Hey Y'all,

Me again. Winter Training Tip #2:

As the cross season winds down, the weather is chilling, weekends are freeing up and you know what that means? More GROUP RIDES!

Even though this is my first year on Kissena, I've been tagging along for years with JP on Kissena group rides, and one thing I've learned is that Kissena loves them some cold-weather group rides. (Also, Kissena will always choose to take the crappiest roads out there, even when a freshly paved parallel thoroughfare is available...but that's another story)

A lot of experienced and knowledgeable coaches might tell their athletes to stay away from the group ride. And as a latent, as-of-yet un-certified coach myself, I might agree with them. For most of the riders in any given group, the group ride is likely too hard (e.g. to qualify as true base mileage), too long, too easy (e.g. for realistic race-pace simulation), or too "at the wrong time of the year" (e.g. tempo/threshold rides in December for roadies).

BUT...there are undeniable benefits to the group ride that should not be ignored either. Developing better pack riding skills, getting to know your teammates, helping motivate to ride on especially nasty cold/wet/icky days, getting pushed beyond what you might normally be able to achieve on your own.

On the flip side, if, when you get home from one of these rides, you feel as though you might be better off on your couch for 3 days straight in a state of semi-consciousness, rather than continue to function in the land of the living...that's probably a sign that you over-did-it.

Don't get me wrong roadies, there is a time and place for this kind of ride. But, DECEMBER is not it.

The key to better managing the group ride is to first know what your personal training objective is for the day/week/cycle and make smart choices. Here are some ideas to consider:

1. Skip it. I'm probably going to get pummeled for this one but...if you can only get out one day on the weekend for your longer ride, and you are counting on that ride to be your long-slow-distance/base mileage ride, then I would recommend you either go solo, or find other riders of similar fitness levels to ride with on the weekends (and pinky swear not to half-wheel each other) and consider skipping the regular Sunday Kissena group ride. I have noticed that some folks do start out with the Sunday crew, then turn back at Sparkill. And I think that choice makes a lot of sense. 9W's wide shoulders, gently rolling terrain ensure that even if the turn-backers decide to rocket all the way home to the GWB, a nice draft should be available for those not feeling as sprightly or are in need of some more base fitness.

2. Talk to your coach. Tell him/her that you want to incorporate group rides into your winter training plan. Tell him what these group rides are generally like. And, in my opinion, a good coach will work with you to help you get in a group ride without throwing off the overall balance of your winter training plan. This may mean sitting in the draft for more portions of the group ride than some would like, or giving you timed efforts to hammer at the front during the course of the ride (causing cry-babies like me to wonder loudly aloud, "why are we going so frig'n hard?"), adding more easy riding to your weekday schedule, etc.

3. Know what's coming. I was recently asked by a Cat 5 non-kissena racer at a cross race, if I thought he needed to be putting in 5-6 hour rides on the weekends. After I was done giving myself the Heimlich maneuver from choking on my wafel-dingy, I asked him what his longest Cat 5 race of the season would be? And suggested that if he could get in nice 2.5-4 hour rides on the weekends, that would probably be great. Also, I mentioned that if he really wanted to ride for 5 hours or more, he could do it, but he should go really really easy the whole time. Because for almost everyone that is reading this, even a 5 hour easy ride is going to exert a fairly significant physiologic effect on the body all by itself. Never mind trying to do 5 hours at that medium-hard-sub-tempo-no-man's-land pace that seems to prevail on group rides.

4. Eat and drink and be merry. Cold temps means your body has to work harder to keep warm, so you are going to have to eat a little more than you are accustomed to to avoid the dreaded bonk. Also keep drinking. Under all 115 layers of spandex, you are sweating and you need to replenish lost fluids, even if you don't "feel" thirsty because it's 25 degrees out.


-Marc Bertucco

I have to disagree with Marc's comments here.

My disagreements are many. The biggest one is on the importance of "long-slow-distance/base mileage rides." They can be fun, and fun is really important, but there is no physiological reason for them. Ask yourself this. What does LSD riding train? In the old days, pro bike riders did these because they were fun, because they were trying to lose weight, because they had nothing else to do. Amateur bike riders did this because they were fun, because they were trying to lose weight, because it was a great way to socialize while exercising, and because they were done on the rare days when they could actually go out and enjoy daylight. More recently, there were people who looked at these rides as a way to gain efficiency at lower heart rates. This was an interesting idea and based on heart rate monitor use. It seemed like a good use of the technology and yes, you'll probably see an improvement if you go out and ride at 70% of your max heart rate every day for three months, but it doesn't answer whether or not that's the best way to improve or use the time.

