Bicycle Tech/Gear Discussion Thread

Dec 07, 2013 at 10:10 PM

FWIW I have owned three different kinds of power-devices:

Powertap

SRM

Quarq

Powertap was nice, but *did* give me some weird numbers in really inclement weather and requires zeroing. You are stuck with one wheel for racing & training.

SRM always works, rain or shine. No zeroing required. Cannot change or service *anything* like chainrings, battery, etc.

Qarq always works (2 seasons of CX and lots of gnarly weather) No zeroing required and can change *anything* like chainrings, battery et myself. Hands down the best alternative if you can swing it.

j

dstokes

Dec 07, 2013 at 10:13 PM

Brendan Rigby said:

..

what is a cord angle?

I don't know what chord angle is in this context. But you will remember from high school geometry (you did go to high school, right?) That a chord is any arbitrary line cutting through a circle. So the path of each spoke could be called a chord and the angle may be relative to the radius, or tangent, or something. But I can't follow this logic and didn't read Brandt. I just copied the placing pattern of an old wheel, listened to the pitch, and called it a day.

dstokes

Dec 07, 2013 at 10:16 PM

The picture seems broken, so here it is again

download.jpg

ian ellis

Dec 07, 2013 at 11:38 PM

@Jeff, the new typeS P2M is shipping in Feb, the previous version should still be available for prompt delivery.

IN addition to good temperature compensation it also uses accelerometer based cadence which means you don't need to attach a magnet to you frame.

With regards to SRM - the issue about not being able to change chainrings is somewhat of a myth. If you stick with the same make/model of chainring you can swap them without any need to to return the cranks to SRM for recalibration.

Ros Knopov

Dec 08, 2013 at 12:14 AM

Gonna switch it up a little here from powermeter talk.

I'm looking to do a bunch of track racing in 2014 and the current track steel frame I have now is better suited for commuter duties than racing, as the BB flexes a lot when I'm pushing it with any decent power. I am looking to pick up a new track frameset in the next month or so and have narrowed it down to a few frames that look like good ones (going with aluminum I think). I have a good idea for wheels & parts, but not frameset. I'm considering:

1- Van Dessel Drag Strip Courage

2- Affinity Kissena
3- Cervelo T1

4- Fuji Track Pro (Now called “Track 1.1”)

Would appreciate your perspectives, especially knowing the local track venues and experience with any of these bikes. Thnx.

mugwump

Dec 08, 2013 at 03:00 AM

RE: powermeter calibration.

I've calibrated both SRM and Quarq. My feeling is with both, you should do it if you change chainrings, even if it is for identical rings. Interestingly, while I haven't checked my Quarq since I calibrated this Elsa in February, I had started to calibrate the SRM every three months or so.

It's actually very easy to do both. There are instructions online. with Quarq, you need an iPhone, the Qalvin program and a dongle from Wahoo fitness. With SRM, you just need the head unit and a spreadsheet to plot the values and do a little multiplying--and this can be found online.

My concern with Power2Max is how few people have them, as the feedback of a crowd can be helpful in figuring out the frequency and nature of problems.

mugwump

Dec 08, 2013 at 03:02 AM

Ros,

I bought an old Fuji Track Pro a few years back. It was pretty well used. I'm not a track frame expert, but the bike handles fine and seems really durable. I'll bet if you keep on craiglist, you'll be able to find some steals.

Thierry Bonnaire

Dec 08, 2013 at 12:43 PM

I read that Pioneer is now providing a crank based power meter unit that also includes pedal stroke analysis. My brand new powertap is not working properly and I'm a bit distraught about the situation.

twoyacks

Dec 08, 2013 at 01:10 PM

Why not Stages?...cheaper, easier, cleaner to mount and move to other bikes.

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2013/06/stages-review-update.html

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2013/09/cycling-metrics-streaming.html

ian ellis

Dec 08, 2013 at 04:26 PM

The pioneer seems expensive, requires installation by a dealer only and is very new. Likewise the new Rotor cranks are also so new that they are having regular and significant firmware upgrades to correct issues.

Both have potential, but it is early days yet for them.

