Jun 29, 2012 at 06:08 PM
i swing all ways. even on vine into a lake!
Pawling Mountain RR
Jul 03, 2012 at 07:52 PM
Are there any rides going up there still? Im thinking about getting on board the new cat 5 field that just opened up.
Jul 04, 2012 at 01:59 AM
Hi Ashley - I'm full-up with Aly and Vlad...not sure who else might be driving up.
Jul 04, 2012 at 08:32 PM
I'm also looking for a day-of ride. Train doesn't arrive early enough. If I can't get it, I'm happy to transfer my reg to someone else who's wanting in, since it's full. Otherwise, I'll just try to get a refund and do the L&C on Saturday.
Jul 05, 2012 at 02:30 PM
Cat 4 homies - on Sunday can we plan to meet at 8.45 (or earlier) near the start/finish to talk strategy? It'd be good to get a sense of people's goals, sense of their fitness, how we can work together...
From our squad, I know all three Jeffs will potentially be good for the finish and Adam and David have been looking strong. I haven't seen Chris, Norm or Todd much lately - I suspect that they've been secretly training together and are ready to unleash the beast on those hills. I plan to make the initial selection on that first beastly climb and look for a breakaway opportunity on the second lap (not easy), but also be prepared for it to come down to a sprint finish. If there is anyone who feels inclined to lead out in that eventuality, I would be most grateful because my sprint sucks (I have been working on it).
I expect the competition to be stiffer this year than last year, what with the "championship" on the line, but a bigger field also means more splits.
Thoughts? (not just from 4's)
From our squad, I know all three Jeffs will potentially be good for the finish and Adam and David have been looking strong. I haven't seen Chris, Norm or Todd much lately - I suspect that they've been secretly training together and are ready to unleash the beast on those hills. I plan to make the initial selection on that first beastly climb and look for a breakaway opportunity on the second lap (not easy), but also be prepared for it to come down to a sprint finish. If there is anyone who feels inclined to lead out in that eventuality, I would be most grateful because my sprint sucks (I have been working on it).
I expect the competition to be stiffer this year than last year, what with the "championship" on the line, but a bigger field also means more splits.
Thoughts? (not just from 4's)
Jul 05, 2012 at 02:32 PM
Not neglecting Patrick either - possibly the most reliable, wisest (and wise-ass-est) member of the crew. I think he'd be good to boss us around during the race.
Jul 05, 2012 at 03:10 PM
Alright, just weaseled a ride.
My plan, other than to not get dropped too badly on the big climb, is
that if I'm near the front going over it the second time, to bomb the
descent. Last year I found I could corner on the descent much better
than everyone else in our chase group and Ragot/Keith et al have advised
me to do that. I kept slowing b/c I need the help of the the group's
work to try and catch the leaders, but they said it saves energy just to
bomb the corners and make others chase back up to you. I got to within
30 seconds but then waited like an idiot b/c I knew I wouldn't make it
on my own. Which we didn't anyway... Basically, I'm a big fat sucky
Nibali.
Anyway, if I'm somehow miraculously there after the highway incline and
the double-kicker after the turn-off, I'll gladly drag any of you guys
home across the line. We can pretty much fly from there and it'll be
hard for people to catch back on b/c you can't see around the twists as
well to tell how far ahead people are. Should be able to at least get a
couple of guys in the top 10 easy.
My plan, other than to not get dropped too badly on the big climb, is
that if I'm near the front going over it the second time, to bomb the
descent. Last year I found I could corner on the descent much better
than everyone else in our chase group and Ragot/Keith et al have advised
me to do that. I kept slowing b/c I need the help of the the group's
work to try and catch the leaders, but they said it saves energy just to
bomb the corners and make others chase back up to you. I got to within
30 seconds but then waited like an idiot b/c I knew I wouldn't make it
on my own. Which we didn't anyway... Basically, I'm a big fat sucky
Nibali.
Anyway, if I'm somehow miraculously there after the highway incline and
the double-kicker after the turn-off, I'll gladly drag any of you guys
home across the line. We can pretty much fly from there and it'll be
hard for people to catch back on b/c you can't see around the twists as
well to tell how far ahead people are. Should be able to at least get a
couple of guys in the top 10 easy.
