheel/tire.
6) Copy the new power cells and paste -> special (values) over the
original
power column. Do the same with the new torque values.
7) Delete the now extraneous recalculated columns, save the file as
a .csv
again, and now import back into the software of your choice
John Verheul

Wow, thanks. Easier than I thought I guess.

Hi everyone, I just recently joined Kissena, after 3 years of triathlon and 3 years of battling running injuries I decided to take the plunge into bike racing. Having become accustomed to signing up for races waaaaay in advance, as one does for most triathlons these days, I've been perusing the forums here to try and see what I should be signing up for. It looks like the Tour of the Catskills is one pretty big race that I should sign up for now, but I couldn't find anything else that might sell out. Any of y'all have any ideas about other races I might consider trying to register for now? And should I definitely sign up for the Tour of the Catskills? It looks like fun. Oh, obviously I'm Cat 5, which does seem to preclude me from a few of the fancier races. Thanks all!

Brian,

Welcome to Kissena, and welcome to road racing. It is a different breed than triathlons. Most park races sell out within a week of race day. So it doesn't take a ton of pre-thinking before signing up for races.

Think about how to get your 10 cat 5 races in quickly so you have more, and generally longer races available to you. From there you can focus on a handful of goal races throughout the season. I would suggest looking to do a stage race, a couple long out of town races, and a crit or two in your first season. This should give you a great survey of what racing is like, and the opportunity to learn how to race in different conditions.

Looking forward to seeing you out on the road.

Brian,
The first thing is to get enough race experience to get out of Category Five. Once you feel like you can ride safely in a group, start racing. Only after you've raced can you possibly have the faintest clue as to what might suit you and what you have a yen to do. While going to Catskills will be fun, the distances and style of category five racing is such I strongly recommend doing your cat five time as simply as possible close to home.

Racing begins this weekend, but do join us at the track tomorrow morning.

Hey guys, so today I did the Cat3/4 race in CP.. (congrats to all who placed) and felt really shitty. I started off in the front, come the second lap I was off the back... my arm has been hurting preety bad so i decided to end my race half way through the second lap (mentally I wasn't "in it" either) Now I started racing last year, and after my 4 upgrade I placed top 10 at FBF, top 10 at Catskills, and got good, solid results overall. 6 months later I come back and I get out sprinted by about 11 cat 5 riders at Branchbrook 4/5. (No offense to cat 5 guys, you kicked butt today at cp) I feel like my fitness has degraded over the past few months and I can't figure out why. I know that no one peaks in their performance the second week of March, I know that I'm not the best sprinter, and I know that I'm a bit rusty in pack riding, but that doesn't explain my loss of fitness out of races and in training rides. The records that I've been keeping also show that I am at about the same place this year as I was last year in March, which doesn't make any sense.

I did about 6.5k miles last year, and on average had 10 hour weeks of mostly base training in December and January. Last month I started doing some interval-type speed work and rode in local group rides here on Staten Island, nothing crazy. I rested for about 2 weeks in Dec/ Jan but kept active with cross training. I work very little so I wanted to get more time in but didn't want to push it. I mentioned all of this because at first I thought I was just over-training and burning out but that doesn't seem to be the case either.

Is there like a "sophomore slump" thing that exists in cycling? I was hoping my winter training would at least keep in the same shape I ended last season with, but all that went south as far as I can see. Thanks for any feedback/thoughts/ help guys. (If you want to just throw out some articles about this back at me that's fine too)

Wojciech,

There are so many different causes, possibilities. The first thing is there is no necessary sophomore slump.

There are different kinds of fitness. Your overall fitness could be good, it's just that you don't have much race fitness at this moment. (this is where measurement devices like speedometers, heart rate monitors, and power meters come in handy)

It could be that you just haven't ridden enough with others yet. It's hard to replicate the sudden, hard efforts of racing against others if you're riding solo all the time. You can chase cars, motorcycles, jump between lights, but it helps to have other humans whose plans you don't know.

There is a funny thing about training. Riding steady makes you better at riding steady. It can do great things to develop your aerobic base and it can increase your threshold, but you need high intensity to sprint and get used to attacking and being attacked in races. The longer you can remain aerobic in a race is indicative of how long you'll last in the field; it's what allows you to compete. But it's the sharp efforts that make the winning difference.

So...don't get discouraged. Mix in some sprints, some one-minute efforts, and all this should come around.

Second part...arm. Don't know what the pain is about. But there is the soft, annoying kind, and the sharp kind. The soft will usually go away fairly easily, and you can help it along with aspirin and ice. The hard you should definitely be more pro-active about. You probably should stay in the race if it's the former, you shoud probably contemplate dropping out of its the latter.

