Well put Mike. I think that the "another race is just a week away" is some of the gold in the park races. It is hard to prepare for a Battenkill or Catskills without carrying a lot of extra mental weight to the line, and try as I do I still find it hard to "not care" and still "go like hell" when the whistle blows.

Thanks Mike & Jules --I agree on the approach the Mike relayed about not taking races too seriously. However, that's not my problem --I'm definitely there for fun and adventure and comraderie. Wait a minute, maybe I do think about the races too much and thereby inject too much significance into them merely by visualizing so damn much. And during the race, maybe I am visualizing attacks and chases far too frequently instead of just keeping watch on what IS happening (vs. worrying about about what MIGHT happen).
As an aside, I am also easily flustered by riders showing bad manners and/or squirrely behavior --and since there's loads of that in bike racing, I end up being flustered and irritated about 90% of the time I'm in the pack. Which may be why I'm constantly looking to get the hell out of it --but dammit, I just dropped on the descent! Maybe I should go to back to ballroom dancing where competitiors are almost always courteous and graceful on the course --I mean the dance floor.
Anyhow, I'll start a Race Psychology thread and continue this discussion (perhaps alone) there. Let's return to race strategies... if you guys find any good articles on how hormone spikes can help/hinder performance, and how to control this... please post over in Articles of Interest and shoot me a note.

pinging this up as a reminder. Sign up by the end of Friday!

Doodle poll is here http://www.doodle.com/nfys2fe77yquir83#table

eight people are signed up thusfar. There must be more people interested.

Take the poll. come to the talk.

Doodle poll is here http://www.doodle.com/nfys2fe77yquir83#table

i can't make this cause i have class during all the times, but i encourage everyone, especially the less-experienced of us, to go

you know how people say that aero wheels are an easy way to get faster?

well, this talk is a cheap, easy and short way to place higher in your races

I doodled.

Enough is enough - I need to start placing in some darn races.

f'real

JP, et al,
NOTE: would be cool if we could combine this meeting with a 'bon voyage' drink for Stephane Geist! he leaves for France on Wednesday29th?
-h

Harry,
Nice thought. However, I promised to go by the Doodle Poll.

And the results of the Poll are as follows: Tuesday, March 28th at 7pm gets the nod with 6 yeses.

Looking at those who entered their choices, That leaves out DAvid Stearns, Joe Mueller, Alyosha, Ty, and Eric Mehlenbeck. Unfortunately, there isn't a time at which these guys agreed.

Maybe these guys can put their heads together, find a time or few the following week which works for all of them.

NOW, TO FIND A PLACE.

Doesn't need to be big for seven of us. Figure we should have room for 10. anyone know of a spot? Apartments work. I'd prefer something in downtown manhattan, but can go to Brooklyn if it's relatively convenient to public transit. There's a BBQ restaurant around the corner from me which would probably be pretty quiet on a Tuesday night, but it's a schlep for most everyone.

Let me know where it takes place. I am staying at a friend's apartment in Brooklyn (Wyckoff street near Smith) till Wednesday morning, so I might come on Tuesday. (I am free tomorrow but not Monday night).

Thanks for the update JP - Tuesday nights are tough, but I'll still try to make it.

Where is the meeting place?

Unless someone has a better recommendation, we'll meet at Eric Ragot's basement.

303 Sixth AVenue, #1, Brooklyn, NY

7pm Tuesday

See you there.

see you @ragot house of pain!;>
ps. 20min @a time....stephane please DO drop by.

Posted By: mugwumpUnless someone has a better recommendation, we'll meet at Eric Ragot's basement.

303 Sixth AVenue, #1, Brooklyn, NY

7pm Tuesday

See you there.

I'll try my best to make it there as well tomorrow. Sounds like it will be worth it.

If you guys need a space to meet in the city, my office in Chelsea (29th & 6th ave) is open to you guys if you'd like. Just let me know.

Khan!

