Mar 08, 2012 at 09:34 PM
This is how tactics should happen what happens if a diff story. I do not think attacking in pairs works in new york city. But definitely try to beat the field up this is a strong guys for later.
Grant's Tomb Criterium
Mar 09, 2012 at 12:49 AM
Cat 3 and Cat 4 Crew - Regarding Friday's ride, my advice:
It's time to establish a consistent pre-race ride to open up your legs for the next day. We'll call this ride "openers."
Now openers can take on different forms based on what type of race you are doing the next day, but the basic routine to start with (you may find something else works well, but this worked for me and Mike last year):
w/u for 15-20 min
3x1,5 - so 3 efforts of 1 min each separated by at least 5 min of rest.
3x30s,5 - 3 30sec efforts with 5 min rest
3x10s,5 - 3 10 second sprints, 5 minin between.
Cool Down.
this should take 1.5 hours.
Now, how does it vary based on the race the next day? I like to think about what kind of race is coming and what I'll be doing in that race.
If the race is flat and hard - do the efforts on the flats (in P. Park - go from before the Temple until the effort ends, then cut through the middle road to the middle of the hill, roll back down and repeat).
If the race has a small hill or an uphill section you'll have to sprint or go hard up, then I say do your efforts with a slight hill (in P. Park, use the middle road for the efforts and then roll down the hill and back to the middle road to start again).
If the race is a crit where there will be many changes of pace, I'd suggest that the efforts be done in a lighter gear so that you're emphasizing spinning up and fast cadence - say a 53x19 or 17 and done on the flats. I don't know the gear yet because last year I think I did these too hard. The effort level is really hard, but because of the gear, you won't be able to go that hard.
Keep it very light and spinning on the rest intervals for the crit workout for sure. Light and then hard and fast. Light, hard and fast...
Good luck all, I'll be out in the park tomorrow at 4:30 (maybe sooner, but 4:30 is a safe bet) doing openers. Please come join me.
It's time to establish a consistent pre-race ride to open up your legs for the next day. We'll call this ride "openers."
Now openers can take on different forms based on what type of race you are doing the next day, but the basic routine to start with (you may find something else works well, but this worked for me and Mike last year):
w/u for 15-20 min
3x1,5 - so 3 efforts of 1 min each separated by at least 5 min of rest.
3x30s,5 - 3 30sec efforts with 5 min rest
3x10s,5 - 3 10 second sprints, 5 minin between.
Cool Down.
this should take 1.5 hours.
Now, how does it vary based on the race the next day? I like to think about what kind of race is coming and what I'll be doing in that race.
If the race is flat and hard - do the efforts on the flats (in P. Park - go from before the Temple until the effort ends, then cut through the middle road to the middle of the hill, roll back down and repeat).
If the race has a small hill or an uphill section you'll have to sprint or go hard up, then I say do your efforts with a slight hill (in P. Park, use the middle road for the efforts and then roll down the hill and back to the middle road to start again).
If the race is a crit where there will be many changes of pace, I'd suggest that the efforts be done in a lighter gear so that you're emphasizing spinning up and fast cadence - say a 53x19 or 17 and done on the flats. I don't know the gear yet because last year I think I did these too hard. The effort level is really hard, but because of the gear, you won't be able to go that hard.
Keep it very light and spinning on the rest intervals for the crit workout for sure. Light and then hard and fast. Light, hard and fast...
Good luck all, I'll be out in the park tomorrow at 4:30 (maybe sooner, but 4:30 is a safe bet) doing openers. Please come join me.
Mar 09, 2012 at 12:50 AM
Cat 3 and Cat 4 Crew - Regarding Friday's ride, my advice:
It's time to establish a consistent pre-race ride to open up your legs for the next day. We'll call this ride "openers."
Now openers can take on different forms based on what type of race you are doing the next day, but the basic routine to start with (you may find something else works well, but this worked for me and Mike last year):
w/u for 15-20 min
3x1,5 - so 3 efforts of 1 min each separated by at least 5 min of rest.
