Kissena Forum Archive

2011 Racing

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doesn't the race start at 6:30?
Tomorrow's race, because of daylight savings and the park not allowing us to race in the dark, starts at 6:45. Other changes? Cat 5s get 3 laps, everyone else including 1/2/3s get 4.
because of daylight savings time it starts later
Remember to adjust your alarm clocks for tomorrow!! Daylight savings time starts tonight...
One hour less to sleep.
Looking forward to meeting and racing with the team.
Ok, so meeting @ reg at 6.30? Everyone should be reg'd with numbers pinned before then.
@ tito: Yes, see you then!
Sorry, gentlemen - I overslept. My "smart"phone seemed to think that even though its clock moved forward I would still want to be woken up at the "old" 5.15am, i.e. 6.15am. Duh.
Ah, well - 2 hours of sleep the night before + Grant's + working late last night means that this was probably the good Lord's way of telling me to get some darn rest already. Bummed to have missed it, though.

How'd we do?!?
Good news we took 2nd again today! I think that puts me in 1st overall in the series for the 3,4's, but I'm waiting on the official email to confirm that.

The race started strong right off the line with Jeff O. taking off as everyone got clipped in to set the tone for the day. Gideon, Rich, Jim, and Val, were taking turn off the front for the most part of the morning to keep the race under control. Right before the Guggenheim about 4 riders broke off from the pack and looked like they were making a strong move. I bridged up to them and we started working together to make some time between the peloton. One rider evaporated pretty quickly, which left myself, the same bh guy that flatted last week, Francisco from Scottos, and a Hudson rider. The four of us kept together till we topped the hill on the rollers we dropped the Hudson rider. Now left with three, we took turns pulling for about 15 seconds until we came to the last little hill before the finish line. We were looking at each other and I wasn't about to let the pack catch us then so I decided to make the first move and laid out my hardest spring I was able to shake the bh guy but Francisco held my wheel, by then I threw one last weak effort and he was able to counter and take the win.
Joe Mueller, second again, from a break of three that went in tthe 3rd lap. Team worked great with Gideon, Jeff, and Rich covering anything that looked dangerous. Joe was once again able to make his move count. Impressive show today. Pleasure racing with you guys. Congrats Joe!
Mission accomplished! Joe made the smart move and then operation shutdown commenced. Gideon and Rich did a lot of work, I annoyed the Foundation guys who were trying to chase by blocking, Rich crashed but seems no worse for the wear. Was trying to lead out Gideon for the clusterfuck cat 4 sprint until we almost got run into the ditch. Someone hit a waterbottle and went down. What else...oh there were a couple of women in the race and I'm pretty sure they beat me.

Cheers,
-j.
Congrats guys for another great race. Tell the club about your great results! 2nd and 3rd again!
AWESOME! Well done, Joe! Great job, all! The 4 squad is looking good!
Another great race for the Kissena 5s!! Congrats to John for a great 2nd place finish and new points leader for the series!!! And, a huge congrats to Jorge on 3rd place in his first race!!! Great work guys, you both rode very smart races and got well-deserved results. Overall the team rode a good race and we always had good representation at the front. My goals for the race were to just stay at the front and chase down anything that looked dangerous. On the second lap an unattached rider attacked up the first roller and I jumped on his wheel. We got a small gap and were joined by a couple other riders, but the wind was pretty brutal and two guys didn’t’ want to do any work so we were quickly caught. On the final lap, there were a couple attacks on Harlem Hill. Not sure who went off first but two groups of two riders each got small gaps on the field. Kissena had a guy in each group so a couple of us soft pedaled the rest of the way up HH and half way up the first roller. From there, I was just trying to block or jump on wheels, but both groups were eventually caught.

Things got a little chaotic when there was a crash on the long downhill before tavern. I must have been sitting 5-6 wheel when I heard it so I don’t really know what happened but I know a some Kissena riders were caught up in it, only minor injuries though. I held my position going into horseshit alley, Jorge was a couple up front and I believe John was right behind. At this point I screwed up and tried to advance positions around the outside up the left. Just as I did this, a group from behind charged hard up the right. John and Jorge were on top of it, got on their wheels and were able to sprint away for 2nd and 3rd!! They were in a group of 7 or so that got about a 20-30m gap so I don’t really know how the sprint unfolded, but I’m sure one of them will give their reports as well. I think I rolled in at 10th in the second group. A successful race overall by taking the points jersey and defending it should be our main objective for the rest of the series. Great work again everyone and congrats to John, Jorge and whole team on a solid performance!!
First double race weekend of the season. Grant's Tomb on Saturday. Central Park on Sunday. JP and I raced both days, fellow Kissena mentor Myles joined us on Sunday.

