Bike Fit - Forum Archive

Mar 28, 2013 at 12:00 AM

Just got back from a fascinating trip to see Andy Pruitt and I thought I'd share some of the experience/insights. Fans of Pruitt will know of his Book. If you don't know of him, here is an interesting article.

So I've always ridden Speedplay X1 Pedals - mostly because when I first started riding I heard somewhere that "more float" meant "easier on your knees"

This year, after a great winter of training, my right knee started hurting, just under the kneecap. After a week or two off the bike (I couldn't pedal without significant pain) I decided this wasn't going away on it's own with the usual, rest, stretching and massage so booked a consultation with Pruitt.

His evaluation was methodical and precise - although I'd been unable to find the "spot" myself (you can't poke under your own kneecap) he zeroed in on it with one finger and found a spot on my retinuaculum by shifting my kneecap way over and poking underneath.

"Yup" he said, that's pretty common for guys with your build. Remarking on how flexible my feet & ankles are he declared, "The good news is this particular spot is very safe and responds very well to cortisone, the better news is I think we can fix this mechanically without a shot."

I was dumbfounded. After some more evaluation (I'm flexible - for a cyclist - and my core is strong "enough") we moved out to the bike room where I started riding on the trainer while his assistant guled "dots" (little white spheres) all over me - pelvis, knees, ankles, three on each foot, etc.

"Holy Cow!" he declared. After some discussion and arm waving I leanred that my right kneecap was wobbling back & forth from side to side with each pedal stroke. My pedal stroke is quite good up & down but because my feet & ankles are so flexible the inside of my knee was taking the pressure when the going got tough.

We did some 3d video capture to prove it but because the dots are glued to your skin this sort fo thing just wouldn't show up in a typical motion capture or Retul setup. If you look at film of me pedaling or motion capture my form looks great - very solid - but that kneecap is going all the wiggling.

To fix it they changed me to a Speedplay Zero pedal where they controlled the float and shimmed up my foot (each 1mm shim corresponds to a 1 degree tilt for the geeks out there) both beneath the cleat in inside the shoe and VOILA! No more kneecap squirming.

They made a few other changes like an extra 1/8th of an inch spindle, a different saddle (Romin from a Toupe) and an extra spacer in the stack but basically that was it. Magic - by the end of the five hour session (I brought my CX bike too) I'd pedaled more with less pain than I have in a month.

I went out there afraid I had Patellar Tendon Pain Syndrome which has a pretty shitty prognosis (ie you have it for life) and I'm on my way home with a new lease on cycling life.

I'm also really glad I went "Full Yoda" in seeking an expert; this one was definitely something that would not have been caught by the traditional (and fancy) bike fit methods.

One last note; the strips on the side of our kit are fantastic tools for bike fit; you can see really clearly the angle of the leg/hip/ on the saddle.

Sadly my phone died in Yoda's cave so I don't have any good photos to tweet, but Pruitt presents *exactly* like his picture on the cover of the book, and is completely willing to spend time with the anatomical models explaining

So who wants to start a Boulder Chapter of KCC?

vlad

Mar 28, 2013 at 03:33 AM

Sick dude!

Why the switch from the Toupe to the Romin? Scientific? Might have to low ball you on that S-Works saddle

eragot

Mar 28, 2013 at 11:11 AM

How much did Pruitt charge?

Jules

Mar 28, 2013 at 11:59 AM

@Vlad I can roll my hips farther forward without crunching the junk

@Ragot everything except the 3D Bike fit is covered by insurance - things like cleats, shims, footpads, etc ar extra. The 3D fit is a couple hundred bucks.

He didn't actually sell me the new seats/pedals for those I went to University Bikes where they stock custom width speedplays and have Andy Hampston's Giro winning bike hanging over the front door. (Dura Ace if you were wondering...)

eragot

Mar 28, 2013 at 01:07 PM

Good insurance.