There is increasing evidence that riding harder is better. The arguments are many in favor of this, but I'll try to keep it short. One is that your body becomes fitter faster by riding harder (there is no such thing as "no man's land" in this model). Frank Overton touches on this in what is popularly called "sweet spot training" (article here http://www.fascatcoaching.com/tempotraining.html) Obviously, there is overdoing it, but the only way you're overdoing something is if you're not recovered enough to do the rest of your planned hard workouts during the week. And just because you don't recover enough one week, doesn't mean you won't recover enough the next.

Another thing about going "hard" on group rides; the spikes in effort are almost impossible to replicate indoors. I'm not referring to attacking each other on group rides, but on the fact that the change in effort it takes to go uphill, particularly short, steep hills, even when trying to ride "steady" is nearly impossible to replicate indoors, even with a computrainer.

I've also found very little evidence that cold weather makes the body work harder to stay warm in any significant fashion. I'd like ot believe cold-weather riding burns more calories, but I don't see how this could be so by more than a tiny percentage. Once you're sweating, your body is warm. If you're bathing in sweat, your body is too warm. I think that cold-weather riding feels harder because of air density; cold air is more dense than warm air, and because cold air is usually drier than warm air, it is more dense still. And mentally, when your body starts shutting down on a cold day, it feels worse than on a hot day, because you get cold.

Since riding with others is the necessary component of mass-start racing, and that is what we do for the majority of races, riding with others should be treated as a skill you need to train. In some respects, I believe it is either the most important skill or second-most for a lower-category racers, but it is a skill that everbody needs, and even pros need to work on it (witness Lance Armstrong in 2009). If you can't ride safely, comfortably, and confidently in a group, you shouldn't be racing in a group. And, as a skill, it is something lower-category racers should work on constantly. In short, if you don't have a group ride during the week, you should have at least one on the weekends.

And riding with the people you race with is a great idea, particularly for lower-category racers. Do not discount the importance of the human element to group rides. You get to know them--their riding styles, their strengths and weaknesses, their personalities. Knowing what they look like in a paceline comes in handy when you're chasing down a dangerous move together, when you're leading someone out, when you're in a breakaway together.

Lots of people make a stink about training like pros and use this a reason against going on group rides. These people overlook many things, most notably that they aren't pro themselves. We do not fly off to Tenerife or Majorca or even Tucson for Kissena training camps. As a result, we're way behind them in terms of group cohesion. The Sunday group ride is our once a week training camp. Think of it this way; if you ride with the people you race with once a week between the first of January and the first weekend of March, when racing around here begins, that's typically eight rides. Not even eight days, and most pro riders are getting in at least one, if not several week-long training camps where they're living with their teammates before they start their season.

Precision in training is something that is over-hyped; you could have always gone harder until it's too hard, and knowing where that line is in advance of crossing it is next to impossible. Racing, by and large, isn't precise. The pack rarely goes a speed taht is perfect for you, the winning attack only happens at a perfect time for those in the winning move. Yes, precision has its place, but you have monday through friday for precision. Having Saturday and/or Sunday for more flexibility helps you get used to the unpredictability that is racing.

I'm also of the idea that group rides and going past your perceived boundaries is good mental training. Yes, it is true that no category five or even four racer needs, for the sake of his physical training plan, a five-hour ride. I do believe that by doing such rides people are great mental preparation. A kind of confidence comes from having done stupid-hard training rides. Dropped with 20 miles to go in the GMSR road race? That's nothing, you rode 30 miles feeling dead in 20 degree weather in the winter, 20 miles in Vermont in the summer is nothing.

As an overall issue, I've come to look at training, and winter training in particular, with the idea of what I like to call a fatigue-based model. Essentially, you're riding to get tired so you can recover and get tired again. These repeated cycles of fatigue and rest should result in your body getting better at handling the fatigue which means you'll be able to ride a combination of longer and harder. For people who are stuck training inside, riding a combination of long and hard on the weekends is probably the only way to get the necessary overall fatigue load so when you transition to racing in the spring and riding outdoors every day a bit after that, and keep on riding outside for the summer, your body can handle the strain you put on it.