Jul 05, 2012 at 07:40 PM
Cat 4's! Sounds like there's a nomination to have Patrick as the on-road captain.
Tito and the "Three Jeff's" all seem to have aspirations for this one. Adam, you too? I'd assume Norm does as well given his fondness for the roads that go up.
I got a lot of climbing in over the last week - two 2,000-foot days and one 4,000-foot day up in the Blue Ridge - so I'm feeling more ready for the hills than usual (though, whether that translates to race pace is another matter altogether.)
If by some miracle I am around, I'll be game to help on the final lead out for any of the protected riders. Is there anything to be gained by having someone get out front early and set a high tempo before the first climb to thin out the field?
Jul 05, 2012 at 08:40 PM
I'm going to chuck my hat in the ring and say that I am looking to go for this one.
This is a great race and it's fun for all who enter. Even if you get dropped, it's still a great place to test yourself and as this is not a standard sit in until the end affair, I believe the placings count. That is to say, I think in this race coming 8th is better than 12th, which in turn is better than 16th, which is better than 20th etc. Hence, in that sense it's kind of like a TT in that your placing will give you a relatively good idea as to how you will stack up in an NY out-of town race.
Having said that, it anyone is not interested in that and has a particularly altruistic feeling going into this one, there are two ways to do damage.
1) At the start/finish (after 1 lap) hit the front on the rollers. This will prevent any who were dropped on the first lap getting back on, keeping the field small for the final lap action.
2) Get on the front on the first ascent on either lap and bang out a ridiculous tempo to split the field. However, I would say that anyone who is capable of going long enough and hard enough to make this happen should have eyes on the race itself and not wast themselves doing this.
Those are my thoughts. Any volunteers are of course welcome but I fell that this race does kind of lend itself to every man putting his best effort in in order to get the best result attainable.
Jul 06, 2012 at 12:11 PM
From all the chatter, and the posts, it's clear to me that many of you have this race down as an A-priority event. Also, talking with a few of you over the last few weeks about the general state of the union of the Cat 4s, and the nature of this course (attrition-y), it seems to me, that this would be a good time for you guys to let the course and the other riders thin the herd, and make your moves later in the race. Or not. Do your own thing.
What I'm trying to say, is that here we are in July, and I don't want guys to be upset because they haven't been able to take their own shots at glory because they are on "early break" or "hard tempo" duty when they really want to be riding in the top 10, waiting to launch their blistering attack to rocket them to the podium.
Unlike PP, I think the Pawling course and if you let them, the other riders will whittle this field down to the best without having to send, I don't know, Norm, to light it up at the front in between the fireworks of the climbs. Because, you don't want to waste energy dropping marginal/borderline guys on the flats, when those dudes will likely get dropped all on their own on the climbs anyway.
I remember offering similar advice pre-Battenkill when guys were quasi-obsessing about who was going to attack where and when and how often. Let the race come to you a bit folks. Be wise about where you serve up your watts. There will be plenty of guys on other teams who are just waiting to rage at every opportunity.
If you are coming into the closing miles, the group is smallish and we've got decent numbers in the field, it would probably be good to collect yourselves and try to figure out something on the fly. Or not. Maybe this is an "everyone for himself" race? The only reason I suggest this, because I personally think team racing is more fun and rewarding, is that I want everyone on the club, coming up on Mid-July, to feel like they've had a fair shot at their A-priority race. And on a course like this, it might be the perfect race to let Darwin do his thing.
What I'm trying to say, is that here we are in July, and I don't want guys to be upset because they haven't been able to take their own shots at glory because they are on "early break" or "hard tempo" duty when they really want to be riding in the top 10, waiting to launch their blistering attack to rocket them to the podium.
Unlike PP, I think the Pawling course and if you let them, the other riders will whittle this field down to the best without having to send, I don't know, Norm, to light it up at the front in between the fireworks of the climbs. Because, you don't want to waste energy dropping marginal/borderline guys on the flats, when those dudes will likely get dropped all on their own on the climbs anyway.
I remember offering similar advice pre-Battenkill when guys were quasi-obsessing about who was going to attack where and when and how often. Let the race come to you a bit folks. Be wise about where you serve up your watts. There will be plenty of guys on other teams who are just waiting to rage at every opportunity.
