Will, Keith's point on yesterday's ride struck a chord with me; if Ricky really is on all other days a calm, cool dude - it is possible for his outburst to be rare. For all we know he has some horrible problems elsewhere in his life and he's hanging on for dear life. If that is the case, we should try and reach out through whatever channels we have to mend this fence before things escalate any farther than they have.

As an anecdote, my wife once had a driver get our of his car and threaten her with violence, only to see the same guy IN THE FRONT ROW OF A FUNERAL the very same day (they were at the same funeral - *aaawkward!*)

If that fails, this is the edit I'd propose.

Posted By: WilliamDCok

Ricky actions in the race and his behavior afterwards were really screwed up and I think its important that you know this, especially if something bad happens in the following races involving him.

I would amend this portion to read:

I am treating Ricky's threats as sincere; his actions in the race prove that he is willing to commit violent physical acts that could have catastrophic consequences on their subjects and those around them. My options at this point are extremely limited and entirely unsatisfactory. I can either:

1) Stop racing with Ricky or
2 )Pursue legal action including a restraining order or
3) Continue racing and place myself and those around me at risk of Ricky's retaliation

As the race organizer you have the authority to refuse entry to your races both to racers and to teams (ed note: is there a USAC rule we can site?) and implement public policies that inform riders of same powers.

Please consider this a formal request for to you to intervene quickly and firmly to stop this escalation of threats and dangerous behavior from Ricky.

I eagerly await your reply,

Signed, WDC

It's nice he wants to apologize, but then demanding one from you, when you did nothing wrong, is such a power-trip and childish maneuver, I wouldn't do it either. Not to stoop to his level of "you cursed first!" silliness, but it's not sincere at all for him to place those stipulations on the fence-mending. He has either calmed down and realized the error he made, or he's still protecting some image he has of himself as being the victim, and in a way justifying his response. There no equivalency in his actions and yours. He was 100% out of line.

i agree, this is unacceptable no matter how he tries to spin it. even if you were at fault, which you weren't. there is never, ever a reason to resort to physical violence...we are huMAN.

The heat of the moment has dissipated. The key questions are:

Is he going to hurt someone in a race or on the street?
If yes, what is Charlie going to do?

That was a full on douche move by Ricky. I teach kindergarten and have never seen a tantrum that approached Ricky's on Saturday. For a guy who enjoys screaming about being, "A MAN" Ricky sure behaved like a child who did not get his way. I've seen some roid rage incidents in the past and Ricky's meltdwon was eerily similar. William does not owe that guy an apology. An apology only validates Ricky's behavior. An apology says, "You triggered my apoplectic meltdown....it was really your fault that I threatened, intimidated and bullied you."
That guy should be suspended for making a verbal threat in front of about 20 witnesses. If Kissena has any say in the matter, they should ban the guy for the rest of series. That's all I got.

So Jules the rulebook does have something about this in the Rider Conduct section of Chapter 1. the particular rules that are relevant are 1Q6c and 1Q9.

1Q6. Abuse.
(a) No rider or licensee may be disrespectful toward Race Directors, officials, riders or spectators [warning for minor offense; possible relegation of rider; and/or up to a $50 fine].
(b) No rider or licensee may use foul or abusive language or conduct during a race event [disqualification and 15 days suspension].
(c) No licensee may assault (an unlawful attempt, coupled with the present ability, to commit a violent injury on the person of another) or do battery (any willful and unlawful use of force or violence upon the person of another) to anyone connected with any event (including but not limited to riders, spectators, public officials, etc...) held under a USA Cycling permit. [disqualified from the event, prohibited from participating in another event for 72 hours & suspended for up to one (1) year after due process].
1Q7. No rider may make an abrupt motion so as to interfere with the forward progress of another rider, either intentionally or by accident [relegation or disqualification; possible 20 days suspension if a crash results].
1Q8. Dangerous Rider. Any rider who appears to present a danger to the other competitors may be disqualified by the Chief Referee, either before, during, or after a race.
1Q9. Pushing or pulling among riders is prohibited in all races except the Madison and then only between members of the same team. No rider may hold back or pull an opponent by any part of his or her clothing, equipment or body [relegation or disqualification].

Easiest route might be random testing & elimination as a result.

My feeling was that Ricky calmed down and he brought up apologizing. I've seen him heated occasionally, but my interactions with him have been quite pleasant. he does have more going on in his life with his child, but that shouldn't be an excuse. I get the power trip thing. I've said what I have to and I will happily talk to him more, but don't know what that will do.
E

Posted By: Jeff OwensIt's nice he wants to apologize, but then demanding one from you, when you did nothing wrong, is such a power-trip and childish maneuver, I wouldn't do it either. Not to stoop to his level of "you cursed first!" silliness, but it's not sincere at all for him to place those stipulations on the fence-mending. He has either calmed down and realized the error he made, or he's still protecting some image he has of himself as being the victim, and in a way justifying his response. There no equivalency in his actions and yours. He was 100% out of line.

send an email to Alan Atwood. He is NY's member of the Technical committee, i.e., he is in charge of mentoring NY officials and helping to make them better. If the incident happened in view of the officials and if they did nothing, then they need to improve and their "superiors" need to respond. Also CC Jeff Poulin, President of NYSBRA (NYSBRAPresident@gmail.com), also CC Susie Diller at USAC as she seems to be quite helpful and responsive (sdiller@usacycling.org).