And the only way you know if something is too hard is by actually doing it and seeing how you feel when its over.

So, yes, when we get into the Sunday ride thing, which will be shortly, come out. We've designed the ride for flexibility; you can ride with people stronger and weaker than you—and riding with such people is a good thing. Because the ride is largely flattish, the strong can take longer pulls at the front, the weaker shorter pulls or not at all. Those who have time commitments or don't desire the entire length have a way of turning back early. For out of shape Category Five Brooklynites, start by riding with the group to the GWB and then ride home the first week. Ride a little further with the group each week until you can make Sparkill. For others, if the ride gets too hard for your taste, sit at the back.

And yes, I have both a talk and a brochure on training that I would like to go into this month. Must find a location and put up a doodle poll.

hear hear

at our level (everyone but Joaquin!) more time on the bike is a good thing

even if "too" it's hard, the group ride can only help

I had this long email typed up to respond to JP's response...and it evaporated when I clicked on his link (oh the irony). Well, this means you get the brief(er) version now. Which is probably better anyhow.

He may think he's disagreeing with me, but by suggesting that some Brooklynites in need of more fitness ride out to the GWB and then turn around and go home, he's SAYING THE SAME THING AS ME. Which is, for some, the big group Sunday ride is not necessarily best. I specifically said, either ride by yourself or find a group of similarly fit riders to ride with. I think chasing each other down through Brooklyn and up through Manhattan from stop light to stop light only to turn around when the roads get good, is a terrible idea, but whatever. To each his own.

Calorie expenditure when the temperature dips. At a minimum, here is one scientific fact: The body burns more calories as it involuntarily shivers to maintain internal body temperature. Another says that the body's basal metabolic rate increases in order maintain normal temperatures during extreme situations. Does this apply to extreme heat as well as the cold? Maybe. I've got to do more research on that one. But here's what I think from my personal experiences. The body has to work harder and burns calories to turn the pedals as you throw on 150 layers of spandex, put on your 25mm kevlar belted training tires. I get tired just trying to reach in my jersey pocket with all my layers and gloves to grab a bar. I simply get hungrier on long cold rides (I also only eat Pound Cake during the winter). Bottom line, grab an extra bar for your next ride. If you need it, you'll be glad you have it. If you don't, BFD. Take it out with you next time.

To answer JP's question, "What does LSD train?"

From the USA Cycling Level 3 coaching manual:

"Aerobic training constitutes the bulk of any athletes training time and constitutes the fitness base. The goal of aerobic (endurance) training is to increase the body's capacity to use oxygen. Early in an athlete's career, training at this intensity will yield improvements in fitness especially if the athlete starts with a very low fitness level. And example of a workout at this intensity would be long, steady ride of 1 to 3 hours in duration at a low intensity. Aerobic training is providing some overload to the body. At this intensity, conversation should be possible." (p. 208)

And here's a statement that my coach would agree with (my coach by the way is one of the few guys who runs all the elite level coach seminars for USA Cycling) but since I'm not going to bother him for a quote to argue the point that is reedonkulous as "What does LSD train?" I'll crib this from Runner's World where the subject of the 10 mile run is being discussed. The 10-mile run, fyi, is sort of the runner's equivalent to our LSD rides. There's a little physiology lesson in here too that's pretty much unarguable fact (although I'm sure JP will find a way.)

Bob Williams, director of running at the Sports Lab Training Center in Beaverton, Oregon:

"It gives you a king-sized bed: "When you spend more time on your feet doing 10-milers, you build more capillary beds. Capillaries are the smallest blood vessels in your legs, and during 10-milers, you literally grow them like tree branches. More capillaries means that your heart can deliver more energy-producing oxygen directly to the leg muscles during a run." (http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-393-394--11854-0,00.html)

And even if you look at JP's cited article, there's a very important point that Overton makes while discussing the topic of Tempo training:

"Now it would be really easy to take this recommendation out of context because it is based on several assumptions. First would be that you’ve already put in plenty of level 2 aerobic endurance training." (Line 1, Not So Fast Buckaroo)

And here another thing to consider. Even if you decide to subscribe to JP's "No LSD" philosophy, and tempo becomes your base...then you have to ask yourself is JP's version of tempo, my tempo pace? So if proper training is all about exposing yourself to varying efforts, stress, recovery and adaptation, the question becomes, are you getting the appropriate amount of stress for YOU.

