Tactics Talk - Forum Archive

Jan 26, 2015 at 08:25 PM

Jules said:

BUMP! If you haven't been, this is a fantastic session. Sell your children, steal an old lady's walker, lie to a nun... Do what you need to in order to attend.

Folks,

It's time to schedule another one of these. The "Tactics Talk" is a primer/refresher/advanced course on the chess game of mass-start bike racing. Having the watts is one thing, knowing how to use them is another: this talk/discussion focuses on the latter. Everyone can be smarter about how they race. Here's an opportunity to get in the right frame of mind and start dissecting the chaos.

The place we'll have this is Redbeard. The time will be 7pm.

Three dates in mind. The first is Tuesday 2/17, which I like because it comes before the last weekend in February, where we typically have a big club ride and stage, weather-permitting, a short training race. The second is Tuesday 2/24. The third is Thursday 2/26.

What's the preference?

2/17

2/24

2/26

Jules said:

BUMP! If you haven't been, this is a fantastic session. Sell your children, steal an old lady's walker, lie to a nun... Do what you need to in order to attend.

David Yang

Jan 28, 2015 at 05:54 PM

JP - any of those days work for me

Dave Sharma

Jan 28, 2015 at 10:36 PM

likewise any of the Tues/Thurs are good on my end, thanks JP!

Marc Bertucco

Jan 29, 2015 at 04:52 AM

Unfortunately, I'll almost never be able to make it to Brooklyn by 7pm on a weekday. But I'm not the target audience here; although I would like to contribute.

ChaimSeewald

Jan 31, 2015 at 11:41 PM

2/17 works for me, thanks JP!

mugwump

Feb 04, 2015 at 01:12 AM

FEBRUARY 17TH IS BOOKED!

7PM

REDBEARD

BE THERE!

David Yang

Feb 09, 2015 at 04:37 PM

Bump! New racers, this talk is especially for you! Racing becomes much more enjoyable when you know what the heck is going on around you and what you can do affect the outcome in your and/or your teammate's favor.

mugwump

Feb 16, 2015 at 09:17 PM

Bump!

Tomorrow Night! 2/17/15

7pm

Redbeard

Be there.

David Yang

Feb 17, 2015 at 09:12 PM

Late afternoon bump. Can't wait to get my head back into racing!

David Yang

Feb 18, 2015 at 02:48 PM

Small and attentive group of Chaim, Dave S, and myself at Red Beard. Thanks as always to JP for going over the foundations of racing tactics.

Cat 4 and 5 racers that missed the talk - don't be shy to post questions!

Dave Sharma

Feb 18, 2015 at 03:38 PM

sad to have missed this last year, and glad to get JP's insight this year-- been a tough, frozen winter and this definitely got me excited for the coming season. Thanks jP!

Marc Bertucco

Feb 18, 2015 at 04:00 PM

Small and attentive group of Chaim, Dave S, and myself at Red Beard. Thanks as always to JP for going over the foundations of racing tactics.

Cat 4 and 5 racers that missed the talk - don't be shy to post questions!

Also, cat 3s. You are allowed ask questions. I encourage it in fact. Often times mentor led events end up skew towards newer racers, but that is only because we tend to focus the given event for the audience who is there. But, there is plenty of good information and experience to share with intermediate and advanced level racers. #continuingeducationforall

PatrickRodriguez

Feb 20, 2015 at 02:32 AM

how can I make a successful break away from the peloton? I have try so many times last season... I want be better at this ..

Marc Bertucco

Feb 20, 2015 at 05:33 AM

Patrick, this is a great question to talk about face-to-face, like on the next group ride. Largely because the answer, well, it's complicated. There are like a million factors, some you can control, more that you cannot. And I could write a dissertation on the subject, be 100% correct about every point I make, have you execute each point to perfection in a race and still not have it work out.

Sigh. Such is bike racing.

I'd love to talk you through it, starting with you recalling a time when you tried to breakaway and it didn't work. This way we can "reverse engineer" what happened and try to learn from that experience.

That said a lot of what you need to focus on is TIMING. Timing is important on multiple levels. The timing of your attack, when you choose to attempt your breakaway as it relates to the timing of the overall race, and the timing of what is currently happening in the field, what is likely to happen in the near future.

