Fo sho, though it should go without saying racers should stay alert and near front. It's where all the fun stuff is happening in a race!

BenFinoRadin said:

Not having practiced the leadout with Seb & John I think #3 sounds like the most fun – I can certainly try to be the rabbit for Sebastian. >:-)

When should I aim to get into position on the front for that? 2nd to last lap?

Final lap positioning is the hard part.  You should NOT be on the front just before the fakeout sprint and ideally 2-4 wheels behind by the time you hit the final 180 turn.  You're treating this like you're sprinting for the win except you're doing it 100-200m earlier than you should.

Take your best sprint effort, and I mean you have to "jump" hard, gut wrenchingly so*, and then laying out alllll your watts and effort following that.  Time it.  Is it 10 seconds? 15 seconds? 20 seconds???  Now work backwards from the temple where you plan to be caught by the nervous sprinters chasing you.  If you can time it right, they'll have spent 5-10 seconds trying to catch you with their noses in the wind at which point your teammate pounces and sprints for the finish.

*If you do not jump hard enough and surprisingly enough to immediately create a gap, you'll be creating a single file leadout train for everyone behind you.  This isn't necessarily bad since your teammate can still surf their wheels, but they haven't worked for it in the wind so will have fresher sprinting legs that your teammate will have to overcome.

Option 3 sounds pretty fun to me!

I'm happy to be the rabbit as I'm pretty sure I'd be able to put a bit of a gap in, but probably won't have the legs to win a sprint after having raced in the 5s immediately before. 

Any thoughts as to how we should play the 5 race that morning? I think I could have a decent result based on how last weekend went, especially if it is a faster race. We'll also have a larger presence in that race - counted 6 registered including myself.

I wont be racing this weekend, but this is what I got from this thread:

Sebastian wins Grant's. 

okthatisallthankyoubye

Well, you can't both be the rabbit . Be sure to agree on who is the rabbit and who is the sprinter before the race, and I would plan the jump to be as soon as feasible after exiting the U-turn. The most important thing is to have a plan and don't be the guy who doesn't stick to it when the other one thinks it's still on.

Just a thought, but a rabbit that gets in front and takes one solid cross-course dive at the right moment might help put chasers in the wind and open up a path for the sprinter...

What are our plans for Cat 4 and 3/4?
 
Cat 4
@SeanMiles
@niallsmart
@Bruce van-Schalkwyk
@MaxThorn
@Jeffrey White
@David Yang

Cat 3/4
@SeanMiles
@Brendan Rigby
@MaxThorn

Cat - 4, podium

Cat - 3/4, ride at the front as long as possible, help Brendan if I can

Two female Kissenas racing in the 4/5 CAT

yo @SebastianVidal Whitey forgot about our field in the 5s. Here's our lineup:

Yours truly
@Will Kalbacker
@JohnOlsson
@GregStreiff
@SebastianVidal
@GiacomoVischi

I've hardly ridden with any of y'all this season except for Sebastian, who as Jeff says has a flipping strong sprint. I vote for the rabbit game – I'm not sure who among us has the fitness and sprint to do so? I'm happy to take it on, but I'm really not sure what to expect as despite feeling good about my training I'm still pretty inexperienced in the race. Anyone been eating their wheaties and want to take this on, or would people rather do a lead-out (which we haven't practiced)?

This all assumes the snow gods don't shit all over our beautiful plans

I'm willing to modify my original strategy of soloing off the front from the gun to victory in order to help someone 

the 3/4....

break seems likely.  will have to cover but conserve energy.  unless it's going to stick, then bridge.  this kind of thing is hard to tell in advance. but if you're not towards the front you won't be able to get to it when it goes.  my goal is to sit within reach of the front but not on it.

sean, in the 3/4, maybe let other people ride at the front, just keep it ready to go about 3 spots back.  the front is, in relatively uncoordinated recreational races and IMO, just the best place to waste energy.  i think i spent too much time there last week and the legs were feeling shitty way too fast, couldn't answer late-race moves.  breaking away doesn't require sitting on the front.  my feelings are that sitting on the front helps others rest while doing little for preserving your ability to answer attacks

ultimately in the last two laps if the whole race is together it'd be nice to have some shelter trying to move up. doesn't have to be leadout per se, just some aggressive cover if needed to move up