I've been on plenty of rides where I'm sure JP has been comfortably riding tempo, when I've been in sub-threshold/ threshold range. Sometimes I whine about it, sometimes I go along for the ride because that's a choice I've made. I've decided on that day, that riding with a buddy or a group is what I want/need to do. Sometimes it's the right thing for my body physiologically speaking, sometimes it's the wrong thing, but I've made the choice knowing what I'm doing. For better or worse.

IMHO, for those long rides, it is very important to take into consideration perceived tiredness and recovery time needed. These two elements should help one adjust the intensity and duration. One has to find out when a long ride gets too long and counterproductive.

i think the issue hinges on the amount of training time you are putting in. 20 hour training weeks, doing some lsd is a good mix. 6 hours a week? go short, go hard. devoting half your training time to tickling the pedals over is wasting your time. 2x20, 5x6, tabatas, sst. etc.

If you have only 6 hours a week to train, my advice is to do whatever you can to find another 3 hours. Then you can have a longish ride. Maybe you don't have enough time to ride outside. But maybe you can train inside. Moreover, short training sessions on a trainer or indoor cycle do count more than outside rides of the same duration. Thus, even if you have just 45', they can be useful. Use them for some specific training.

Hey team,

For those of you not racing this weekend, I'd like to invite you to join me for a ride starting on Saturday at 9am on the Jersey side of the GWB heading up to Rockland Lake and back again.

I'm shutting down the race engine from cross season, so I'm not particularly interested in hammering up the usual climbs, but won't throw a hissy fit if you feel like it (as long as you allow for a regroup). Pace will be slow in the 7mph(climbs)-20mph(9W) neighborhood, and we'll be sticking to very familiar roads, so if time is short, or someone's not feeling good, it will be easy to turn back and head home.

Also, depending on who shows, we can mix up the ride as the group sees fit. I'm feeling pretty chill about the nature of this ride.

-Marc Bertucco

I think all are missing my point about riding as a group.

As I wrote earlier, the race season starts in March. We're in December now. Once the race season begins, it is even harder to get people to ride together. Between now and the first weekend of March is something like 12-14 weekends away. Most of us spend most of our winter time riding solo, or if we're riding with a group, in very short, controlled conditions. We do not go on training camps in warm locales. These 12-14 weekends are the time people have to get together to train with their 'mates. Of the 12-14, figure one day each weekend, so that's 12 chances at most. It shouldn't matter if it's slightly too hard or slightly too easy or not exactly what your coach ordered.

When you pick up your number for a race, you don't write down your VO2 max, your power at threshold, and are given a placing. You actually have to race your bike. And how well you do isn't defined by your VO2 or your max 5 second wattage. Racing is about many things, an important component of which has to do with riding around others.

The practice of riding with others is a skill that is worth more than a few watts. Do not underestimate this. Most of us could ride closer in pacelines, most of us could be better at modulating our efforts and these are skills you can't practice riding solo. The time spent riding with your 'mates is a way to get to know them or know them better. Training is many things. You have six days a week to worry about heart rate and power.

Think of the group ride as a weekly scrimmage, or practice test. The ride will give you a mix of challenges, different intensities, skill requirements. It gives you real-world practice of the skills you need to race well and real-time feedback on how your fitness is progressing or regressing. So you get to sharpen your skills while socializing and having fun.

If the ride is too hard one week, make your saturday easier the next. If it's too easy, make your Saturday harder or add some miles to your Sunday ride.

Figuring out a way to ride harder or easier within a group ride is also a skill and one that can come in handy during races. Experiment with gearing, timing your pulls, learning when you can trail off a tiny bit and so on. Get better at eating and drinking.

Who is going from Brooklyn?
I'd like to meet at the Brooklyn Bridge if I am going.
BTW, there is at least a 5 min rule for waiting, especially for the person who called the meetup at the Brooklyn Bridge.
I would aim for the BB at 8am if I am going.
I'll know later.

So, who is in?