JohnMalcolmson

Mar 28, 2013 at 02:22 PM

@Jules Great news!
Curious, was the Specialized Romin the S-Works or the Expert? And still 143mm? Does it feel markedly more comfortable? I rode the Romin when I was in NZ and really liked it, especially in the drops, completely different to the Arione. You're not able to move forward or backwards, position feels more 'locked in'. I would expect getting fore/aft position spot-on is more critical.

Also, fore/aft on the cleats; does he stick with the average between 1st and 5th metatarsal?

Does insurance cover wind tunnel?

Jules

Mar 28, 2013 at 02:23 PM

Oh I almost forgot the best part - extra watts! All that power lost to sloshing those pedals around goes back into my wheels, or so the Jedi says. I guess if I can't PR this year on the back of a fantastic winter I'll have to do it with magic shoes.

Jules

Mar 28, 2013 at 02:49 PM

@ John - I got the Romin EVO - I think the design is the same for both - I bought one "Pro" with carbon rails for the road bike and another (Expert) aluminum railed one for the CX. Looking online I see this year's Pro in white looks nicer than mine - I may have to fix that...

It is definitely both more "locked in" front to back - so you can really push back against it without smashing your junk - I don't think it is any more sensitive to fit; it was pretty easy to find a "good" spot on it. It also makes it easier (for me) to reach the drops.

I ride a 143 as tested on the "assometer" with 11cm between sit bones "Right in the middle of the bell curve" as Pruitt declared.

Re: cleats; for me we didn't move the cleat position front to back (midpoint of 5th & 1st) but we did "heel out" a fair bit from where I'd been and lock it down.

That, combined with the the 3 degree tilt keeps my tibia rock still through the pedal stroke - in theory this keeps the hamstring from holding the knee stable and thus getting overloaded (I always wondered why that hamstring was so tight!)

tito

Mar 28, 2013 at 07:36 PM

My understanding of the BG stuff regarding saddles is that comfort will depend on how much you tend to shift back and forth on the saddle - I know some folks feel like they're about to slide right off on the Romin. If you tend to park your butt in one position when you ride then the Romin might be a good racing saddle.

normanzo

Jun 13, 2013 at 02:39 AM

@Jules --just saw this... if you're still looking at getting a nicer looking saddle, here's the place to take your Romin:

http://busymanbicycles.blogspot.com/

Jules

Jun 13, 2013 at 02:40 AM

normanzo said:

@Jules --just saw this... if you're still looking at getting a nicer looking saddle, here's the place to take your Romin:

http://busymanbicycles.blogspot.com/

ooooooooooooooooooh!

normanzo

Jun 13, 2013 at 03:08 AM

I had saddle woes for a couple of years --I had upped my riding in my pre-racing days, but was on an awful Sella Italia thing that delivered perineal numbness in speedy fashion. When I got my I.F. bike I got a Fizik Arione CX and I loved it. However, long rides still resulted in the numbness. I got the Comp Cyclist saddle kit and ended up getting a Regal --wider helped alleviate the numbness, but other problems developed --my hip/hamstring problem and the pressure on my sit bones with that saddle just rubbed some scar tissue and kept the inflammation in tact. I tried Joe's Specialized Toupé in the 143 width and liked it enough to buy it from him. This saddle with its nice channel was awesome for its zero numbness factor... HOWEVER, it was either a bit too wide OR for other reasons still rubbed my sit bone (or pubic ramus) the wrong way. I had also purchased a Fizik Aliante, but that too brought on problems on the sit bone --due to its width being wide like the Regal.

Long story gets longer... I was undergoing a second phase of physical therapy with a crack PT (Kevin Kay) at Star Physical Therapy. I switched to this PT on the advice of my Ortho who was a specialist in Hip Impingement. Kevin was his go-to PT guy. Anyhow, Kevin got me on a program of strengthening the hips and working out scar tissue. I took a month off the bike to help isolate the problem. I got better and stronger. But when I got back on the bike, I did a one hour ride and the following day my hamstring (at the hip insertion) was hurting. Shit! All the PT and still pain after a 1hr spinning ride.