Just as a collegial recommendation, and it goes to everyone. If you have teammates in the race, stay in to help them if you're not riding well. Avoid dropping out of races in general because it can become a habit and so much of racing well is about dealing with discomfort. And if you have to drop out, let your teammates know, either before you drop, or on the next lap by standing on the side of the road and getting their attention

I say don't read too much into it. So many variables can impact how you feel the day of race. There will be days when you have great legs and get great results...but also days when you have bad legs and get good results.

You have a strong squad in the 4s, so focus on riding well and doing your role in the group until you start to feel better. The results will come soon enough.

To add to what JP has already said:

One thing that stood out to me while reading your question was the following statement:

"The records that I've been keeping also show that I am at about the same place this year as I was last year in March, which doesn't make any sense."

I'm not sure if you are talking about mileage, watts, HR, times of certain climbs or whatever benchmarks you've set for yourself. But If that statement is true, then in fact you haven't lost any fitness at all. It just means that your competition is a little bit tougher than you right now. Which is okay. It gives you something to work towards.

Now, from a physiological point of view, there is a theory that suggests that if you continue to apply the same kinds of stress to your muscles, that once they have grown stronger and adapted, that you can actually stagnate and in fact lose strength, if new and varied stresses/forces aren't applied to your muscles allowing them to weaken, recover, adapt and grow stronger in response. At the moment, I can't find an authoritative source for this information, but I believe it to be true.

I would actually be surprised if this is what's going on with you, given the highly variable nature of bike racing and training that's built into our environment where we train, but more likely to set in to the person who hits the gym 3 times a week and does the same exercises, with the same weights, with the same repetitions week after week after week.

However, I will echo a point JP already made and is frequently made by lots of pro cyclists this time of year. And that is there is a difference between training fitness and race fitness. The latter is hard to get until you've been kicked around by some of your competitors for a few weeks. Also, don't get caught up in what category rider is putting the hurt to you.

"Cat 4" Gideon was crushing me on a group training ride a few weeks back. I wanted to cry every time Cat 3 Perlberg cranked up the watts another notch. And don't forget, when you got up early to meet us Manhattan crossers to take us to the Staten Island cross race, I was going cross-eyed trying to keep up with you. But I've still managed to handle my business in the early season races alright. I mean, I'm not shredding any legs (yet), but I'm doing my thing. And it's not because I can crank out mega-wattage.

Racing is infinitely complex and maddening and brilliant too.

Sometimes we struggle for reasons that have nothing to do with our fitness or thresholds or max wattages. There are probably literally 100,000 different things that effect our race performance on a given day. As an example, One of our racers struggled in the first race of the season, getting dropped early on in the race. The next week, he was raging and shredding legs all day long. Did he get that much fitter in just one week? If he did, I want some of what he's taking.

Okay, but enough of the metaphysical mumbo-jumbo.

A good training plan will give your body a varied mix of efforts that will closely mimic the kinds of forces and stresses you will encounter during a racing season. You definitely want to take a look at your routine, and make sure that you are building on what you did the days and week before in training and racing. You'll continue to need to build endurance miles, but the high intensity efforts should be there too. Consider a race one of those intensity days and throw in one more during the week. You'll also need to continue to get good threshold efforts in.

If you have a good fitness base, be careful that you are not going out just doing too many "medium hard" tempo/sub-threshold group rides. There is a time and place for that kind of riding, but at some point, usually as the summer comes, you need to be going very hard or very easy and not so much in between. Lots of people on the club will disagree with me here, but that's my opinion, based on my experiences. I find these kinds of rides are good at getting you tired, but don't train you well enough for the kinds of sharp accelerations and explosive intensity that is required to excel in racing situations. Of course you do need to be able to go "medium hard" with relative ease, because large chunks of bike races will be at this tempo for you, but my guess is that you've already got that station on your fitness dial pretty much tuned in.

Thanks JP, The arm wasn't that much of a deal, I probably just pulled something, disappeared the next day. I've never quit a race, and I thought I would never, but my mind just wouldn't let me continue that day. I was scared I would black out and cause a crash more then anything else, probably just a bad day (overly tired from the sudden early wakings). I'm going to try different intervals and mix it up a bit and see how that works out.

Michael, I was hoping that was the case but it doesn't seem like it is, hopefully it also works on a larger scale too- bad weeks and good weeks lol

Marc! firstly sorry for interrupting your cat 5 tactics talk that morning. Well since March of last year - August/ September I would like to think I improved, and my indoor trainer benchmarks, 1 hour "tt" efforts, and Hr zones all show that. I'm still trying to pin point where all that went down the drain, but somewhere between October and February I started losing all of that gained fitness hence I ended up at the same point this year as I was last year.

The "Middle ground training" comment really makes sense and I can definitely see how I'm guilty of that now. I guess it's all about trial and error. What would you consider a good intensity workout on the other day when not racing? Would it be hard intervals or just trying to mimic a race pace? I have a pretty good idea at what my hear rate is at during certain parts of the local races so I could use that.