3x30s,5 - 3 30sec efforts with 5 min rest
3x10s,5 - 3 10 second sprints, 5 minin between.
Cool Down.
this should take 1.5 hours.
Now, how does it vary based on the race the next day? I like to think about what kind of race is coming and what I'll be doing in that race.
If the race is flat and hard - do the efforts on the flats (in P. Park - go from before the Temple until the effort ends, then cut through the middle road to the middle of the hill, roll back down and repeat).
If the race has a small hill or an uphill section you'll have to sprint or go hard up, then I say do your efforts with a slight hill (in P. Park, use the middle road for the efforts and then roll down the hill and back to the middle road to start again).
If the race is a crit where there will be many changes of pace, I'd suggest that the efforts be done in a lighter gear so that you're emphasizing spinning up and fast cadence - say a 53x19 or 17 and done on the flats. I don't know the gear yet because last year I think I did these too hard. The effort level is really hard, but because of the gear, you won't be able to go that hard.
Keep it very light and spinning on the rest intervals for the crit workout for sure. Light and then hard and fast. Light, hard and fast...
Good luck all, I'll be out in the park tomorrow at 4:30 (maybe sooner, but 4:30 is a safe bet) doing openers. Please come join me.
It's time to establish a consistent pre-race ride to open up your legs for the next day. We'll call this ride "openers."
Now openers can take on different forms based on what type of race you are doing the next day, but the basic routine to start with (you may find something else works well, but this worked for me and Mike last year):
w/u for 15-20 min
3x1,5 - so 3 efforts of 1 min each separated by at least 5 min of rest.
3x30s,5 - 3 30sec efforts with 5 min rest
3x10s,5 - 3 10 second sprints, 5 minin between.
Cool Down.
this should take 1.5 hours.
Now, how does it vary based on the race the next day? I like to think about what kind of race is coming and what I'll be doing in that race.
If the race is flat and hard - do the efforts on the flats (in P. Park - go from before the Temple until the effort ends, then cut through the middle road to the middle of the hill, roll back down and repeat).
If the race has a small hill or an uphill section you'll have to sprint or go hard up, then I say do your efforts with a slight hill (in P. Park, use the middle road for the efforts and then roll down the hill and back to the middle road to start again).
If the race is a crit where there will be many changes of pace, I'd suggest that the efforts be done in a lighter gear so that you're emphasizing spinning up and fast cadence - say a 53x19 or 17 and done on the flats. I don't know the gear yet because last year I think I did these too hard. The effort level is really hard, but because of the gear, you won't be able to go that hard.
Keep it very light and spinning on the rest intervals for the crit workout for sure. Light and then hard and fast. Light, hard and fast...
Good luck all, I'll be out in the park tomorrow at 4:30 (maybe sooner, but 4:30 is a safe bet) doing openers. Please come join me.
Mar 09, 2012 at 09:43 AM
Posted By: John MalcolmsonI think it won't hurt terribly if you guys try this once or twice. I would expect that sending two guys from the same team up the road at the same time to attract "move-shutting-down" response from the pack, but maybe not. A few years back two guys from the same team in the Pro 1/2 race got off the front and schooled the field. Of course, it was the long course and...they were both national caliber Cat 1 track racers I think. (JP you remember this race, right?)@ Eric, what about two up attacks? In Cat 4 we have 13 entered. Could we not try the same but with pairs? The reason I'm asking is because in many C4 park races we get 1 Kissena dangling at 10-20 seconds, who is then brought back...
I think what is going to be key, is having a Kissena get away, and stay away long enough to motivate someone to try and bridge up. If that doesn't happen though, you still want another Kissena waiting to counter attack when your guy is brought back. With a big group of riders you should have enough guys to do this until something sticks, plus keep a few guys fresh for the sprint if there's nothing-doing in this attack.