I think the biggest issue with the stages is the fact that it just registers power of the left leg (and the doubles that to give indicated values) and the two potential drawbacks of this are:
1) if you have a stronger and weaker leg - then this may be an issue - but nobody has done a study to say how big the imbalance is before the power # is unreliable
2) sudden bursts of power in the NP range might not get detected correctly. Think sprinting out of a corner in a crit or a quick burst of high cadence over the top of climb to close a gap. Those few seconds of info will be compromised. How much you care about that is a personal choice and relative to the type of riding you do.
The studies tend to say that for regular riding, group rides, tempo, threshold, VO2 level training. And TT races the stages is basically no better or worse than any other PM.
For Road Racing with the constant changes in pace, cadence, power, etc it may not be the #1 option.

Having said all of that I have a Stages on order to replace an SRM I have. My reasons are:
a) having used a computrainer and spin analysis i know my legs are equally weak
b) i will be using it for long rides

alyoshas

Dec 08, 2013 at 05:12 PM

Thierry, call cycleops and have them help you with it. they're good w/ that, you may have to pay for shipping if you send it to them but thats it.

I'm thinking about getting power2max to work w/ my campy drivetrain. i plan to purchase rotor cranks and meter from the website and then buy stronglight CT2 rings or rotor rings. I hear that they are compatible w/ campagnolo 11.

Jules

Dec 08, 2013 at 06:34 PM

The number one reason for avoiding any of the new meters and sticking to the old (Power Tap/SRM/Quarq) is reliability and warranties.

There are very few manufacturers who have been at it for as many years as the top three, and nobody wants to be sitting on a Mad Fiber (sorry @Vlad) situation 18 months from now when they have a problem.

Ros Knopov

Dec 08, 2013 at 07:01 PM

mugwump Thanks. Fuji definitely seems like a good option that won't break the bank. But I honestly do not mind spending a few hundred bucks extra for a better ride though. Van Dessel Drag Strip Courage is one that looks like a step up (and don't we still get a discount with VD of some sort?). I heard that a few humans on our club used to own the Drag Strip. Any opinions of how it rides?

twoyacks

Dec 08, 2013 at 07:06 PM

Jules said:

The number one reason for avoiding any of the new meters and sticking to the old (Power Tap/SRM/Quarq) is reliability and warranties.

There are very few manufacturers who have been at it for as many years as the top three, and nobody wants to be sitting on a Mad Fiber (sorry @Vlad) situation 18 months from now when they have a problem.

Yes Jules....what do Apple & Samsung know about phones? Stick with the Blackberry...while you are at at, stay away from that pesky SRAM company as well. Only Campy & Shimano can be trusted for reliability and warranties.

Jules

Dec 08, 2013 at 07:07 PM

@Ros we do get a discount with Van Dessel; call to inquire (I think it is like 30% but it depends on the bike)

Ros Knopov

Dec 08, 2013 at 07:08 PM

Jules said:

@Ros we do get a discount with Van Dessel; call to inquire (I think it is like 30% but it depends on the bike)

That's cool. Thanks.

eragot

Dec 08, 2013 at 07:19 PM

The new van Dessel track bike had me drooling over it.

Jules

Dec 08, 2013 at 07:22 PM

eragot said:

The new van Dessel track bike had me drooling over it.

http://www.vandesselsports.com/?page_id=21

Gasp!

Ros Knopov

Dec 08, 2013 at 07:25 PM

Jules said:

eragot said:

The new van Dessel track bike had me drooling over it.

http://www.vandesselsports.com/?page_id=21

Gasp!

It is DAMN sexy

JohnMalcolmson

Dec 08, 2013 at 08:03 PM

@Brendan Here's my take.

Without loctite you'll always need to be futzing with your wheels. I prefer loctite on the spokes — although a connoisseur would say you just didn't build/maintain the wheel properly, loctite = less truing needed and less chance of a wheel coming apart during a race (a pretty big deal in a low spoke count wheel). The big thing is if your wheels keep coming out of true and you don't true quickly enough then the whole wheel is jeopardized and then you have to rebuild, and then you can't use the old spokes because they've stretched. When loctited wheels start to break spokes it's usually time for a rebuild because they are stressed to buggery, the spoke breaking will cascade. The negative also with Loctite is if you do need to true they sometime seize completely and you may need to cut the spoke out to retention.