Eric

I wish I could go, but only have time to spin around Prospect Park a half-dozen times or so.

regrets,
Norm

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: normanzo</cite>I wish I could go, but only have time to spin around Prospect Park a half-dozen times or so.

regrets,
Norm</blockquote>

me too, and will probably be doing that (spinning around Prospect) a bit later in the day (1ish), will post here to see if anyone wants to join (or you can text me at 718-810-3295)

FYI

QUOTING: select "format comments as HTML"

then it looks pretty

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: WilliamDC</cite>FYI

QUOTING: select "format comments as HTML"

then it looks pretty</blockquote>

eh? under Forum Preferences? where is this mystical "format comments" button... you're still sore about Mattio's pop quiz earlier, aren't you?

Posted By: billcarey

Posted By: WilliamDCFYI

QUOTING: select "format comments as HTML"

then it looks pretty

eh? under Forum Preferences? where is this mystical "format comments" button... you're still sore about Mattio's pop quiz earlier, aren't you?

you were SO observant then (all spotting the reflection of Hoy's teammates in his shiny carbon disk)

now . . . less so

"format comments as text/html" is directly below the "enter your comments" box below

Ryan,
I decided to get outside one day. I want to ride long at least once this year.
E

Hey Club,

Fresh of a great Saturday group ride (feeling invigorated, not tired...perfect for this time of year!) where the Brooklyn bunch stopped in Piermont for coffee, but I toodled along for a pleasant ride on the low path around Rockland lake (wow, swans!), and back home, taking in some gentle Piermont trails before jumping back on 9W.

Anyway, I'd like to get out again on Sunday for another 3-4 hours of easy-breezy riding. I'm no master of the inland Jersey roads, but after like 8 or so years of riding with JP, I think I'll poke around there and suspect I'll get a little lost, but not too bad.

Same deal as yesterday (except I'll try to show up on time), meet at 9am on the Jersey side of the GWB.

-Marc Bertucco

East vs West (or why we suck at out-of-town races)

Compare typical training ride for the Berkeley Bicycle Club
http://www.mapmyride.com/route/us/ca/berkeley/633129148797865322

with ours
http://www.mapmyride.com/route/us/ny/new%20york/753129148900063599

Be sure to click the check-box labeled "Show Elevation".
Plus, the views are much nicer in the Bay Area.

I'm gonna be there. Who else is in?

JP

Gonna try. Haven't ridden since Staten cx. Been sick the entire time. But if it's a slower base ride, I should be ok.

Would anyone else like more 'structure' around the group ride ?
At the moment I tend to ride with the local Brooklyn 'prospect peloton' group ride, for the simle reason that they meet at the same place at the same time every every Saturday and ride for a distance and pace that is pretty similar each week. This makes planning the rest of my week's training, and more importantly (for maintaining matrimonial harmony) the remainder of the weekend, a lot easier.
At minimum just knowing about the club ride earlier would be great, but going beyond that it should be possible to have a calendar of the next 4-6 weeks of rides with distance, pace, coffee stop, etc. The club I rode with in the UK put such a calendar on their homepage (of course when I rode with them it was before the advent of homepages so they used parchment scroll to achieve the same thing).

I know Eric Robertson wants to create a calendar like that, which is to say - that's a good idea that a bunch of people share and the board will probably be working on it soon.

ianellis and all,

Once they get going, usually after the holidays come and go...I have found the chilly weather Sunday Kissena rides that leave from the Jersey side of the GWB fairly regular and consistent. Same route, same sprint points, same ride time. Of course weather always is a factor, but JP, David Stokes, myself and a few others have been out riding in some ridiculous conditions over the years (for years I thought Stokes only rode in bad weather because I never saw him riding on sunny pleasant days).

While I can appreciate the value of a calendar, and posting it on the website, what more do you need to know than, every Sunday, at 9am, a bunch of us yahoos go out and ride to the Nyack-ish region...sprinting along the way at dangerous points in the road for good measure?

I personally cannot commit to attending/leading all those rides 4-6 weeks in advance (but I can pretty much guarantee I'll be on at least half of those rides in any given period during the off-season), because I'm just not a scheduler in that way, but...just thinking out loud here...if you have all your ducks in a row like that, you might be a great person to be the regular ride captain of the Sunday ride?