Alternatively, you could have one Kissena go off the front, and with full attention on the front of the field, if no one else tries to bridge, send one of your strongest after his own teammate. Then you've got a 2-up breakaway to block! That second rider has to be STRONG and put in a SHARP acceleration to make sure he doesn't drag the field along with him though.
At any rate all of this requires that Kissena is all over the front of the field for the duration of the race. Good luck!
Mar 09, 2012 at 09:49 AM
Posted By: Marc BertuccoPosted By: John MalcolmsonI think it won't hurt terribly if you guys try this once or twice. I would expect that sending two guys from the same team up the road at the same time to attract "move-shutting-down" response from the pack, but maybe not. A few years back two guys from the same team in the Pro 1/2 race got off the front and schooled the field. Of course, it was the long course and...they were both national caliber Cat 1 track racers I think. (JP you remember this race, right?)@ Eric, what about two up attacks? In Cat 4 we have 13 entered. Could we not try the same but with pairs? The reason I'm asking is because in many C4 park races we get 1 Kissena dangling at 10-20 seconds, who is then brought back...
I think what is going to be key, is having a Kissena get away, and stay away long enough to motivate someone to try and bridge up. If that doesn't happen though, you still want another Kissena waiting to counter attack when your guy is brought back. With a big group of riders you should have enough guys to do this until something sticks, plus keep a few guys fresh for the sprint if there's nothing-doing in this attack.
Alternatively, you could have one Kissena go off the front, and with full attention on the front of the field, if no one else tries to bridge, send one of your strongest after his own teammate. Then you've got a 2-up breakaway to block! That second rider has to be STRONG and put in a SHARP acceleration to make sure he doesn't drag the field along with him though.
At any rate all of this requires that Kissena is all over the front of the field for the duration of the race. Good luck!
Mar 09, 2012 at 12:55 PM
A thing to remember with races, and this is particularly important in crits, is that you have to maintain your position. So unless you're trying to recover, or are already sitting in the top 10 riders, you should be looking to move up. So one Kissena at 5th wheel and one at 15th is ok, but really, it's better if we've got the others sitting 16-20. Easy to communicate, easy to cover moves. The guy in 5th is in a good spot if the field separates, but the guys around 15th are there for the accelerations.
The guy in 5th is in a great position for the narrow parts of the GT long course, from the first through the fourth turns, able to take the better lines with greater speed, and is there if the field starts to split. But after the fourth turn, he's in a less good place to respond to attacks, which is where the riders behind get the advantage.
And when there's one rider who the team wants to focus on for a particular spot in the race, like setting up someone to go with an attack at a particular point, you want to cover moves and not help the moves too much as well as respond to them so the rider you want to spring can save energy and pick his spots.
The guy in 5th is in a great position for the narrow parts of the GT long course, from the first through the fourth turns, able to take the better lines with greater speed, and is there if the field starts to split. But after the fourth turn, he's in a less good place to respond to attacks, which is where the riders behind get the advantage.
And when there's one rider who the team wants to focus on for a particular spot in the race, like setting up someone to go with an attack at a particular point, you want to cover moves and not help the moves too much as well as respond to them so the rider you want to spring can save energy and pick his spots.
Mar 09, 2012 at 01:03 PM
With 14 entered, attacking in two's can make sense. However, you need to have repeated coordinated attacks for them to have any chance. Any field should be alarmed when two people wearing the same jersey attack at the same time. Expect the field will react.
However, if you have four repeated two-up Kissena attacks, the field might get tired of chasing and let the last one go. At least for a little while. Even here, expect there will be a chase-down and then have another two in the ready.
Doing this sort of thing early could do a great job of taking weaker riders, and the unlucky ones behind them, off the back. You'll burn matches for sure, but a smaller field might be worth the expenditure.
However, if you have four repeated two-up Kissena attacks, the field might get tired of chasing and let the last one go. At least for a little while. Even here, expect there will be a chase-down and then have another two in the ready.
Doing this sort of thing early could do a great job of taking weaker riders, and the unlucky ones behind them, off the back. You'll burn matches for sure, but a smaller field might be worth the expenditure.