If you are coming into the closing miles, the group is smallish and we've got decent numbers in the field, it would probably be good to collect yourselves and try to figure out something on the fly. Or not. Maybe this is an "everyone for himself" race? The only reason I suggest this, because I personally think team racing is more fun and rewarding, is that I want everyone on the club, coming up on Mid-July, to feel like they've had a fair shot at their A-priority race. And on a course like this, it might be the perfect race to let Darwin do his thing.
Jul 06, 2012 at 12:47 PM
^ I think that is more or less going to be the cat 3 game plan. Let the herd thin out for 45 miles, and then take our cracks.
Jul 06, 2012 at 02:23 PM
exactly
we are going to more or less chill for the first two laps, maybe send one of our Ox riders in a good break on the second laps, but definitely DEFINITELY throw down hard on the last two climbs and make everyone freak out.
i practiced the "last ramp of the last climb to the finish" effort twice last sunday and i'm feeling good and optimistic.
more strategy ideas later.
Jul 06, 2012 at 02:59 PM
Good luck, Kissenas! Try to remember to zip your jerseys as you cross the finish line in the lead 
Jul 06, 2012 at 05:30 PM
I was mulling this over this morning on my commute - but Marc spoke my mind exactly. I have nothing to add that would not be repetitive.
Jul 06, 2012 at 11:05 PM
Ditto on Marc's comments.
Anyone have someone in the feed zone who can provide bottles to Kissenas in the 4s? It would be MUCH appreciated
Jul 06, 2012 at 11:13 PM
YES, actually - my wife Grace will be spectating and I was hoping someone could coach her through a water hand-up. Norm, are you racing? Is there anyone else who could guide Grace so that I don't have to think about it Sunday morning?
Jul 06, 2012 at 11:13 PM
I'll be there early and should be able to fulfill some feed zone duties.
Jul 07, 2012 at 03:27 PM
Cat 3 crew!
Tomorrow, we have Vlad, Mike, Vollbach, Ryan and myself. Joe isn't racing, but might come to feed us. Either way, my dad will be there to feed us.
I'll put this right out there: I think I can win with your help. Ryan and I can climb well, Dave and Mike can climb almost as well and move on the flats, Vlad can destroy the flats. If we work together, we have a great shot at bringing home the jersey.
Here's what I propose for the race:
Lap 1: we stay near the front and chill. we do not attack and, unless something great goes, we do not chase. last year, we blew our roleurs (Eric and Perlberg) on the first lap and were worse for it the rest of the race. Everyone hit the first big climb on the front and survive.
Lap 2: Mike, Dave, Vlad, this is where you guys start following wheels, going with promising moves and taking the pressure off the rest of the Kissenas. Ryan and I chill near the front and conserve energy. If there are no breaks, the aforementioned 3 should try to push the pace over the crest of the big climb, or push it on the second, shallow climb.
Lap 3: Fireworks. I want to attack on the last steep ramp of the last climb. If I bring a few dudes along, that's great. If not, I've practiced the final effort many times and I'll try to bring it in alone if the gap is good enough. What I'll need, working backwards:
- someone to drill the beginning fo the final climb. hopefully this is Ryan. bring me to the front with a lot of speed and drop me off a quarter of the way up the final ramp. here's the key: if whoever does this can also stay with any chasing groups over the top and block for me, my chances will go up exponentially.
- if we have the legs/men, someone to drill the second-to-last climb, a long, shallow drag up a hot straight highway. it's about a mile. if someone can bring Ryan and I to the front and stretch out the pack, that will put us in really good shape.
- If we have the legs/men: someone to drill the descent off the big climb (Mike, Dave?) hopefully, this starts at the crest of the big climb, though that early may be a tall order.
- Big climb, 3d lap: I need to stay at the front and this may require help/encouragement. Ryan, if you can stick with me on the the last time over the big hill and set pace for me, that would help a lot.
What we've learned the hard way in past races is that we have to create a game plan and stick to it, i.e. not let other riders dictate our actions and not get excited/panic when people attack strongly.
