Yack-fu is reg'd! Same plan as last year, stay top 10 at ALL times and pray for legs in the finale. This race can be very difficult and if you get gapped its over. The U-turn is a critical spot...if you are too far back and 1 rider up ahead gets gapped...it can be race over for everyone behind him. Anticipate what gear you will need coming out of the turn and be in it before you hit the turn. I prefer to take the turn a little wide to ensure that I will be upright and rolling when I come out of it. It can be hard to get a good warm up for this race as well. Last year they kept us on the start line forever...which made the opening laps hurt bad. Dress appropriately...if you are cold at the start...that is a good sign as you will heat up quickly. I am hell bent on staying in the top 10 the entire race, so find my wheel and stay there. FYI I am lighter than I have ever been in February. I don't want to win....I want to work and get some high intensity race miles in. I have only raced the short course at Gant's...so I will not know what to do if they open the long course. Either way it will be a race of attrition. Giddy Up!!!
yacks

I just pre reg last night looking forward to this race.

yeah man!

Cat 3s...and Cat 4s. You both seem to have squads ready to race. Please consider getting up extra early this Sunday morning and meeting at Grant's Tomb for a few practice laps with leadouts, sprints and discussion about who is interested in doing what.

You don't want to get to race day and wonder what's going on in the head of your teammates when they ______________.

For all you 'crossers, a crit is more like cross race, in that knowing the course, the corners, the pavement surface, really helps. I can tell you, for example, the fast upward left turn after the descent is choppy and one of the best lines through it, is over some nasty pavement/manhole shit. The field avoids it like the plague. But if you are not a little sissy-girl, can handle your bike flopping around a bit, then it's a-okay and will help you move up without expending too much energy.

Marc,
We'll have the training crit at Rockleigh on Sunday for some of this. Also, people can work on this on tehir way home. REmember, some people don't live as close to the bridge as you.

JP,

Duh. Except as far as I know, everyone, except Tito, passes Grant's Tomb on their way to the group ride on Sunday. And on the way home, it's well into afternoon and the traffic will be heavy.

Traffic isn't that bad in the pm. Frankly, we're unlikely to drag our asses out of bed earlier. We've all done the race before and raced together before. We'll take a look on the way back. Also, we just cruise up the bike path and avoid Riverside.

Yo. Respect the Tomb.

http://www.bikereg.com/Results/2011/03/12-Grants-Tomb-Criterium.asp

Here's the discussion thread from last year's Grant's Tomb. It's a little light on the race reports, but since the Kissena crew racing it this year contains many of the same characters from last year's cat 3 squad, perhaps it will be enough to freshen up the old memory box to help start the plotting for this year.

http://kissena.info/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=151

I want to encourage you to think about what was good and not-so-good about last year's event. What do you think you should do differently to improve? What are you going to keep the same?

Thanks for posting marc, hopefully william will remember to attack in the drops next time.

I personally think attacking in the last two laps of a crit hoping to stay clear for the win, is like attacking in the last lap of Central Park at Tavern on the Green. That move is never going to work, on the hoods, in the drops, wherever.

@Michael:
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9i4abLVeD1qc073co1_400.gif

@Marc:
it almost worked! i think it's a lot easier to do in a crit (with corners/turns) than a circuit race. also, this is a cat3 field - there will be a certain element of boneheadedness in the chasing pack.

D'oh! I resemble Marc's comment. somehow my 1.5 mile power isn't where Fabian's is.

@William. Respect yo [insert appropriate urban fist-to-chest-peace-finger-explosion hand gesture here] for going out and taking a shot at true glory in last year's Grant's Tomb.

I've got to head to work in a few minutes, and I'm not sure I can make the tactic's talk, but I bet JP will share his thoughts on "the long bomb." If not I'll bore you with my thoughts on it during some group ride and/or write something longer later.

@ Everyone

If we were really targeting this race as a priority - either team or a certain individual - I could see the "the long bomb" not being the best idea. However, as a team, we would certainly like to win, but: 1. it will be the 2nd race of the year for most of use (1st for some); 2. Renee may have the training to do well, but for the most part, the rest of us are not targeting this race with our training, so we're pretty much in the "if the race presents itself with an opportunity, you go for it" mentality; and 3. With all due respect to my teammates' experience, most of us are still learning to race and learning when a truly good opportunity presents itself is the time to go, isn't outside of the goals of these early season races.

I agree with William in that chases can be wonky in the 3's (as in other categories in NYC - no monopoly on unexplained riding in the 3's). Also if we're riding well and setup properly, a late "bomb" like William threw last year means a free ride. We of course didn't do our part properly, nor did we have much more of a gameplan than get into a break and injured Renee is our backup plan.

We'll have a better idea of what people are riding like on Sunday, but still won't know how we'll be riding in a race. I'm in my best off-season shape (as are many people due to the weather) than I've been in memory, but I'm not ready to race (so I think at this time).