Lubing spokes? Don't understand need, you just have to be careful not to "wind-up" any aero spokes when building/truing by using the correct tool to prevent the spoke from twisting (needlenose with cloth works).

mperlberg

Dec 08, 2013 at 08:38 PM

twoyacks said:

Jules said:

The number one reason for avoiding any of the new meters and sticking to the old (Power Tap/SRM/Quarq) is reliability and warranties.

There are very few manufacturers who have been at it for as many years as the top three, and nobody wants to be sitting on a Mad Fiber (sorry @Vlad) situation 18 months from now when they have a problem.

Yes Jules....what do Apple & Samsung know about phones? Stick with the Blackberry...while you are at at, stay away from that pesky SRAM company as well. Only Campy & Shimano can be trusted for reliability and warranties.

When you're the one sitting on a worthless ergomo pro powermeter that is totally unserviceable you might feel differently.

eragot

Dec 08, 2013 at 08:54 PM

Umm. The power2max is based on proven and reliable tech. The growing pains seem to have been dialled out and the version 2 shipping soon seems even better for battery placement. But not that much else.

From all my reading, I'd get one for $1100. The Quarq options are just that much more.

Brendan Rigby

Dec 08, 2013 at 08:54 PM

john, you have provided what is perhaps my favorite recent use of the english language on this forum:

John Malcolmson said:

stressed to buggery

to return to the discussion of lubricating nipples, i did it because when i turned the nipples, which were loctited at the factory, they made such a horrific din that i was afraid i was going to break something. i think the lubricant i used may have compromised the loctite, so now i'm getting some loosening.

one benefit of aero spokes is that you can see the twist more easily than with non-swaged/straight guage/non-butted spokes. for holding the spokes, i used this $6 tool: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008HGKE3C/ i do not recommend it for heavy-duty use; it is plastic, which means it will not scratch the spokes, but it shows signs of wear after one major truing session. when i used needle-nose and cloth, it was a pain in the ass and i ended up chipping paint off the spokes.

i like dstokes's casual approach, sauntering up alongside a well-built wheel and emulating its fine construction. despite my frequent ramblings about bike tech, i tend to think bicycles are pretty simple and probably overbuilt for the ~2 horsepower and ~100-200 lbs we subject them to. i pursue the subject more out of curiosity than the belief that reciting from The Book of Brandt is the only way to ward off wheel implosion.

edit: it removed my line breaks when i posted

twoyacks

Dec 08, 2013 at 08:55 PM

OH.... I just got owned....I thought the ergomo was the future. I was wrong about that one but so right about the betamax and the Santa dreidel.

BetaMax.jpg

21_Santa_SMALL_max200w.jpg

Jules

Dec 08, 2013 at 10:00 PM

@Yaks even apple had a steep learning curve...

Jules

Dec 08, 2013 at 10:04 PM

Wait a second? I can get Maple Leafs on my power2max?

#reconsidering

vlad

Dec 09, 2013 at 06:37 PM

I bought a Stages powermeter for my back-up bike(s); hasn't come in yet. I've also owned a Quarq Cinqo since 2011. It's the best and most beneficial cycling product I've ever bought.

I'm not ashamed of owning a set of Mad Fiber's. It's a privilege.

I'll let everyone worry about wtf they're going to do when stuff goes wrong while I enjoy (and beat the shit out of) my products.

Thank you.

twoyacks

Dec 09, 2013 at 06:56 PM

Oh Vlad...I find your take no prisoners smack invigorating! I'm invigorated ! Please let us know how the Stages meter works out. I have been using a powercal and am considering an upgrade. Keep on keeping on hoss...

mugwump

Dec 09, 2013 at 08:31 PM

re: Stages.

I have left-right balance on my Quarq elsa. It's interesting to watch. I favor my left leg over my right, but it varies, I'm often at about 53-47, but I can get up to 45-55 in some occasions, and 58-42 on others. I seem to be 50-50 or near there when out of the saddle and on rollers, but I favor my right when I accelerate. No idea if the Stages would give me higher power when looking at averages or not.

twoyacks

Dec 09, 2013 at 10:47 PM

Sweet Jezus !

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/12/bikes-and-tech/spotted-sram-prototype-electronic-drivetrain_310890

to celebrate...I offer 3 minutes of "creature"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mF6dCD8n2E