Saturday's Pro 1/2 race lived up to it's billing, attracting actual professional riders. Including United Healthcare's Scott Zwizanski, and local rider Gavi Epstein (who just this year signed a pro contract with the Chipolte Development team). More than a random pro showing up to our little local race, the fact that the course was re-routed to include a 180 degree turn just past the finish line, plus an always motivated Stan's No Tubes-AXA squad, and the usual local hammerheads, ensured that there would be plenty of pain.

I followed my own "sage" crit racing advice, by charging to the front-ish early on. Carrying speed through the 180 degree turn would be key to racing well against a stacked field. Unfortunately, my good positioning wouldn't last. Swarmed on the entry to the left handed banked sweeper, then blown by the wind on the false flat finishing stretch, I found myself at the back. Commence suffering. JP maintained good position throughout, but with no teammates to help, he could only be so aggressive. He had to pick and choose his moments to fire up the turbos. I was starting to feel like a little off-the-front action was in my future, when I started to notice a wiggle in my rear end (get your mind out of the gutter). Yup, a nice slow, soft flat. How long had I been riding with this badboy? Without a wheel in the pit, I found Keith who immediately gave up his campy 10 speed wheel (thanks Kieth, you rock!), which actually shifted perfectly with my Shimano drivetrain (go figure), and got back into the race. I actually hate stopping for a flat. On the surface, it seems like you get a lap or two rest, but in reality, your rhythm gets thrown into the dumpster and you spend the next 5 laps trying to regain your original position and mojo. Mine never came back. Position or mojo.

JP, racing solidly near the front all day, got a good view of Gavi Epstein launching his sprint for what would be 8th place, but didn't quite have the turbo kick needed to grab his wheel.

Sunday's 1/2/3 race in Central Park would be another barn burner. Down to just 3 riders, Myles and myself rode like maniacs chasing down breaks, ALL DAY LONG. JP was working hard and racing smartly as usual. A break of 4 gets away including 2 GS Mengoni's a Jonathan Adler and some other dude. The break is gone and Myles and I are turning ourselves inside out to bring the gap down. Other than We Stand United, who took some pulls for one of the 3 laps the break was away, and a random dude here and there, it was the Kissena show at the front. Unfortunately, being a cat 1/2/3 does not mean you know how to race. I lost track of all the heroes who, while we were pounding away mega-watts at the front, would put in these blistering "attacks" only to self implode 20 meters later. It would have been more helpful if they tucked into my draft and gave me a little help on the front chasing like actual bike racers of our categories are supposed to know how to do. There was no way that Myles and I were going to be able to bring the group back, but if we could have cut the gap by say 15-25 seconds, then the break might have come back.

In the last lap, my legs gave up the ghost after the west side rollers and I cut around to watch the finish. JP looked strong, 6th wheel coming into the boathouse restaurant section. I'll let him tell you the rest.

Despite riding hard and smart, it's going to be tough to help JP into the leader's jersey with only 3 (or even 4) riders coming out to support us. Jonathan Adler comes to play with 6-8, GS Mengoni with 6-8, We Stand United comes with the entire group of 150 Burrow's brothers. There's only so much two of us can do riding support of one leader, but we'll continue to do our best and hope we can get a few of you cat 2s and 3s out in weeks to come.

Tough weekend. I'm literally falling asleep as I type thi...
Thanks and congrat's guys, the race went really well. Dan, Brian, Andrew worked hard to shut down attacks. There were a bunch of unconvincing attempts by the 6 Asphalt Green riders to get clear—Kissena riders right on the wheel.

Final lap craziness: Start/finish line attack by two orange/black kit riders [CRCA : L.Raphael - Leopard Cycles?] Mitch did a great job of reeling them in on the East Dr. straightaway. The expected copycat attacks (2) on Harlem hill marked well by Jorge and ?—I heard the attackers didn't want to lap out?! Prop's to Jorge for breaking away and recovering to win third in the sprint. Re crash near 65th street (West): I was beside a rather large Asphalt Green rider who erratically swung over on top of my wheel, I had to swerve to avoid front wheel + crank collision, McKay was beside me and had to take evasive. I believe this caused the resulting crash that Adam and David(?) got tangled up in. Bummer yes, but great to see we were all together into the last two km. A second later the Asphalt guy asked me "did I cause that?" Doh! So after that there was confusion and lot's of speed, McKay came to the front, just before HS, and hammered out an excellent lead-out. That gave us a gap and dropped us close to the finishing climb. In the sprint a guy with yellow/green jersey [team?] attacked inside 1/4th of the way up hill and I reacted but couldn't close.