Thanks for the help guys, I appreciate it heaps

I came across this on the wattage list (on google groups). People might find it interesting.


<http://groups.google.com/group/wattage/t/352fd5f853afee16>Variation of heart rate in training

draffin <nelson.shaw@gmail.com> Mar 16 01:59AM -0700 <#digest_top>^


Hi all,

I've looked everywhere, but I can't seem to find much info on how
heart rate changes in regard to power zones over a short period of
back-to-back training days.

Let me explain what I'm asking:

I've found recently that if I have a complete day off, then the next
day my HR when riding seems to be alot higher than at the same power
level later on in the week (with no days off). I've had a lactate test
done fairly recently, which determined my FTP and HR at 300w and
170bpm respectively.

A couple of weeks ago, doing 3x8min intervals on the trainer @ 300w my
HR went up to the high 170s and 180s. Today while doing 4x10min
intervals I was lucky to get it up to 167bpm but I was putting out
more power (320 - 340w avg). This was after a hard criterium race
yesterday. I keep thinking that the PM (Quarq) must be off, but I
manually calibrate before every ride and then auto calibrate (pedal
backwards 5+ times) several times during my rides.

Has anyone else had the same thing, with required HR for a given power
(in my case around LT) being lower after a few days back-to-back
training? And additionally, having the HR being higher after a
complete rest day?

On a side note, before I had a PM my coach would prescribe of the
basis of HR, but I'd always have trouble getting to the required HR
unless it was the day after a complete rest.

Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers

Nelson



Andy Coggan <acoggan@earthlink.net> Mar 16 05:32AM -0700 <#digest_top>^

> On a side note, before I had a PM my coach would prescribe of the
> basis of HR, but I'd always have trouble getting to the required HR
> unless it was the day after a complete rest.

Your observations described above are exceedingly common. At least in
part, they have to do w/ transient changes in plasma, and hence total
blood, volume. W/o the ability to quantify power output, however, many
people are simply unaware this normal variation in heart rate.

Andy Coggan

A question for the group: I Googled around a bit and it seems really difficult to find solid, contemporary, trustworthy advice on race day diet regimes (and training day too). I'm reading things like "you have a 30 minute window post-race to maximize recovery". I'd prefer to avoid wading through all the researchketing, sponsored by Hershey's. I see Hammer nutrition at many bike shops but they have 24 or so products!? These guys are pricey but they get prop's on the boards. http://www.firstendurance.com/ultragen.html
So, any advice on products that do the biz without micro-dosing?

Cheers,
John

P.S. Does Kissena have a fuel sponsor?

I've been typing a lot today, so I'm going to keep this brief. It's real, it's true. For post ride/race recovery on the cheap...

Chocolate milk.

Is mid-late Spring too late to work-in some weight-training for leg strength?

I will be picking-up my core strength exercizes, but wondering if it might be good to develop strength and power with some off-the-bike resistance training.

john,

The research on the 'glycemic window,' the post-exercise period when you're body is super-charged and any calories will speed to the muscles, is that it is open anywhere from 15-60 minutes after exercise. Might even be 120 minutes. Still, you can't go wrong by putting calories in your body as soon as you can stomach it.

The research of what to ingest varies. Some say mostly carbs, others mostly protein, but all suggest a mix.

The way to ingest is pretty simple. Drink. It's hard to chew when you're tired and liquid calories get digested faster, easier, and get into your blood faster.

Every time I interview a person at a recovery drink company, I ask how their product compares with chocolate milk. All acknowledge that a sugared milk beverage is excellent and easy and hard to beat.

So...I recommend experimenting. Chocolate milk, vanilla milk, chai milk, yogurt, milk shakes, mixes from whomever. Find what 1. you enjoy drinking, 2. agrees with your stomach, 3. agrees with your caloric needs, 4. agrees with the atmospheric conditions (leaving a milk beverage out for three hours on a hot day is nothing you want to drink), 5. agrees with your idea of what you should spend on it.

Currently, I'm taking a bottle of Powerbar recovery drink with me to races. I fill up the bottle right before I leave the house and currently, it's still cold when I finish the race. But I'm not terribly picky. Before the Powerbar stuff, I was using Accelerade. I often buy YooHoo or Nesquik on the way to races, or, right after races. At Battenkill, I keep a fin in my pocket and ride to the nearest general store, about 500 meters after teh finish line to get a bottled Hershey milkshake (600+ calories in one bottle).

When I come home after a long ride, I currently prefer making a yogurt-based smoothie with frozen fruit.

I try to suck down the drink as soon as I can after the race finish. At home, I used to leave a drink mixed in the fridge. Now I just take off my shoes and get out the yogurt.