A few rides more and I started thinking more about what was happening... I turned my attention to the saddle. The soreness I was having was on a contact point with the Toupé saddle. I thought perhaps it was simply scar tissue aggravation and NOT hamstring tendon inflammation/bursitis as diagnosed by my Ortho. I did an experiment switching back to my old Arione --a more narrow saddle. When I did this, I also rode differently, I got out of the saddle every for 2 minutes out of every 10 minutes on the ride. Whereas normally, I just plant my ass on the saddle and rarely stand-up. I had tried the latter with the Toupé as well, but still got soreness the day after. With the Arione, however, I got no soreness. I continued the experiment with Kevin's blesssing and increased the intensity of my rides --NO day after pain!

Although I still have hip/hamstring issues due to all the wear and tear through these many years, riding a narrow saddle and regularly getting "out-of-it" during rides has completely eradicated my bike-oriented hamstring pain. Likewise, the regular standing has eliminated the numbness problem I used to experience with the Arione.

I am so happy with this conclusion because 1) the Arione CX is my favorite saddle in terms of esthetics, and 2) no other saddle I've tried lets my legs move so freely and so fast and unencumbered.

So, my lesson was that it's not just about the saddle selection but how you ride ass well.

Here's to your tuberosities,

Norm

p.s. this post endorsed by Fiz:k

Jules

Jun 13, 2013 at 03:27 PM

@Normanzo I agree. As I get older I find the urge to just sit & grind away grows but the consequences are never good. With no real evidence (other than my experience) I find that being dynamic on & off the bike is a key goal to aim for.

We can't all climb like Ryan "out of all saddles, all of the time" Johnston but we can try

normanzo

Jun 13, 2013 at 05:15 PM

Jules --yep... and burned in my visual cortex is Ryan's ass bounding away up climbs... like an animated GIF repeating in the imaginary heads-up display on my Rudy lenses.

alyoshas

Jun 13, 2013 at 11:55 PM

Selle Italia 4 lyfe! haven't tried much else but never saw a reason to...it's just too euro.

Dan Reiners

Jun 23, 2013 at 01:50 AM

remember the Selle Italia Turbo? Now that is a great saddle. Heavy but good old Italian goodness.

David Yang

Jul 01, 2013 at 02:58 PM

So any recommended fitters in the area?

Bruce van-Schalkwyk

Jul 01, 2013 at 03:04 PM

Jonathan Blyer at Acme. Facebook. He's a super nice guy, an ironman athlete, and has fit a lot of guys racing in the area. I highly recommend him. You'll have to choose between being fit on the bike you have now, or that Specialized Venge you've been eyeing. . .

Jules

Jul 01, 2013 at 03:21 PM

Forget the Venge ... there is a new Sheriff in town

http://www.giant-bicycles.com/_upload/showcases//2013/MY14_Propel_Test_Results.pdf

David Yang

Jul 01, 2013 at 03:37 PM

It's clear I must put off buying a car and buy the Propel Di2 instead...

Thanks, Bruce, not sure if I want to plunk down the cash just yet, but thinking end of 2013 road season so I can start fresh next year (maybe with a new frame). $350 = rebuild wheels w/better rims/spokes for now...

Mark Clifford

Jul 01, 2013 at 03:48 PM

al @ ride is pretty good. i had my tarmac fitted with him last year and have been happy. i think hubs went to see him, too.

Brendan Rigby

Jul 01, 2013 at 03:54 PM

Bruce van-Schalkwyk said:

Jonathan Blyer at Acme. Facebook.

i did the acme fit with blyer. totally moved me around, made me a lot lower, moved handlebars upward. at first i felt fredly then i realized i was much more in control of the bike than before. knee pain nowhere near as bad. but i also use a foam roller religiously now. correlation not causation?

for those who like data, he uses a combination of the retul and guru systems, so he's actually measuring the angles of various joints in real time. probably unnecessary, but if it helps you feel like you're getting what you paid for, it's something to know.

note: he identified that i have a leg length discrepancy. he did not correct it with shims because he didn't want to do shims unless i had confirmation from a doctor/chiropractor that my functional leg length discrepancy was an actual leg length discrepancy. apparently only the latter gets shims, and can only be confirmed by a dr. was a little annoyed that for $350 i was told to go make a dr.'s appointment to confirm what i thought would be a major part of the fit. and when i do have pain, it tends to be in that longer leg...go figure?