Marc asked me to captain Cat 5. Thinking it'd be cool to get together in PP some time this week—maybe Wednesday night at 7pm—to practice paceline, sprints and chat strategy. We've proven we have a strong team, next weekend I'm thinking we should be dictating the pace: big attack/counterattack in the last lap? Saturday: Central Park 3 laps. Sunday: Prospect Park, 7 laps. Thinking I'll do both. — John
nice works dudes!

leader's jersey . . . very cool!
great job gentlemen. What a fantastic team effort getting Joe into the break two weeks in a row, and controlling the pack to make sure that he was able to stay away.

once is good, twice is great, three times is going to be MUCH harder. We have to figure out a way to keep Joe scoring points. This is going to be harder if he's wearing a jersey. It will make Joe a target. So we need to mobilize as many Cat 3-4s to control this race next week.
These RACES* next week. . .

I plan on finally coughing up my $60 renewal fee and bringing my A game for Saturday morning in Central Park. (I am volunteering at the Manhattan Half marathon on sunday morning so I am a no go for that).

I honestly have NO IDEA how strong I am, or how tuned my pack surfing skills are, but I am down to help anyway I can. Maybe jumping in an early to middle race brake or giving it my all to help chase something down.
Posted By: Dan Reinersgreat job gentlemen. What a fantastic team effort getting Joe into the break two weeks in a row, and controlling the pack to make sure that he was able to stay away.

once is good, twice is great, three times is going to be MUCH harder. We have to figure out a way to keep Joe scoring points. This is going to be harder if he's wearing a jersey. It will make Joe a target. So we need to mobilize as many Cat 3-4s to control this race next week.
Obviously you guys will be able to figure this out on your own, and it will be hard due to AVD's guess your points policy... but getting a nice size break together next weekend without Joe might be the ticket. You have some really strong guys and can maybe find some allies who are not in the overall points hunt from other squads. Let them do the work in the break while Joe and other Kissenas sit back and watch other teams attempt to organize a chase. Either a break full of non-threatening overall riders stays away and gobbles up the points, or other squads wear themselves out and Joe is ready for a late race counter attack or sprint.

Just a thought. Seems like you have the horse-power to make it work. AVD's results are the big variable in the equation. We don't want Kissena guys dragging along someone in the top 5 away from Joe.

Congrats to Joe. Keep it up.

Mike
Marc did a great job above, so I'll add only a few things.

Saturday: Grant's Tomb

The oval course is, in my opinion, harder than the crit course. Fewer obvious places to break away and you really have to kill, kill, kill it to go. At the same time, the wind makes it hard to just sit in. I was pretty sure guys would get blown out the back coming out of the first turn and then having to fight in the wind to the finish line.

With only two guys, we were going to have to be super-selective in our moves, especially when AXA could pretty much initiate when they wanted with whomever. Adler had choices in following, as did several teams. And having a Division Two pro certainly added to the fun. Scott Zwizanski is one of the best time trialists in the country and certainly should have been able to do as he pleased.

When someone has overwhelming strength, the smart move seems to be to sit back, wait for the move to develop, give it a gap that only you can cross, and then attack the field at the hardest point in the course. Zwizanski did exactly this.

I didn't make the initial move, but tried to go across. Attacking shortly before the north-end turn, I railed the turn and got into a group of three or four that closed to within a few seconds of the leaders. Then, the guys in front quit, as if the field was right behind us. And they were. I decided the field would finish the job. only they sat up and allowed Adler to gum up the works. My mistake for not keeping the gas on. Might not have made it across, but at least would have felt like I gave it my all.

I was noticing we were coming up to guys who were then jumping back in the race They were getting back in around the place I'd figure the spare wheels were at though too many were jumping in to believe that four or five guys flatted at the same time. I later learned from Marc that huge gobs of guys were getting blown out and then getting lapped without getting pulled. If the officials didn't pull them, it's hard for me to complain. All the same, as a chaser, I would have preferred not to have them around. I think I would have had more opportunities to escape, and I'm sure several of them mixed in the sprint.