Also, you have to consider COMPOSITION. Composition of the field, composition of the breakaway. Another word often used is COMBINATIONS. Are you a lone gun? Are you with other riders from other teams?

Another thing is MOTIVATION. What is your motivation? What is the motivation of the field? How does that "potential energy" translate into "kinetic energy" or forward motion.

Related, there are the basic mechanics of the breakaway. From how you are initiating the breakaway, how you are getting away (gear selection, cadence, timing, positioning), to how you are riding the breakaway (literally and figuratively). I've been in plenty of races where guys swore up and down that they were either sprinting or attempting to "break away" and from my point of view, usually sitting on their slowly accelerating wheels, they were actually doing nothing more than picking up the pace at the front of the peloton and dragging everyone else for a ride.

And then there is the "mixed martial art problem." As a racer, when you come at from one perspective, one style, say you are straight up Shaolin Kung Fu, but that other team is Brazillian Jujitsu...well, they are just going to react to what you do in a totally different and foreign way. This is not to say that you can't compete with them, but don't ever underestimate your competition to execute the most bizarre and counterproductive tactics during a race that will screw you and themselves over in a most glorious way.

That said, there are a handful of basic truths, that if you stick with, and continue to attempt, then eventually the stars will align and you will feast gloriously in the wake of a successful breakaway.

So you can see, it's a long answer already, and I've just started to define some terms...

Weather looks shitty this weekend, but if I'm out there riding one or both days, I'd be happy to talk more about this and other topics as needed.

mugwump

Feb 20, 2015 at 03:14 PM

how can I make a successful break away from the peloton? I have try so many times last season... I want be better at this ..

Shoulda come. But since you missed it, you need to show up at the early season day at the velodrome session.

Go on over to this thread.

http://kissenacycling.vanillaforums.com/discussion/110/the-kissena-early-season-day-at-the-velodrome-track-on-road-bikes#latest

PatrickRodriguez

Feb 20, 2015 at 04:39 PM

Hey thank you marc for share your knowledge in this topic with me, we will talk face to face about this ...

PatrickRodriguez

Feb 20, 2015 at 04:52 PM

yeah Mugwump I will go to next meeting in the kissena velodrome... I know that with the help of you guys I will get better in this type of racing technique thanks .... @mugwump @Marc Bertucco @David Yang

JohnMalcolmson

Feb 21, 2015 at 05:07 AM

@PatrickRodriguez Re breakaways in park races/Floyd, to add to Marc's insights:

Number one thing for a break to succeed? Break friendly course and conditions — high winds with echelon/cross wind sections, rain, hot/cold conditions. A course where the break can get out of sight around a corner. At all our local races, a windless day makes a winning break extremely difficult to pull off.

As Marc says, timing is everything. Breaks usually get away if they're launched at the moment a break's caught or at a point where everyone is at the limit. They're more likely to succeed in the second half of a race when many have burned their matches. It takes 5-10 strong riders who can quickly organize a smooth TTT. Then it comes down to the mix of teams represented and how quickly a determined chase happens.

Often a sprinter who has enough watts to bridge but not drive it, makes it over to a break. Ricky Lowe types. This works to your advantage in one respect, as the team with a winning sprinter is usually focused on killing break attempts.

It wants to consist of big engine riders of somewhat similar size and experience.

A Cat 4 bunch tends to chase the carrot for the carrots sake, so there aren't many wins out of breaks in park races (Floyd 3/4/5 has breaks if windy). 123 park races are more strategic and tend to allow more breaks to happen, but average speeds around 28mph mean that breaks with elite riders are favored (Wind at Floyd tears 123 races apart).

Team tactics that facilitate breaks? Attacking from the gun or making being in the race as hard as possible. Attack/counter attack. Blocking. Perlberg was the master of the slow roll off the front. More?

mugwump

Jan 27, 2016 at 06:55 PM

BUMP!

TUESDAY 2/23/16. 8:15pm
@ Red Beard

Racing deciphered for both new and old.

More details to follow.

David Yang

Jan 27, 2016 at 07:29 PM

HIGHLY recommended for new racers. IMO more important than JP's training talk.

mugwump

Feb 16, 2016 at 02:12 PM

Bump!

A week from tonight.