Joaquin

Jul 01, 2013 at 04:11 PM

I also did the ACME fit with Blyer. The on the fly adjustability of his Guru machine in combination with the data was great. Felt much more confident about the fit after having run through various permutations on the maching. Have been very happy with the results thus far. But be prepared to sacrifice an afternoon - Blyer goes pretty deep.

mperlberg

Jul 04, 2013 at 02:27 AM

Blyer ftw.

David Gardiner

Jul 06, 2013 at 10:54 AM

I totally agree, Jonathan is a great guy and the best bike fitter in the east coast. He got me super dupper aero, but comfy on my new tt rig.

Brendan Rigby

Jul 06, 2013 at 01:50 PM

Just to be clear: I am happy with the results of my fit and recommend Blyer. In terms of ensuring you're not in pain when you're on the bike, it's the best way to spend $350. Especially if you have not had a bike fit on your current rig.

Scott Reynolds

Aug 13, 2013 at 04:56 PM

Another one for Blyer; besides being one of the only people in the area using Retul motion capture but the only one with the Guru system in the NYC area to my knowledge. My key takeaways from the whole thing was is most people ride with their seat way too high (which causes perineal issues) and bars too low in trying to imitate the look of a pro cyclist. He lowered my seat by about 10cm; oddly enough the rule where you put your heel in the peddle at the point to greatest length (think 7-8 rather than straight at 6) is pretty close as well as the old rule your front hub should be blocked by the bars. Overall the bike looked less cool, yes, but it was easier to generate power sitting, no seat issues, and the bike felt smaller (i.e. easier to handle)

Jeffrey White

Aug 14, 2013 at 06:27 PM

I've experimented quite a bit, and a low saddle 100 percent definitively does not work for me. I drop my heel below the pedal at the bottom of the pedal stroke, a major no-no. Also, I would get less knee soreness with the corrected saddle height. I've raised my seat around two inches over the past couple of seasons and everything about it is better. In fact, it has eased perineal issues for me, as it has distributed my weight more equally over my pedals and hands.

If Blyer's whole philosophy is to fit bike racers in a way completely contradictory to actual bike racers' bike fits, shouldn't that raise some serious red flags? Does he measure his positions' wind resistance or only their power? Is it likely that all the pros' fitters are doing it wrong and he's doing it right?

All that said, I sincerely hope your new fit works well for you! (And don't drop your heels at the bottom!)

Jules

Aug 14, 2013 at 06:32 PM

(sorry Scott, don't mean to pick on two of your posts in a row..)

I think it's important to qualify the statement above "most people ride with their seat way too high" because by itself it doesn't make any sense.

"Most people...?" Most people in the world...? Most people that Blyer sees...? (that's self selecting for people who have poorly fitting bikes) most old/young flexible/inflexible, etc, most experienced/inexperienced racers...?
I think it would be interesting to hear of the people he sees who think their bike fits just fine already how many are riding too low, high, sideways, etc. Otherwise generalizations like that aren't very helpful as guides to fitting.

Brendan Rigby

Aug 14, 2013 at 07:59 PM

Blyler uses Retul fitting system and a Guru machine to make real-time adjustments. Retul does Sky. If it works for them... http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/08/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-analyzing-bike-fits-of-the-professionals_297968

He adjusts you on the magical Guru fitting machine until the Retul wii-like equipment matches the angles he's aiming for. All he's doing is moving you until you're within the angles that Retul thinks you should be in. Don't question Blyler, question Retul

Jules

Aug 14, 2013 at 08:02 PM

The machine is a tool - a nice one but a tool.