Still, gotta play the card dealt. THere was a serious counter-attack with five to go or so. I missed the initial move but jumped by the finish line. Went through turn one with Maurice of Van Dessel, then got around him, drilled it through the north turn, and got on the back of the group after the turn (went through much faster to catch). Took a few turns, but this group wasn't interested in going.

I ended up getting ready to sprint. Was right next to Gavi Epstein when he started his sprint, but didn't have it. Gavi took the group, so my position wasn't terrible.
Sunday's CP:

Joe asked how we were going to play this. With three guys, we decided that Marc and Myles would cover the front like glue, sticking to the leaders and getting on the low-probability moves. This would save me for the higher-probability moves. They'd also be most active at the start, when everyone is fresh and when a long-shot breakaway can establish itself. This sort of effort shortens the race for me, as it allows me not so much as to rest, but not to burn so many matches. And if they're keeping the pace high, they're keeping the weak or the unprepared at the back, which means htey're out of contention when a move goes.

Unfortunately, other teams had other plans. We rolled out as we expected, but three miles in, some favorites were attacking. Time for me to get on them. When a move I was in failed, Marc or Myles would be there to cover. I think I went with three moves by East 70th on the first lap. I thought things had slowed up a bit. Then a Mengoni and two Adlers were a few seconds off the front at the start of lap two. A second Mengoni got up there. We weren't represented, so M&M went to the front to keep the gap close enough so I could get in a counter-attack.

It came on 110berg. Didn't want to be the first person to throw down, so when two people went by, it was time to go. I was going over the hill pretty well I think, but then Gavi Epstein blew by. I don't think anyone went with him. I went over the top hard and started trying to close it on the next hill. I had Brian Breach (mengoni) and an Adler sitting on. I was closing a bit on the break, but had no help. And then when I got help, the two other guys weren't ready to commit. It mean it was me and two not totally committed guys with two looking for a free ride and we couldn't get close enough. Not a surprise.

Back to the chase. M&M were the only two guys committed to chasing. Obviously, this was frustrating. What I have to keep in mind is this would have helped us had I been up there. Behind us, United had at least four guys, Jordan Coaching had at least four guys, Foundation had at least four, Die Hard had three, other teams had several, and most were saving themselves for the sprint. Jordan had three sprinters out of four riders. Foundation had one guy worth protecting and the others were sitting back and letting him ride w/o support. Luckily, a few guys still wanted to race and I got in some more digs,but with Mengoni and Adler gumming things up and other guys not committed to the escape, we weren't succeeding. (BTW, the 200-meter heroes Marc referred to actually help the break because they ruin the rhythm of the chase and they discourage others from chasing)

Impressively, the gap was only 25 seconds with four away going into the bell (if it weren't for M&M, it probably woudl have been 45 seconds or more). Figured United would mount a chase and others would help. I was wrong. We slowed down on the last lap, lest we actually catch the guys. Adler nicely wound up the field and I did get into good position going into the final bend, only to have a wall of a guy from Villanova slow down as I was getting out of the saddle to sprint. I had to slow, shift, re-start, I didn't finish terribly, but not a good sprint by any means.

After the race I decided I need to talk more with other teams during the race and try to convince them to chase. Also, when Adler and Mengoni are sitting on me, asking them if they really think with two riders each, they're going to beat a pro. Today they didn't. If each had three in the break, who knows?

Great rides by Marc and Myles. We missed the winning move, but we were in the hunt until the end.
Hey all...first, congrats to John on another great placing and to Jorge for grabbing third in his first race! Glad to see some teammates still finishing in the money.

After getting dropped last week, my goal this week was to stay with the group and see if I had any legs left to help at the end. On the final lap, I had definitely accomplished that goal...positioned about 8-10 wheels behind where Andrew was, and actually feeling really strong. Since I had something left in the tank, I started moving up fairly quickly on the right to see if I could get in the mix on the lead out.

As John said, right around 65th Street, there was a crash, I think involving 6-7 bikes, including myself and Adam from Kissena. I was being super-aware of what was going on around me (more on that below) but couldn't quite see how it started. I heard metal on metal and next thing I know there's 2 bikes airborne in front of me. There was absolutely nothing I could do to avoid them - and down I went. I think one guy was hurt pretty bad - I found out later he busted a collarbone. The other guy seemed dazed, but OK. I helped get their gear off the course, and get them to the side so they wouldn't be in the way of the other fields. I emerged relatively unscathed apart from a few cuts on my leg, a ripped glove and a slightly aching knee and shoulder this morning. Most importantly - the Bianchi was OK (priorities, people!) Adam and I rode in together and finished the race.