BenFinoRadin said:

yo @SebastianVidal Whitey forgot about our field in the 5s. Here's our lineup:

Yours truly
@Will Kalbacker
@JohnOlsson
@GregStreiff
@SebastianVidal
@GiacomoVischi

I'll let you all decide what role I can fill. I will say my endurance is lacking. I would hate to be a lead out guy and run out of gas before the sprinter is in a good position. Would also hate to be the sprinter and run out of gas before crossing the finish line. 

Can we split into two groups or does that not make good strategy? 

@Brendan Rigby

Agreed. By at the front i mean between 3rd and 15th place, last year it was a fast race and I barely finished with the main group

I would be happy already not freezing after 10 minutes. For Cat 5 I say let's try to occupy the first positions and get stuck there since the beginning, which means line up also in front all together. Then I am willing to work for Sebastion, Gregg, whomever feels strong in the sprint. Lead out. @Will Kalbacker also is good in leading out

This all sounds good to me. I'll probably want to stay as close to the front as possible to save energy in the corners. I'll try sprinting in the 5 and doing whatever I have enough energy for in 4/5. Hoping there isn't too much snow tomorrow!

If I remember,  most people take the big turn too wide. Also I think if you stay on the inside you'll avoid the wind which I think will be blowing from NJ? Eastward? We'll see 

Cat 5 roll call
Greg
Giacomo
Will
John
Ben
Sebastian

Other players
Fire Cycling Team (7 riders)
Mike Smedes (unattached [we should recruit him], has taken 2nd at Grant's, 2nd at Battenkill)

Strategies
1. Lead out Greg. Guy #1 pilots the leadout so they can enter the U-turn first. Guy #2 powers through the U-turn and sprints out of it. Guy #3 sprints Greg to the temple. Greg sprints from the temple. This plan can work without Guy #1, but it's harder.

2. Greg + rabbit save themselves completely for the sprint, the rest alternate trying to get away in breaks in the second half of the race to try to win (and in the process tire out strong riders who are willing to burn matches).

3 and 4. The same except Sebastian.

What say y'all ?

@UlrikeGlaser we're going to be racing together in the women's cat 5

Jeffrey White said:

Strategies
1. Lead out Greg. Guy #1 pilots the leadout so they can enter the U-turn first. Guy #2 powers through the U-turn and sprints out of it. Guy #3 sprints Greg to the temple. Greg sprints from the temple. This plan can work without Guy #1, but it's harder.

I like the idea of us all working together at the finish. conceptually feels more organized. happy to sprint if others dig it. I'm only doing one race tomorrow.

In early March, working together is more important than winning. Worst case scenario is going into the race without a plan.

In Cat 5 this race favors a sprinter. And in Cat 5 this race yet more favors some decent teamwork. I think this plays in our favor.

Cat 5 Crew (4/5 too)

To add to Jeff's sage advice:
Warm-up. Don't be that rider who didn't warm up properly and gets spat out the back in the first 5 minutes.
The best way to warm up is hot laps and practice your sprint train with teammates (talk through it, tweak the timing). You want to do three or four full gas practice lead-out efforts. If you bring a trainer do the Sky protocol. With the 3-4" snow, frankly, it's possible they'll cancel the race or switch to short course. Alternate side parking is suspended which will make clearing the course of cars a total nightmare (the city has to come and tow). Start time is invariably delayed, which makes not freezing but keeping warmed up and not missing the start a juggling act. Lastly, make sure you test all your corners at race speed so you're comfortable and know the lines.