Charlie can't exculde anyone in particular. He could make the race invite only and then not invite Ricky, but that won't happen.

Posted By: Dan ReinersSo Jules the rulebook does have something about this in the Rider Conduct section of Chapter 1. the particular rules that are relevant are 1Q6c and 1Q9.

1Q6. Abuse.
(a) No rider or licensee may be disrespectful toward Race Directors, officials, riders or spectators [warning for minor offense; possible relegation of rider; and/or up to a $50 fine].
(b) No rider or licensee may use foul or abusive language or conduct during a race event [disqualification and 15 days suspension].
(c) No licensee may assault (an unlawful attempt, coupled with the present ability, to commit a violent injury on the person of another) or do battery (any willful and unlawful use of force or violence upon the person of another) to anyone connected with any event (including but not limited to riders, spectators, public officials, etc...) held under a USA Cycling permit. [disqualified from the event, prohibited from participating in another event for 72 hours & suspended for up to one (1) year after due process].
1Q7. No rider may make an abrupt motion so as to interfere with the forward progress of another rider, either intentionally or by accident [relegation or disqualification; possible 20 days suspension if a crash results].
1Q8. Dangerous Rider. Any rider who appears to present a danger to the other competitors may be disqualified by the Chief Referee, either before, during, or after a race.
1Q9. Pushing or pulling among riders is prohibited in all races except the Madison and then only between members of the same team. No rider may hold back or pull an opponent by any part of his or her clothing, equipment or body [relegation or disqualification].

Don't the rules Dan cited allow Charlie to ban Ricky for

1Q6 (a), (b), (c)
1Q7
1Q8 and
1Q9

?

the Chief Referee must submit recommendations to do such things. The promoter is no longer in charge when the race starts.

Ah. Who is the chief referee at these races?

Maurice (?) came over near enough to hear the screaming and threats from Ricky, then just turned and walked away.

Maybe William needs to write to him. But seeing as how he'll probably not doing anything, yeah, go above his head.

My two cents:

First of all, Ricky behaved like a class A numb nutz and I despise when men do that whole predictable, belligerent "don't disrespect me" thing. It's pathetic, truly.

That said, I think there's another way of looking at this which is not "which course of action will give us the most justice?"

We might ask instead "what is the course of action that will cause Ricky to STFU, keep WDC free of stressful drama, and keep the body of one of our best riders and that of his fellow racers safe?"

To me, the answer to that question is - take him up on his offer and go exchange apologies. Just apologize for cursing at him during the race and say some BS like "I can see how the way I responded in the heat of the moment may have pissed you off. It was not my intent to make you feel disrespected and I'm sorry that happened."

Do I think you owe him an apology? Of course not. I stood there and watched you calmly handle the situation while he acted ridiculously. There is no argument to be had about who was right and who was wrong in that moment.

But if you give him the apology, it will be over. You will have been exponentially the bigger man and you won't have to feel stress when you see him at races and wonder what he might do. And in the end, you can rest assured that you will always be a smarter, cooler, and more gifted person than he is.

I just fear that if we escalate the situation via the rulebook its only going to make your life harder and more stressful. We might feel good to get "justice" - but with it we might also get DRAMA, or, God forbid, violence.

<

I see this thing differently from most of you, but I wasn't there, so maybe that's the reason.

If the desired outcome is William and Ricky being able to race safely with each other (and even safely run into each other on the street), the solution is for William to personally bury the hatchet with Ricky. If the desired outcome must also include William's idea of fairness/justice having been served, this solution will not be satisfactory.

Imagine a world in which William and Ricky have made peace. I can see only two downsides: 1. William (and probably Ricky) will feel as if he had to say things he didn't want to say, or shouldn't have had to say; and 2. There is a chance that the uneventful outcome might embolden Ricky to behave similarly in future races.

I honestly think that might be the best realistic outcome.

Notifying the NYPD is a bad idea, especially in light of the fact that two racers just got themselves ARRESTED at one of our races. If getting the NYPD involved in our Prospect Park races and/or Charlie's operation sounds like a good thing to others, I'm curious as to how, and I think Charlie would be as well.

Trying to escalate this issue up to our cycling governing bodies to get Ricky sanctioned warned or whatever has many possible outcomes. But in all likelihood, he'd still be allowed to race. We all know that. And what then? I think that's called a "powder keg."

I'm not saying Charlie and his crew shouldn't know about what happened, and whether William and Ricky have smoothed things over between them. I don't think secrecy is required or anything like that, and that information might help them better manage upcoming races.

Anyway, be sure to consider the outcomes. OK, that's my piece.

Alright, who let the grownups onto the forum?