In the race: TALK TALK TALK! anytime you're near a teammate, say hi, ask how they're doing, just let them know that you're there and that we're in this together. Whoever's near me at the end, tell me to fucking destroy these people. I like being ordered around!
A few riders to watch for tomorrow:
Jul 07, 2012 at 03:30 PM
- chris king, Black Tie Sports/Spine
- daniel caridi, black tie sports/spine
- Al Barouh, BH
- Alvin Poblacion, BH
- Stefano Zanotti, Createx - Benidorm - Eatern Block
- James Jennings, Paceli
- Nick Van Winkle, Hudson Furniture
- Steven Persak, Liberty Cycle
Jul 07, 2012 at 04:01 PM
The trick with Pawling is to not let any of the bigger guys be in it at the end.
WIlliam, your plan for laps 1 and 2 sound spot on. A thought though for lap 3: it seems likely that the pace will naturally be high enough on the highway drag the last time up that it would be hard for me to accelerate it without saying goodbye after.
Whereas, if we can BOTH get onto the final descent and there are two of us, that is also a very nice advantage because I could attack then, which puts you in very good shape.
Anyway, its hard for me to know what to expect having not yet done a race like this in the 3s. That said, I raced most of these guys when they were 4s and was always right there. So I'm confident that I can make a big impact.
Oh, add to the watch list:
Richard Scudney from Asphalt Green (especially him)
Warren St. John from BH
Harry Zernike and Aleksy Zakarhov from FGX
Jul 07, 2012 at 05:18 PM
I feel like someone should be there to counter WDC's move if it's brought back. That is where I would put Dave V or Ryan. Or hell any Kissena that's there.
Jul 07, 2012 at 05:52 PM
Roger on that.
I'm hoping Ryan or whoever can give me a bit of a lead out
Approaching the final kicker, but definitely leave enough in the tank to follow any chase groups.
I'm hoping Ryan or whoever can give me a bit of a lead out
Approaching the final kicker, but definitely leave enough in the tank to follow any chase groups.
Jul 07, 2012 at 07:56 PM
Well the baseline plan for laps 1 and 2 is clear. Don't do shit. Then we'll start talking on the road.
If the race hasn't been hard by lap 3 and there are a lot of guys left, I will be more inclined to go to work earlier on. Again, the risk at Pawling is not going hard enough to shake the bigger guys who will out muscle you in a sprint if they make it - essentially, guys like Mike!
So while we are being semi-conservative, we also want to make sure the big guys don't make it.
I do think if Mike makes it over the top of the last climb with us, we should go to work for him.
Jul 07, 2012 at 08:05 PM
I'm mostly going to try to hang on for laps 1 and 2. Start the climbs near the front, drift back, save energy. I'm a bit low of fitness and riding, but strong on pop. My breakaway fitness is not the best after a ton of work (like real work, not on the bike) the last few
weeks, but my sub 1 minute power, and specifically sub 20 second power
is getting higher and higher.
Getting over the first big hill on the 3rd lap is going to be absolute torture for me, but I will do it. The 2nd and 3rd hills are no problem for me.
If there is a bigish group at the end I think I can win it. Seriously. I don't fatigue much @ 60 miles, do well in the heat, and can put out 1000+ watts for 15 seconds at the end of a long day.
I think William and Ryan can win it from smaller groups that get away on the climbs and fool the other fat guys like me. If that happens, I'm happy to block and generally get in the way. The move on the final climb William pointed out is his ticket to the state champion jersey. I think we need to set him up for that move as best we can if he really wants the win. That means keeping him sheltered and out of the wind at all times. William, it also means you have to trust that all moves are coming back and you don't stick you head in the wind.
I haven't ridden with Dave enough to know his strengths / weaknesses but he is more than welcome to carry my bottles
Honestly, from what I've seen, Dave should be looking to counterattack when the good moves get brought back in.
Vlad has a big motor. My feeling is we should keep him near the front on the lap 2 and let him follow moves up to promising breakaways, but with specific instructions to only work enough to stay in the break but not too much to get himself dropped. On lap 3 he is slugging it out along with the rest of us.
WDC, frankly, I think we don't need to do any pushing the pace at any time during this race. Let the attrition happen naturally, and the capitalize on it. With a small squad, we need to be smart. There will be plenty of hammerheads flogging themselves over the climbs in an attempt to thin the field. Let them.