Mar 09, 2012 at 01:06 PM
I've got the green light for this, stage fright notwithstanding. Who wants to take a stab at organizing the "rotation" of attacking pain?
Mar 09, 2012 at 01:43 PM
Moved over to the Cat 4 thread ...
Mar 09, 2012 at 03:37 PM
Unless someone else is feeling particularly keen, I'm happy to run Team Tomb 4.
As Jeff W. says, position is key in the first 10 minutes! We should get on the line early so our whole team is together near the front. You then HAVE TO stay there—drift to the back and it'll be curtains for your race, trust me.
Depends on the course they choose, but I don't think a breakaway is favored tomorrow; tailwind sprint, temperatures just near freezing, sunny.
That said. Jules and I discussed giving it a go about 15 minutes in, post the expected stampede, ideally countering a Kissena break. If that doesn't work we will reorganize to lead-out Mattie, it's a short race! We could try the strategy Ragot recommends on the C3 thread — 5th and 15h.
Mattie will be protected (need volunteer to shepherd him) and coming into the bell we need to line up 6 guys who are feeling strong. If you feel you should be one of those 6 (or more), find Mattie, Jules and I two to go near the front. Hudson, Velo, Sid's will undoubtedly line up a train, so it's going to be a drag race. I feel confident we can win this if Jules and I are leading Mattie through the final corner. It's getting to that corner first that is going to be key. It's going to be fast! I don't know how well people are going. I know the Jeff's are strong from last weeks race. I know you other guys are super strong too for more attacks: Gideon, you have a strong sprint yeah?Joji? Jim? Mathew A? Let us know what you think you can and would like to achieve during the race. I'd like us all to have an explicit role/goals for the race.
christopher bloome
David Gardiner
David Vollbach
chris yack
Gideon Sorkin
Jeff Condon
Jeffrey White
Jim Nelson
John Malcolmson
Joji Matsushima
Jules Roazen
Matthew Arlyck
matthew davitt
Let's win this mother flipper!
As Jeff W. says, position is key in the first 10 minutes! We should get on the line early so our whole team is together near the front. You then HAVE TO stay there—drift to the back and it'll be curtains for your race, trust me.
Depends on the course they choose, but I don't think a breakaway is favored tomorrow; tailwind sprint, temperatures just near freezing, sunny.
That said. Jules and I discussed giving it a go about 15 minutes in, post the expected stampede, ideally countering a Kissena break. If that doesn't work we will reorganize to lead-out Mattie, it's a short race! We could try the strategy Ragot recommends on the C3 thread — 5th and 15h.
Mattie will be protected (need volunteer to shepherd him) and coming into the bell we need to line up 6 guys who are feeling strong. If you feel you should be one of those 6 (or more), find Mattie, Jules and I two to go near the front. Hudson, Velo, Sid's will undoubtedly line up a train, so it's going to be a drag race. I feel confident we can win this if Jules and I are leading Mattie through the final corner. It's getting to that corner first that is going to be key. It's going to be fast! I don't know how well people are going. I know the Jeff's are strong from last weeks race. I know you other guys are super strong too for more attacks: Gideon, you have a strong sprint yeah?Joji? Jim? Mathew A? Let us know what you think you can and would like to achieve during the race. I'd like us all to have an explicit role/goals for the race.
christopher bloome
David Gardiner
David Vollbach
chris yack
Gideon Sorkin
Jeff Condon
Jeffrey White
Jim Nelson
John Malcolmson
Joji Matsushima
Jules Roazen
Matthew Arlyck
matthew davitt
Let's win this mother flipper!
Mar 09, 2012 at 04:43 PM
STARTS!
One thing we haven't addressed is starting. Malcolmson sort of addresses it, but I'd like to give some more detail.