All-in-all, what I am saying is that our strategy is very much like our strategy at Riverhead or Maltese - get in a break and get as many teammates there as we can. If that fails, setup someone to sprint. This strategy works fine with experienced riders, so this bunch just has less experience than the usual 1-2-3 squads.

Also, we just want respect! A little respect, just a little bit.

Marc the rumor on the street is tomorrow when we are on our way back from the crit ride we will take a loop around the Grants Tomb Course and you will do a quick walk through?

duders:

i can't ride tomorrow, although if you wanted to practice in the morning BEFORE getting to the GWB, I could meet y'alls.

considering we don't know what course it will be on race day, it's hard to figure out the "where/when" of a lead-out train.

i think the most important thing on race day will be EVERYONE staying near the front, and having the kissenas in the pack work to mess up chases when other kissenas are off the front.

let me know about tomorrow AM.

Anytime the phrase "with all due respect" appears, you can pretty much be guaranteed that that so called "respect" is actually a big pile of dukey.

I'm not exactly sure why I'm getting shit on here by my fellow mentors everytime I try to encourage my clubmates to think critically, or engage in some race specific training related to this upcoming race, but so be it. As with any race or ride or anything, you are welcome to approach it with whatever attitude you feel is appropriate.

However, I believe that no race, be it the first or the second or 50th of the season, is too early to focus on racing smartly with sound tactical choices based on your goals for the season. Simply having a general plan to "get in the break" and then "set up someone to sprint" is a good starting point, but with just a little more effort, the squad can do more. And in fact, when you are not racing against the likes of John Loehners and other cat 1 hammerheads, our cat 3s SHOULD STRIVE TO DO MORE. When I do a NRC Pro 1/2 crit, I want to finish in the bunch. When I race in the park, I want to be part of a winning effort.

Eric said, "learning when a truly good opportunity presents itself is the time to go..." Yes, but we need to address the issue of what is a good opportunity to go. Just because you can get a gap at any given point in any given race, does not mean that that was a good time to go. At last year's Mengoni Grand Prix, those Scandanavian semi-pros got gaps all the time on the field, and 90% of them were EASILY brought back because they attacked at the wrong time given the nature of the course. Of course they were so much stronger than almost everyone else that they managed to do very well in that race, despite racing like jamokes.

Let me say a few course specific things about Grant's Tomb short-course now, for you to consider when thinking about the kinds and timing of any attacks you have ready to launch. If it is the short course, the downward sloping "backside" of the course allows the field to go extremely fast, with relative little effort (after the top-side 180). You come screaming into the banked 180 at the bottom of the course with white knuckles. The individual off the front is going to lose time here to the field big time. Remember, we're talking the short course. The drag to the finish is frequently cross-windy and rises. Here the individual, who is strong, may be able to maintain his gap, as riders in the peloton scurry about, hugging the left sided curb trying to grab shelter from the wind. The difference here is that while your speeds may be the same, the effort level will not. You will certainly expend more energy there than most of the field.

If the course were full of 6-10 90 degree turns in the course of a kilometer loop, then it's a different story. But then again it's the same story. I've seen impressive looking breaks die tragically in the closing laps of even supremely technical crits like the one in Burlington, VT.

So, you still want to go for the long bomb with a few laps to go? Okay, then the team needs to be ready and in position to give someone a leadout. If you've got a guy off the front, if you are cruising along 20-40 guys back in the field, you are not in the right position to help your team place in the final standing. You need to be in position to sprint or counter-attack or do something if the long-bomb explodes before it hits it's target.

At Grant's Tomb there are going to be plenty of guys with the "it's just the first race of the season" attitude. If you line up with a different attitude, you've already beat all of those guys guaranteed. Because when things get really tough, or tricky or stressful, that's all they will be saying to themselves as they get shuffled to the ass-end of the peloton, lap after lap after lap. "It's just the first race of the season."

word, marc!

i totally agree with this - we may not have terrific spring legs, but if we're smart, we can make them pedal above their level.

in a hilly road race, one's form is much more likely to be an issue. in a tactical rollercoaster like Grant's, it's more about how you play the game. in a team context, this means working OFF of each other - if i attack, you don't just sit in the pack . . . you get to the front and block.

-excited to play the game

Touchy

We will see each other and talk about the crit. We have been talking about it outside of the board and will make final decisions at and in the race.

As is, Renee is to sit in. Joe WDC Perlberg and I are to try to get away. Barring that, the leadout order is WDC Joe Mike me Renee. If that doesn't work then WDC mike me renee Joe. I should probably be last leadout Guy.

See critical thinking of sorts.

Marc, Eric, William, Joe and everyone who is following this thread.

We all obviously want to win and will all race hard to the win.

Problem is, this early in the season we have no idea about race form of all riders. Even myself. If I was really confident I'd say, "Set the sprint up for me bitches!" But I'm not. And honestly, right now I don't feel confident about saying that for anyone. No offense dudes, but even watts and Alpine times don't mean shit until you show you are ready for the dynamics and pace changes of races.