Back to your offices, all. We'll continue to ponder Defcon-esque escalations...

Did someone say Defcon? Cue War Games quotes!

http://www.moviesounds.com/wargames/sucks.wav

http://www.moviesounds.com/wargames/sprkplug.wav

thank you, everyone, for the input

i think that the best thing to do is to:

(a) tell charlie THAT IT HAPPENED in order to establish a paper trail, but not demand official justice from him, as i really really doubt that will happen, and

(b) talk to Ricky myself and smooth thing over (within reason).

I don't race the 1/2/3's...but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
I don't know Ricky...but I know there was quite the hullabaloo a few years back when he was DQ's from the Mengoni race for entering the joggers lane in the sprint. I recall his team threw out the race card, which is all class. I saw him come underneath that guy Lance at a Prospect finish I put him in the hospital with broken bones all over. I hear he pushed William, with his hand in a sprint lead up and I totally witnessed his Mel Gibson like meltdown on Sat. I don't subsribe to the appeasement policy as this will not deter a future meltdown. There needs to be a warning issued. It needs to be clear and specific, ie. no pushing other cyclist with your hands & no beligerent tirades or you will be suspended. If there is NO recourse for his actions, they will continue. yacks
http://nyvelocity.com/content/race-results/2008/hangover-82508

FWIW, Charlie can talk to him (likely he won't) but its up to the OFFICIALS...
Look, I'm not saying we got the best officials, but its the officials we got. If we want to make officials better, you can get your license paid for by the club and Charile will happily employ you at $70 per race (or $50, who knows). If you don't race much, it is a good way to make racing better. I race still and it makes it tricky to officiate often.

Welcome to New York fellas.

This is all bullshit guys. Ragot, no offense, but you and JP seem to tolerate's NY's biggest racing assholes better than most.

This was not an isolated incident. It's part of a general pattern of behavior by the a handful of the sprinters. It wasn't the first time he's done something like this and it won't be the last. They have the attitude that if it comes down to a group sprint, they have the right to push people out of their way. Incidental contact and some bumping here and there is part of the game, but taking your hands off the bars and physically moving someone off their line, is both illegal and dangerous.

So what's going to happen the next time one of us gets pushed. Someone's going to get hurt. If Maurice turned a blind ear to the encounter and does not respond appropriately than he's as much to blame as any of you who think making nicey-nice with assholes is the best way to handle this.

Swearing at someone in the field during racing, (i.e. what the fuck are you doing?!) is not dangerous. Taking your hands off the bars and physically pushing someone is. Charlie often says, at the beginning of these races, "these are fun, training races..." but if he does not respond to this situation explicitly, then he's full of hot-air.

This thread is really pissing me off. Sometimes, most of the times, I really hate NYC racing.

A mentor of mine asked me on a couple of occasions, "Is this the hill you're willing to die on?"

Trying to reform NYC sprinters is one bitch of a hill to charge.

I've seen Marty Nothestein almost kill Bobby Lea with a move in a madison. I've seen some nasty shit. The answer is to keep on racing. I've had my altercations and unless I am willing to give up racing and become THE NYC official who tolerates no shit, I am really not going to change things. Its not happening from the current crew of officials. And FWIW, the last official to try was simply accused of racism repeatedly. This despite Nat Comms and UCI Commisaires coming to officiate and making the same calls. No racism, just bad riding. The result? The official doesn't officiate anymore. A strong official run out of the sport.

I stood up to the Burrowes and their at the time BS licenses with said official. The police had to break it up. Not too many people are willing to stand up like that. And if you're going to race with them in the future, you're nuts to put up with it. You know it, I know it. Its sad, but its the state of affairs.

Christian won't get fucked with though. That I guarantee. I will teach him how to outsprint all those MFs.

I am sympathetic with William's sense of injustice, but also wary of the status quo of the peleton described eloquently by yacks. Can we expect to change the bad behaviors that have colored, if not dominated, last weekends race scene? As an alternative course of action, I would offer the idea of mediation. Probably completely impracticle, but if someone with a neutral race card and with an impartial stance could be found, they might offer a venue for Willy and Ricky to talk things out.

Posted By: Marc Bertucco...So what's going to happen the next time one of us gets pushed. Someone's going to get hurt. If Maurice turned a blind ear to the encounter and does not respond appropriately than he's as much to blame as any of you who think making nicey-nice with assholes is the best way to handle this.

By that I assume you mean me, Jeff, and Ragot.

Seems a bit hyperbolic...

I think those of us making "nicey-nice" are simply giving a sober take on what will best protect William and everyone else.

As one of a few who stood behind William during the entire incident, I agree that some real punitive action would be satisfying to see, from Charlie or USAC or whoever is empowered to give it. But do we really think we're going to get it? I don't. And when we don't, I think we'll have just made a crazy unreasonable numb nuts more pissed off and more dangerous.

The Park (race) is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JcBAdnVHZY

Tommy Lee Jones to Kissena

OMG...is that sheeet for reals? Hilarious.