As far as incorporating other kinds of "structure" into the group ride...I'm not exactly sure what kind of structure you are looking for but...I think you have to be careful that the more structured you make it, you are necessarily limiting its value to a more select group of riders. And then that's a totally diff't kind of group ride. Which is not a bad thing. It's just a diff't thing.

I mean, not to sound too repetitive, but I've been doing the Sunday rides for years and other than finally giving up the ghost on a descent on a nasty piece of road that would jar your fillings loose on full-suspension MTB, the route has remained the same. The sprints and KOMs haven't moved much either--if at all.

I'm sure JP has years of power data from these rides and can give you some average figures (including the most important, when am I going to get back to the bridge time) to help you better plan your training and life around these rides.

All this said, do I know if there is going to be a "club" ride this Sunday? Actually, I don't know for sure. And sometimes those rides start have been known to start at 8am and sometimes we don't get moving until after 9 if we're waiting for latecomers (notably myself...BAD Marc!). So I will have to "half concede" to your point about making the ride a smidge more regular, scheduling and posting to the website.

BUT what I do know, is that if YOU want there to be a 3 hour ride, with 2 hot spot sprints and one KOM this Sunday and the next 6 Sunday's after that, send out an email, post it on the forum and you will almost certainly have company on all of those days!

Marc

I'm more than willing to put up a post and get a group ride going. What I wanted to avoid though was attempting such a thing only discover that I was competing against some long-standing regular ride that was unbeknownst to me. And .. that is exactly what would have happened had you not informed me about this Sunday ride.

With regards to 'structure': bad choice of words on my part. What I really meant was clear, concise, timely communication about group rides so that all the club were aware of what was available and when.

To my knowledge the only ride that happens with metronomic reliability is the Friday 11am CP ride, so I'll reiterate that I think better communication about weekend rides would be beneficial to the club membership.

OK, so let's make a thread called something like Club Rides that we can post repeatedly to. JP can use this for his Friday ride as well. Like Marc, I have trouble committing in advance, but I'll almost always come out at least once per weekend if a ride has been advertised (even if the weather isn't awful). I think a calendar may be a little too rigid for this group, but you are welcome to prove me wrong.
David

Posted By: dstokesOK, so let's make a thread called something like Club Rides

May I make a suggestion of creating Categories for things like "for sale" or "club rides" rather than a single thread? Finding a long-lived thread will become difficult once there are several thousand posts in each category. Thoughts?

That's true...JP's Friday ride is insanely reliable and regular. It's good that we're going back and forth a bit on this topic because "group ride season" is fast upon us. I'm glad we can hammer out some ideas and thoughts on the forum to help make sure we're fit, flying and having fun come this spring!

Okay, I'm in. Now you all are in TROUBLE. HAHAHAHA.
General topics should be divided and ten subdivided on specificity.
Other subjects that have end dates (ie items for sale, events like certain rides) need to run their course and end. I read a lot of forums for my work and the topic list gets very specific,
Now on to responding to the "group ride" topic of this thread.
I agree with parts of Marc and JP's but, of course, I have another take. My feeling has always been that most of us do not train at the intensity level that is needed to race at higher levels. I'm not trying to slag anyone's efforts or abilities. We only have the tools, time, and talent (bad word but you know what I mean) that we have. The point is to get the most out of them. Without going into detail here and now-I'll leave that for a future long winded post-the vast majority of riders round these parts could use a dose of harder training.
Marc states
"when you get home from one of these rides, you feel as though you might be better off on your couch for 3 days straight in a state of semi-consciousness, rather than continue to function in the land of the living...that's probably a sign that you over-did-it. Don't get me wrong roadies, there is a time and place for this kind of ride. But, DECEMBER is not it."
Well that depends. If you actually spend the 3 days off then that's bad. If you carry on with your balanced plan and are coming off a nice Fall or are already in condition as far as endurance then death marches in December are swell. Someone wrote somewhere that races in July are won in December. Want to be racing in April instead of trying to just sit in and survive? December and January should be hard. Trying to race in March and April while doing intense training efforts at the same time does not allow for recovery. Ride yourself into the ground in December and you've got all the time in the world to recover. More specifics later. No, really, I'll actually post something.
The key is evaluating where and what you are. As far as TRAINING I haven't done any LSD rides in over a year. I've done them but only as social events. I just ride for the hell of it a lot. Even after a very, very easy Fall starting the day after Hillier Than Thou on Sept 19, I have no problem hopping on the bike and riding 80 miles alone. I have a fitness base. I can go straight into an intense training plan. If you are still on the upswing and 100km is putting you out then you have to build that fitness base. Group rides are great BUT you have to use the time on other days to keep up the work with shorter weekday efforts so that you are not just riding LSD on weekends and nothing else. Of course if you can ride some distance during the week it's even better.
For anyone considering what they need to do, how to do it, and when, the I suggest hitting the sat or sunday rides as they come up and try to evaluate where you are and get input from other Kissenas. Bother them with questions. Have honest details about your ability, strengths and weaknesses. Within this club are a TON of years of cycling experience both racing and training. I can speak for myself and say that I have read so much training info that it's silly. I have also had enough time to pretty much everything wrong as well as get some things right. That probably goes for a bunch of other club members.
Most important right now is that you are on the bike. The season in NYC starts in less than 90 days.