Conditions
20F with a 15mph WNW side wind coming from Jersey. The low temps on an exposed course are going to be hard work, but only for 30 mins! Jules got hypothermia in similar conditions a few years back, be careful. If people are bringing cars it'll be a huge help. That year we were so cold we camped at a deli to warm up from ride up—neck gator double basel layers, double layer gloves, double shorts, chemical toe warmers, ski jacket, sweat pants, a replacement base layer for post race. Do not wear a wind jacket in the race.

The wind direction is good news for a lead-out, forget the rabbit. The lead-out goes full gas tight through the U and hugs the left gutter (leaving just enough space for the sprinter to get an echelon draft—practice this). With the wind coming directly from the right, gutter riding ensures everyone eats wind going into the 200m, they'll also have to eat wind to come around you. 

During Race
Generally, there is no point trying to break away in the Cat 5s for the first 15/30 mins, Cat 5s chase anything that moves until they can't. Everything.

The only factor that may change that, is the wind and road conditions (or maybe someone with Cat 1 abilities). Today's snow means the course could go from slightly technical to crash prone, chaotic, Belgian style crit. 30 minutes will be over in a blink so make a mental note to check the lap board each lap. If it's slick, the field will be shredded in the first few laps. Those that started down the back can say goodbye to their race—you'll be moving up through gap after gap created by brake grabbing novices. If you do make it to the front, hide from the wind, it'll be a matter of doing the least so you're fresh for the sprint—miss turns, hide on the left side on the finish stretch (but make sure you keep top 10 position going into left hander). Also, figure out who's the strongest and keep the train on their wheel. Communicating during race will be hard, but if your teammate is gesturing and pointing up the road, that means you probably need to get on the front and shut it down.

Keep with your teammates, you can't go hunting for everyone in the last 3 laps. If lead-out is the plan, you have to fight to get assembled early on and fight to keep assembled in that order for last lap. This race is a battle to keep position and you need to be constantly asking yourself: where am I, where do I want be, how do I get there, visualizing the last lap and your targets. Don't lose focus. Don't chase everything down, especially solo/duo attacks. If you're on the front and there's no one in front of you, get off the front. Agree plan, execute plan, win. 

Finale
In terms of sprint, I'd give Greg the slight edge over Sebastian, just because it's a pure power sprint and Greg can generate a lot of it. Maybe they both sprint but Greg starts at 250. The key is to have done your moving up before the bell lap so you're not burning matches to move up when it's full-gas. The year I won, it was similar conditions, there was a last lap 2-person attack up the road, I protected fourth wheel through punchy climb, came off a wheel out of the U full throttle. Having practiced the sprint enough, I knew I could hang on from there. I attacked into the gutter through the draft of the guys who still had a gap. I was lucky to get away, but 764/1 minute from winter of Computrainer bat fights helped. With teammates sprinting in front of you out of the turn it'll be better odds. Win this race!


DBBQ!

TessMichalik said:

@UlrikeGlaser we're going to be racing together in the women's cat 5

Hi Tess, that's great! Since I have no idea about racing in the US I'm open for any advice!?
I'll do the 3/4/5 race as well. Since I lost a lot of shape during the winter my plan was to go active, but as energy-saving as possible.

Let's see just how bad the conditions get today.  If it remains wet or there are patches of ice, I'm out, full stop.  Below freezing temps + wet = not a risk I'm willing to take.

I'll still be there with all my gear whether I end up racing or not.  I'll have a car and hopefully I'll find a parking spot relatively close so people can get out of the cold

I'm coming off a stomach flu and a cold for the past 2 weeks.  While I still feel pretty okay, fitness will definitely not be up to par.  If I do end up racing Just tell me who to work for and what strategy you want to employ.

I was planning to ride there as a warm up.

I was planning on driving, but since I have a tiny car & no bike rack I unfortunately can only take myself.

It's really coming down now. Doesn't seem to be sticking - if the roads around Grants are well-salted we should be ok. I'll line up regardless of conditions if it isn't canceled. 

I will show up no matter what

I'm with Yang on this one.

I'm playing it by ear. If its slick. I'm out.

It's March and I want to peak in early July and hopefully again at the end of August. Not willing to put that at a greater risk than I need to.