It's easier for me, but we've got: Jules, Jeff Condon, Josh Caesar, Patrick, Harry, and Tito to consider as well.

I work in TriBeCa so i can go to either.

I can do either - driving from LI

I can do either as well.

i think if Ragot's is available we should meet there, not my final call, but there is also the prospect park 'task force' presentation of lanes&rules changes tonight 28feb as well starting at 6pm at the 'Picnic House' and Kissena's should represent (at least at start if meeting)! see 'Task Force' thread&


"For Brooklynites like you, Prospect Park is like the borough's backyard; it's a great place to bike, jog, walk your dog and set your kids free -- except for one factor. Cars are allowed to speed through the park's 3.35 mile loop drive! With speeding cars in the mix, Brooklyn's backyard is downright chaotic. But now, you have the opportunity to reclaim Prospect Park for people!

WHAT: Prospect Park Drive, Redesigned!
WHEN: Tuesday, February 28th at 6 pm
WHERE: Prospect Park Picnic House, Brooklyn

On February 28th, the Prospect Park Road Sharing Task Force will present their recommendations to park users. At the meeting, T.A. will stand up for a Prospect Park that prioritizes safe bicycling and walking (and jogging!). We need all Brooklynites who love the loop drive to join us and speak up for a safer Prospect Park."

-h

midtown is easier for me than bk, but either should be fine

Harry, if you're going to both meetings and can bring folks from the first to the second, we should do it in Brooklyn.

Brooklyn it is.

JP

Being able to make both of these meetings is great! My only reservation about coming to the tactics meeting was due to it falling on the same night as the park meeting.

Eric

jp et al,
i will make both meetings and round-up any kissena's @Picnic House over to Ragot's place by 7:00-7;7;15p.

Ragot' basement:
303 Sixth AVenue, #1, Brooklyn, NY
7pm - tonight!

hope to see Stephane for post Tactics Beers in Par Slope/&or will Eric be providing beverages!
-h

Thanks JP and Eric. The talk was informative and helpful. See you this weekend.

shoot - I blew it. Totally missed this. Sorry, JP et al - I'm a slacker.

sorry to have missed this. if anyone has a hankering to post the highlights would love to read it!

Hey All,

figured this is a good thread to talk tactics:

Posted By: Jeffrey WhiteI'm in for this.

To be honest, my winning strategy would be to try to follow Mike's wheel, but that's not much of a team tactic, and I intend to use this as a training race to find some form later this month. SO, consider me a domestique.

I was talking with Vlad about this after the Sunday spring series race. Vald committed himself to helping me get some points, so post race we were debriefing about what went well and what could be improved.

I think when we have small numbers, and you aren't necessarily in it for the win yourself, one of the best things you can do is to cover breakaway moves. I know the traditional role of "domestique" involves chasing down breaks, keeping your leader out of the wind, etc. but with small numbers on a long hard race that just isn't practical. Keeping a teammate out of the wind and in position is actually a pretty difficult skill to build, Eric has done a killer job with it, but go take a look at the power numbers he puts out when helping get me into the right position. Not easy!

I think the best bet, if your protected riders are breakaway specialists and not sprinters, is to go ahead and get into moves. Work in the moves, but not crazy hard. If the move gets established, your protected rider can get a free ride across with bridging riders and then you will have numbers. Or, your leader, if strong enough, can bridge solo.

I think in a race like Turkey Hill, we go ahead and unleash Condon and Whitey. Ride hard, ride aggressive. Get into breakaway moves like you're really trying to get into a breakaway move. Let William and I keep ourselves sheltered.

If things are all together at the end, we can make a sprint plan. I think I can do well in this type of sprint because most legs will be fried and I can usually muster something even after 60 hard miles. We should communicate though, because it is possible William, Whitey, or Condon might be better bets depending on how the race shakes out.