For a race like GT, where the first turn is almost immediately after the start and it's a crit, starting well is important. It's not only getting toward the front for the start, but starting in the right gear. I treat this kind of start like a cyclocross start. That is, I shift into the 52x21 or even 23 before the start, with a minute to go, I've got my butt in the saddle and hands on the drops. And when they say go try to move up immediately.
If you're stuck at the back, start behind the field. Like 10-15 feet behind so you get get into your pedals without chaos and pick a good line and pass people quickly.
One thing we haven't addressed is starting. Malcolmson sort of addresses it, but I'd like to give some more detail.
For a race like GT, where the first turn is almost immediately after the start and it's a crit, starting well is important. It's not only getting toward the front for the start, but starting in the right gear. I treat this kind of start like a cyclocross start. That is, I shift into the 52x21 or even 23 before the start, with a minute to go, I've got my butt in the saddle and hands on the drops. And when they say go try to move up immediately.
If you're stuck at the back, start behind the field. Like 10-15 feet behind so you get get into your pedals without chaos and pick a good line and pass people quickly.
Mar 09, 2012 at 04:48 PM
Moved over from the Cat 3 thread ...
I know we've got a fit bunch of guys, but I want to echo something Yacks said a while back in this thread (I'm too lazy to get an exact quote, sorry):
This race -- at least the first 10 minutes or so -- is purely about survival. It will be every man for himself to try to cling to a front-ish position. And I'm not just talking about Kissenas. Literally every rider with any sense will be trying to do the EXACT same thing. Once you get a wheel near the front, you'll already be moving back, you can count on that. So always be closing. Always Be Closing.
This isn't to say all our pre-race planning is for naught, but I do think each of us should be mentally prepared for the dogfight for position that is the beginning of Grant's Tomb. (My strategy is to make like a prison bitch and find a big powerful dude and shadow him.)
Once things are settled down, and some of the pop has been taken out of everyone's legs, we can try to coagulate near the front and start our attacks. I'd be down to try a two-up attack, or to simply be in position to counter something else. If someone wants to get my wheel when I go, feel free. Just yell something so I know you're there.
One more thing I'd like to note:
I've seen Kissenas be a bit too enthusiastic about blocking and shutting down moves when one of our guys is off the front. Just keep in mind that our teammate off the front WANTS PEOPLE TO BRIDGE TO HIM. So don't shut down anything that tries to do that. Better to let it go and be sneaky about trying to get a free ride up to the break. As Ragot said, that's how you get two guys in a break. It's time to shut down such bridging attempts when the break is already established with enough bodies to have a chance to succeed.
I know we've got a fit bunch of guys, but I want to echo something Yacks said a while back in this thread (I'm too lazy to get an exact quote, sorry):
This race -- at least the first 10 minutes or so -- is purely about survival. It will be every man for himself to try to cling to a front-ish position. And I'm not just talking about Kissenas. Literally every rider with any sense will be trying to do the EXACT same thing. Once you get a wheel near the front, you'll already be moving back, you can count on that. So always be closing. Always Be Closing.
This isn't to say all our pre-race planning is for naught, but I do think each of us should be mentally prepared for the dogfight for position that is the beginning of Grant's Tomb. (My strategy is to make like a prison bitch and find a big powerful dude and shadow him.)
Once things are settled down, and some of the pop has been taken out of everyone's legs, we can try to coagulate near the front and start our attacks. I'd be down to try a two-up attack, or to simply be in position to counter something else. If someone wants to get my wheel when I go, feel free. Just yell something so I know you're there.
One more thing I'd like to note:
I've seen Kissenas be a bit too enthusiastic about blocking and shutting down moves when one of our guys is off the front. Just keep in mind that our teammate off the front WANTS PEOPLE TO BRIDGE TO HIM. So don't shut down anything that tries to do that. Better to let it go and be sneaky about trying to get a free ride up to the break. As Ragot said, that's how you get two guys in a break. It's time to shut down such bridging attempts when the break is already established with enough bodies to have a chance to succeed.