I made this discussion sticky so it's easy to find. Also edited (or you could say commandeered) the subject a bit.

Hint: the bottom "Bottom of Page" link in the upper right corner of discussions is handy when these start to get long.

It's official, I'm going to start a thread entitled:

"Puppies and kittens are cute" and then wait for JP and Keith to argue with me liberally using phrases like, "well actually" and "it depends."

In this latest response, Keith quotes ME saying, "when you get home from one of these rides, you feel as though you might be better off on your couch for 3 days straight in a state of semi-consciousness, rather than continue to function in the land of the living...that's probably a sign that you over-did-it. Don't get me wrong roadies, there is a time and place for this kind of ride. But, DECEMBER is not it."

To which HE responds, "Well that depends. If you actually spend the 3 days off then that's bad. If you carry on with your balanced plan and are coming off a nice Fall or are already in condition as far as endurance then death marches in December are swell."

Which, if you break it down, he's actually agreeing with me. He says, "if you...are already in condition as far as endurance." I never said, "if you get home from one of these rides, you feel great and want to hit the road the next day for a strong 2 hour ride."

So IF you have a good foundation already, IF lots and lots of capillaries extending throughout your muscles, and IF your aerobic foundation is healthier than an ancient earthquake-proof Inca wall, then let the death marches begin. Go for it. March straight into the heart of darkness.

Keith is right on when he quotes someone saying that races in July are won in December. Nowhere did I suggest sitting on your asses (like I currently am) in December was a good idea. Keith reiterates a point I made in my very first post, when he says, "The key is evaluating where and what you are." I said, "The key to better managing the group ride is to first know what your personal training objective is for the day/week/cycle and make smart choices." And then I had a section entitled, "Know what's coming" in reference to knowing at what fitness level you are currently are and what level you will need to be in the upcoming road racing season.

Andreas Kloden was recently quoted speaking about his own personal needs and goals and those of his teammates during a warm-weather training camp:

“If you have a chance and the weather is like this, you have to ride for five hours,” Klöden said to Cyclingnews. “I wouldn’t get on the bike for two and a half hours. I know what I need so this week is important as I have good weather here.”

So there you have it. There are full-on professionals under the direction of Bruyneel and his maestros doing 2.5 hour rides only. And Kloden thinks they are idiots. And I might agree. Who knows, I got lost on an LSD ride the other day and ended up doing 6 hours, and was bonked and toast by the end of it. But...

Look, I get it, everyone is at a different place fitness and cycle wise. And no single email is going to cover us all. I mean, I'm in the middle of pretty specific Tempo and LT work, but that's me, that's where I'm at. The original point of my original post was to suggest a way for the broadest swath of people reading these things to think about what is a staple of most racing cyclists. And that is the winter group ride.

Let me quote a more authoritative source on the matter. USA Cycling says:

"General Preparation Period (December-January)
The primary objective of the general preparation period is aerobic conditioning and strength development. The workouts establish a solid foundation for the upcoming year and might include cross training. The volume of training is relatively low (relative to other training periods) as is the intensity. The volume should be gradually increased over the preparation period. The general preparation period is a good time to work on skill development." (p. 206-207)

Again, my winter training tips are just that. Tips. They are not training plans. They will not be right for everyone at all times. But I won't send out information, unless they have some pretty solid science/reasoning behind them.