For example, this time last year I was putting out lifetime highs in wattage in all times under one hour. I'm ready to race right! Nope, dropped the first two weeks in a row.

So we can come up with some general plans. We can refine after crit workshop tomorrow. I think we'll need to see how everyone does after week one of racing.

If anyone wants to do some loops around Grant's course on the way home tomorrow, I'm up for it. I'd also be willing to check it out next Sunday.

Mike

@Mike - umm. I'm not following this thread!

Breakaway gospel (skip to 2.24):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_RSQSYgGB4

Win this race: if Perlberg and Joe can't stay away for last 4 laps, Ragot and Renee 1-2/2-1

Schmaltz's RR seemed on point (for the no-short-hill course).
http://nyvelocity.com/content/journals/2011/schmalz-grants-tomb-3122011

Who would like to captain this outing?
I have no experience with this race, it does seem to lend itself to a lead-out train—Yacks?

Chris Yack malverne NY Kissena bike club 02/23/12
Gideon Sorkin New York NY Kissena Cycling Club 02/22/12
Jeffrey White Brooklyn NY Kissena Cycling Club 02/16/12
John Malcolmson Brooklyn NY Kissena Cycling Club 02/27/12
Jules Roazen Brooklyn NY Kissena Cycling Club 02/18/12
Matthew Arlyck New York NY Kissena Cycling Club 02/18/12
Mattie davitt

@Malcolmson. Schmalz is wrong about one major thing. The short course is HARDER to sit in on than the long course. With the short course, the 180 degree at the top of the course forces everyone but the top 10 or so riders to slow significantly and unleash a mighty out of the saddle sprint every lap. The long course, with smart positioning and line choice, can offer up a little bit of rest on a pretty unrelenting course. Yes, you have to climb a bit, but really the momentum of the descent, should get you 1/3 of the way up the climb every time.

John,
I felt dumber after Schmalz's post than I did going in. He sat in, saw some attacks, thought it was going to be a field sprint. There was. Did he see WDC's move nearly make it? Did he consider attacking? Did he happen to watch the pro/am race? Long break. Did he see the races in 2010, on the same course, when they finished in breakaways as well?

The big thing for me is to use the complacency of people like Schmalz to your advantage. If it's the short course, speeding up before the first turn to blast out of the second can get you the gap needed. Or take advantage of the way the pack slows approaching the finish line. If you want to attack, the first move is to get away quickly and cleanly so they think it too hard to accelerate and chase.

Posted By: mugwump
The big thing for me is to use the complacency of people like Schmalz to your advantage.

Agree 100%. It's one of the major points I was trying to get across in the Cat 3 version of this thread.

Posted By: mugwumpDid he see WDC's move nearly make it?

The other thing that struck me about his report is that Kissena didn't get a mention. Which points to the fact that as a team, we can go into it and out of it thinking we were really influential, but from the vantage point of some other races, we were anonymous. This doesn't mean that the author was right in his perspective, it just means that it's easier to race with blinders on and not really see the race. In some cases, we can't see the race (if we are stuck in the back, just following the wheel of the guy in front of us), but in other cases, we're so hyper-focused on what we're doing as individuals that we're not really absorbing what other people are doing.

And in the case of Schmalz, I just don't think he's all that good at writing a race report. I mean, his report was more about his personal anxiety and feelings, and maybe that was by design.

But I will say, I feel like most of the Kissena race reports I read are filled with details of the other rider's actions as well as your own. Hell you guys even come up with nicknames for some of your competitors. And that tells me that you guys are paying attention to what's going on around you.

Reg'd, so that makes 7.

The straight shot makes it train capable. I've had mixed luck personally, you really need to make sure the lead out guys are going hard enough to break you out or else you're going to get boxed in. I don't get to do many park races with teammates, so I've become more of a freestyle sprinter. I'm not sure if it makes sense, but since you guys have more time racing with John at fbf, maybe work a train for him, and point out the other team's field sprinters for me to mark?

I could be a little off here...but if memory serves, Malcolmson tends to like the long sprint, and he's got mad torque/diesel power, which thinking about the dynamics of that course, with it's slightly uphill windy finishing sprint, just might make him the perfect last leadout guy if Mattie or anyone else is feeling sharp and snappy and ballsy for the final 100 meter push to the line.

And if Mattie is that guy...he just has to focus on staying on the wheel of one guy in the last couple of laps. At the Rockleigh crit practice, I had a couple of guys who I rarely ride with and never race with, our original plan got messed up, but within 1/4 of a lap they found my wheel, tucked in, and they handled their business like pros as I started to fade.

Y'all might want to check in with those who did some practice laps of the course on Sunday and see if they found it helpful. If you are racing in CP this coming weekend, you could ride about 7 minutes north after your race and check out the course.