Mar 09, 2012 at 04:51 PM
Is anyone going over to GT to spectate tomorrow ? I am thinking of riding over, watching the race, then going over to Central Park to do my openers in prep for Sunday's race.
Mar 09, 2012 at 05:04 PM
I'm thinking about it. I could try and shoot some pics, if someone brings a camera (mine was stolen). Feeling a bit better, but will ride up on my commuter,.
Mar 09, 2012 at 05:05 PM
I have reasonable SLR if someone wants to put their hand up...
Mar 09, 2012 at 05:06 PM
@John, I think your roster is missing a few key folks. From BikeReg:
christopher bloome
David Gardiner
David Vollbach
chris yack
Gideon Sorkin
Jeff Condon
Jeffrey White
Jim Nelson
John Malcolmson
Joji Matsushima
Jules Roazen
Matthew Arlyck
matthew davitt
christopher bloome
David Gardiner
David Vollbach
chris yack
Gideon Sorkin
Jeff Condon
Jeffrey White
Jim Nelson
John Malcolmson
Joji Matsushima
Jules Roazen
Matthew Arlyck
matthew davitt
Mar 09, 2012 at 05:14 PM
I promise to only bike or take pictures, but not both at the same time
Mar 09, 2012 at 05:24 PM
ABC's
Posted By: Jeffrey White Always Be Closing
Mar 09, 2012 at 05:51 PM
A tail wind would be nice. We could roll up the right side and not have to worry about getting boxed in on the left side curb.
Mar 09, 2012 at 06:01 PM
I'm going to leave early - would like to be there 6:30 - time for numbers, warmup and a good position
what time is the gang meeting at GAP or BB?
I'm a little worried we're going to have to trade warmup for position but I don't see a way around it
what time is the gang meeting at GAP or BB?
I'm a little worried we're going to have to trade warmup for position but I don't see a way around it
Mar 09, 2012 at 06:12 PM
@ Jeff... Thanks for catching that. We have a killer line-up!
All you 10 minute power monsters are a huge final laps threat; I can picture clearly a Vollbach/Roazen 1-2 victory.
@ Mattie. Can you recommend a spot for a pre-race team meeting?
All you 10 minute power monsters are a huge final laps threat; I can picture clearly a Vollbach/Roazen 1-2 victory.
@ Mattie. Can you recommend a spot for a pre-race team meeting?
Mar 09, 2012 at 06:13 PM
Yeah what time at the Brooklyn Bridge?
Mar 09, 2012 at 06:13 PM
5:45?
Mar 09, 2012 at 06:14 PM
@ Mattie, tail wind means we drill it hard right side from the corner yeah? Even better; we can drill it going into the corner because you can pedal safely right through that sucker.
Mar 09, 2012 at 06:34 PM
I will try to do what I did last year...remain top 10 the entire race. With this in mind, behind me would be a good place to park yourself. If you guys can set up anything behind me with 2 laps to go, I will do everything I can to put a Kissena train at the front on the last lap U-turn. Do not let any gap go after the U-turn. Do not trust anyone else to shut down a small gap after the U-turn. Your race can end this way. Be mentally prepared to put the power down after the U-turn. That is all.
Yack
Yack
Mar 09, 2012 at 06:48 PM
@John aka Honcho: I know the Daves don't patrol the boards as much as some of us losers, but we should definitely make sure to find them before the race to make sure we're on the same page. They're monsters and we should try to help them get into breaks via attacks they could counter or bridge to.
Mar 09, 2012 at 07:05 PM
@ Jeff W. Totally agree. Gardiner has some major Strava data. Calling all Daves!
Mar 09, 2012 at 07:09 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVQPY4LlbJ4
Mar 09, 2012 at 07:11 PM
I'll probably be holding on for dear life at the start of the race, but I'm down for whatever I can do for the team. Just give me a mission.
What time is the Brooklyn contingent leaving from BB in the morning?
What time is the Brooklyn contingent leaving from BB in the morning?
Mar 09, 2012 at 08:19 PM
I'll be at GT 6.30ish.