Earlier joking aside, I actually don't think it's a bad idea for our wrecking crew to try and place in this race in the 3/4s. There are important lessons to learn from racing and being at the front and that won't necessarily happen if you are racing for a top 20, instead of a top 5.

Considering I've gotten my ass kicked many times and know the Turkey Hill course very well allow me to share. First things first...if you follow the typical course directions to get to the race, you will go from highway driving to back country roads/farm country and at the course in a snap. So if you need to make a quickie mart/ATM pit stop, plan accordingly, because you won't really pass any one the way once you get off the highway. Or maybe that's just the way Sarah and I drive there.

I feel like I'm always the guy reminding people to be a little more conservative , and let the course do some of the work for you, and this race falls into that category too. The course is not that selective as Battenkill, but is hard enough that if you are just riding at the front, the field will diminish significantly by the second half of the race.

The opening stretch up Gamber road climbs gently and steadily. It's one of these stretches where you'll be climbing/flying in the big ring going 25 mph. You are going to feel fast here early in the race, but so is everyone else, so consider that dynamic when deciding where you start to put the screws to your competitors.

Then there's a right and pretty quick left. The approach to the big climb is fast and downhill. Don't waste your strength by being out of position as you hit the wall. I have no doubt you guys will survive the wall climb for all of the race, but MANY will NOT. Chains will drop, riders will stall, racers will get rear-ended and shouts of frustration will be heard as you guys have to stop because they are on the wrong wheels. Give yourself a clean shot at wall.

(Think about if you flew downhill through Piermont, and had to make a fast turn onto Ash and that Ash just stayed as steep as it is on the first ramp all the way up to 9W--instead of flattening out a bit here and there as it does).

Like all pain-in-the-ass climbs, this one doesn't really stop after the wall, the right turn leads to more false flat, midwest-style rolling roads. If you've got a gap after the wall, you can make everyone's life miserable by keeping the gas on. Because you'll be hitting 500-600 watts to get up the climb, but if you can keep cranking 350 watts after the climb proper, you are going to do damage. Conversely, if you are in bad position for the wall, then you are going to have to be deep in the 450-watt pain cave to catch back on to the front of the field, before the descent. (and by the last laps of the race, 250 watts is going to feel like 400 watts anyway)

Back onto anchor road you start to go downhill here. This is where the field will have the advantage of momentum and gravitational group mass. However, at the bottom of the course there is a criterium style 90 degree FAST right turn onto a yellow-line ruled road. Full road width going to one lane+descent = more work than necessary and trouble for back markers. Once on this stretch, the pavement changes to smooth stuff as I recall. It's fast and a good section to recover. You are not going to get away here. But you can get ready for the next good section to think about dropping the hammer.

Right turn onto Blue Rock road and you'll find big rollers that roll up for the first half of the road. They eventually tilt down again coming into the final few kilometers for a FAST big-meat sprint for the finish line, but you've got time and room here to crank it up and whittle the field away or try to get away in a small group. A few years back, it's where Joe Papp's UPMC united team of dopers killed the field.

Early on in the race, it will be easier to get away here, because even as the course dynamics shift the advantage to the pack coming through the start finish, it will be so early in the race, that a small group will be able to maintain their gap established on the first 1/2 of the road because of the pack doing the old "it's still early" logic. Then you'll be "even-Steven" pace/effort wise on the uphill fast rollers on Gamber road, faster on the right left leading to the fast/quick descent onto the wall, even-Steven with the front guys from the pack (but faster than most everyone else) up the wall, etc...

Now, despite your best efforts, you may come to the finish of the race with a group of 20+ guys. This is where all your practice organizing and doing leadouts in Prospect Park races will come into play. It's going to be fast and messy and you are going to use your 12 tooth cog and your teammates if you want to place in the money.

Good luck! Wish I was going to be there.

P.S. If it's a sunny day, it might be hot as hell. NO shade on the course. Hydrate/fuel/salt yourselves appropriately.

good report

thanks for this