The First Endurance stuff tastes good and has lots of calories. I find it too pricey for my lifestyle.

Chocolate milk is nice and I often rely on it as a recovery product, but after long training sessions or hard races I do use sport recovery products. You may need to try a few before you find what you like. I can tell you what I have used, but our tastes may differ.
Hammer - recoverite. Absolutely awful. I could not stand the taste at all. And the same goes for every other hammer product I have tried.
ZipVit recovery. I'm indifferent about the taste - it's OK. It's best made with warm water as it goes 'clumpy' otherwise.
Accelerade R4. I like the taste
FE - Ultragen. I'm a big fan of all of their drinks (not so much their gels and bars though).

All of these drinks are a start to the recovery process. After training I have them post stretch but pre shower, which is in that 30 min window. Then after showering and any required bike maintenance, etc then I have a small snack. Toast with PB & Nutella happens to be a solid fave in this household.

Norm, you can incorporate weight training into your program at any time, however, any time spent in the gym, will be time away from the bike. I've been lifting on and off ever since I was 12. There were a few years where I did cycling specific weight workouts, with different phases (power, endurance, etc) too. And frankly, I've never felt it made much of a difference. I mean, I looked better in a bathing suit, but that's about it. I'm almost completely neutral on the subject of weight training for cyclists. I'm sure it's really great for some too though.

If you do decide to give it a go, remember, it's incredibly easy to hurt yourself while pumping iron. Good form is essential. If you don't know what you are doing (most gym rats have terrible lifting form), try and seek out some good "how to" advice. Also, start light with the weights. You are going to be putting a lot of new kinds of stresses to the body, and it needs to come up to speed slowly, or you risk injury, muscles, tendons and ligaments.

I used to be addicted to Endurox, but it's expensive. Really, really love the stuff, though.

Nowadays I just eat a bar (with some protein content) and drink some Heed after a hard effort. Processed carbs, isolated whey protein, grainy vitamin additives -- everything a human could possibly need to be ready for the next workout.

Alternatively, if I ride in the morning, I just stop in someplace for a skim mocha or sugary latte -- basically sweetened milk, just with some caffeine. Hard to argue with over a century of Euro-pro tradition.

thanks Mark. Understood on the importance of form.

Much appreciate all the advice guys. Chocolate milk conspiracies aside, I went with Endurox R4 (recovery) and Cyctomax Performance drink (carbs+electrolyte) and a bunch of gel packs. I'm pretty amazed at how good I feel right now after 5 hours of riding. Definitely an expensive habit though.

I'm a big fan of a nice hopped up IPA or a nice Belgian Farmhouse Ale for a good recovery. Both pack a good amount of carbs with tons of flavor. Especially after a Sat. morning race, there's nothing like throwing back a 6'er to get your wknd going. I think they're great for pre-race too!! I try to get a couple down to really get my body going. Not sure if this is contributing to all the crashes this year in the 5s, memory's a little hazy...

I believe the chocolate milk is a good idea, but we are a Brooklyn based team. There is only one appropriate Brooklyn recovery drink. Egg Cream.

U-Bet Syrup
Milk
Seltzer

Use the directions on the back of the U-Bet bottle, awesome drink and perfect for recovery.

Oh goody my favourite forum can 'o worms. I'll post my rant about eating soon.
But with all do respect to recovery, um POST RACE BEER, anyone? Why the hell else does anyone ride around in the hot sun for several hours?

http://chasingstupid.tumblr.com/post/4186806335/hot-fast

Looked through the forum and couldn't find an appropriate place for this, but I don't think the sandbox does John's question justice:

Posted By: John SandersonTraining question

I really didn't train much over the winter, maybe one or two real rides a week (last year I rode a lot, including several centuries and one multi day tour in the mountains) I started riding/training again shortly before the first CP race this year. To the point: I did a 30 minute time trial effort on my rollers to find my lactate threshold heart rate about three weeks ago. Since then I've been getting longer rides in mixed with some hill work. Once a week I do a 30 minute time trial at lactate threshold but the past two weeks I've found it hard to reach the threshold I established a few weeks ago. I tried on rollers and on 9w before the big hills. I can manage maybe 96% of my LTHR, pretty well recovered. Around 100% I feel like I'm starting to sprint.

So my question is does LTHR lower with fitness gains? Seems like a couple few weeks is a short time for this change.

John,

A few quick comments:

1) Heart-rate and be very variable because of different things like accumulated fatigue, time of day, etc.

2) doing a hard test like that once a week might be a bit much, I don't test more than once per month.

3) for some people, the "getting back into shape" curve is really really steep, a few weeks of decent working out and they see drastic improvements. Others need a longer more methodical approach. Maybe you are finding out you can get into shape quickly. Doing hard intervals like that certainly don't hurt.

Mike