I suppose I wasn't that surprised this happened, because compared to March 6 there was a lot erratic riding throughout the race yesterday (racers not holding their lines, lots of bikes in the runners lane). It was probably inevitable -- and I'm surprised it didn't happen earlier, or more than once. Just more motivation to get even stronger and stay closer to the front!

I'll definitely try to be out there Wednesday night for some practice, and am signed up to race again Saturday in CP. On Sunday I'm heading up to pre-ride the Battenkill course.
Cheers,
David
As John mentioned yesterday after the race, spots are filling up for the CP race on Sat., and starting to fill up for PP on Sunday. Right now only 3 Kissena riders are signed up for Sat. so hopefully others will be able to make it out. I'm racing both CP and PP this weekend, but unfortunately won't be able to make it to PP on Wednesday night. As far as tactics, I guess we'll have to wait and see how many riders we get and then plan the best approach to keep the leader jersey...

AA
Nice teamwork, gents & congrats to Joe for staying away two weeks in a row! We took turns sending several early moves & counters while Joe stayed well hidden. Once Joe made his move and was away we all took turns setting tempo and chasing down anything threatening.

With about 1/4 lap to go, another rider & I made contact causing my wheel to clip a safety cone and slide out. Just a little bit stiff today and some road rash. Nothing serious & no one else went down at the time.
Holla if you're going to be racing in either or both of these races. I am signed up for both days.

From Michael, and I think this is a good idea:
Obviously you guys will be able to figure this out on your own, and it will be hard due to AVD's guess your points policy... but getting a nice size break together next weekend without Joe might be the ticket. You have some really strong guys and can maybe find some allies who are not in the overall points hunt from other squads. Let them do the work in the break while Joe and other Kissenas sit back and watch other teams attempt to organize a chase. Either a break full of non-threatening overall riders stays away and gobbles up the points, or other squads wear themselves out and Joe is ready for a late race counter attack or sprint.

Just a thought. Seems like you have the horse-power to make it work. AVD's results are the big variable in the equation. We don't want Kissena guys dragging along someone in the top 5 away from Joe.

Mike
We've got two races this weekend, so it may make sense to try to get a solid breakaway with other riders to gobble up points in the CP race. The Prospect race, where it is harder to keep a break away, we should look towards a sprint finish with a big Kissena showing at the very late stages towing Joe to the line starting later than we normally do, and focus on short really hard pulls that string out the field.
Sorry guys, the left knee is still sore after wiping out on sunday. it's got full range of motion but hammering doesn't feel good, so i'm going to sit out this weekend and do some easy spinning while visiting a friend in PA. Best of luck poaching their legs off!
Rich,

We're gonna miss your engine. recover quickly, hopefully you'll be back in a week.
Saturday!
Cap'n Dan,
I'm there Saturday and Sunday.
I'm gonna go do Johnny Cake on Saturday with Patrick, but will hopefully have enough left for Sunday. I'll go ahead and sign up. Obviously, I'm more of a poor man's breakaway guy than lead out, but I'm down for whatever. Maybe if breakaway to gobble up points doesn't work on Saturday, I can be down for trying that on Sunday.

Like Michael said, this is going to get much harder to defend Joe's lead with so many races left in the series. Plus, even without a leader's jersey, people are going to know what Joe looks like and start marking him (he needs a stealth bike with Sram Red BLACK). Depending upon the types of riders challenging him and what the points are, would it wise to let the leader spot slip away for a bit? I know this isn't time and it's not a tour, so defense tactics are much different. I suppose just trying to get Joe to rack up points is the best way. How are the points broken down every race? 40 for winner, 30 for second, 25, 20, etc? I looked at the flyer and couldn't tell.

I bet Gideon and I could hammer away for quite a while. He's in good shape. Me.....eh. But as long as we make note of the other points leaders and make sure they're not in it, it might work. Does anyone know the totals from the first two weeks?

Get better Rich! Do the Ricco thing and try homemade neuromuscular electrical stimulation by attaching your knee to a series of wires and a paper clip, then jam it in the wall socket. Works. And leeches.