I'm excited to rock it with you guys. I even cleaned my bike off.
weeks, but my sub 1 minute power, and specifically sub 20 second power
is getting higher and higher.
Getting over the first big hill on the 3rd lap is going to be absolute torture for me, but I will do it. The 2nd and 3rd hills are no problem for me.
If there is a bigish group at the end I think I can win it. Seriously. I don't fatigue much @ 60 miles, do well in the heat, and can put out 1000+ watts for 15 seconds at the end of a long day.
I think William and Ryan can win it from smaller groups that get away on the climbs and fool the other fat guys like me. If that happens, I'm happy to block and generally get in the way. The move on the final climb William pointed out is his ticket to the state champion jersey. I think we need to set him up for that move as best we can if he really wants the win. That means keeping him sheltered and out of the wind at all times. William, it also means you have to trust that all moves are coming back and you don't stick you head in the wind.
I haven't ridden with Dave enough to know his strengths / weaknesses but he is more than welcome to carry my bottles
Honestly, from what I've seen, Dave should be looking to counterattack when the good moves get brought back in. Vlad has a big motor. My feeling is we should keep him near the front on the lap 2 and let him follow moves up to promising breakaways, but with specific instructions to only work enough to stay in the break but not too much to get himself dropped. On lap 3 he is slugging it out along with the rest of us.
WDC, frankly, I think we don't need to do any pushing the pace at any time during this race. Let the attrition happen naturally, and the capitalize on it. With a small squad, we need to be smart. There will be plenty of hammerheads flogging themselves over the climbs in an attempt to thin the field. Let them.
I'm excited to rock it with you guys. I even cleaned my bike off.
Jul 07, 2012 at 09:14 PM
Cat 3's - I know at least a couple of us 4's will be hanging around after our race. Happy to man the feed zone if you need extra hands to pass out bottles.
Jul 07, 2012 at 09:39 PM
Cat 3's - I know at least a couple of us 4's will be hanging around after our race. Happy to man the feed zone if you need extra hands to pass out bottles.If I am off the back, please hand me a burrito or cheeseburger.
Jul 08, 2012 at 07:23 PM
Ok. I don't have any great report. I flatted on the first hill as I was about 5th wheel from the front hanging with the pace.
What I did want to say was that after I sat up and put my hand up for neutral wheel support, Whitey passed me by and immediately stooped and asked me what I needed. I told him a front wheel and without hesitation he yanked his off, gave it to me to put on and gave me a push up the hill. I did my damnedest to catch back on but after a spirited chase I couldn't do it. I hooked up with a bunch of guys (including Patrick and eventually Owens) who were fairly organized and we could see the pack on the highway, but alas no.
I was totally amazed that after hosting Adam and Laura at his place last night and getting up a the crack of dawn to get to the race, seven miles into the race Jeff gave up any chances for himself to help out a teammate. I mentioned this to a Velocity guy who I rode in with and he was quite impressed.
Makes me proud to be part of Kissena. I hope I can return the favor somehow in the future.
What I did want to say was that after I sat up and put my hand up for neutral wheel support, Whitey passed me by and immediately stooped and asked me what I needed. I told him a front wheel and without hesitation he yanked his off, gave it to me to put on and gave me a push up the hill. I did my damnedest to catch back on but after a spirited chase I couldn't do it. I hooked up with a bunch of guys (including Patrick and eventually Owens) who were fairly organized and we could see the pack on the highway, but alas no.
I was totally amazed that after hosting Adam and Laura at his place last night and getting up a the crack of dawn to get to the race, seven miles into the race Jeff gave up any chances for himself to help out a teammate. I mentioned this to a Velocity guy who I rode in with and he was quite impressed.
Makes me proud to be part of Kissena. I hope I can return the favor somehow in the future.
Jul 08, 2012 at 07:56 PM
I appreciate the kind words, Jeff. One reason I gave away the wheel was that I began sliding backward as soon as someone with legs squeezed through to the front and pushed the pace, about halfway up the climb. When it became clear my legs were not responding, Condon hollered a profanity (no, not the "c word") and pulled off to the side right in front of me. I knew he had a legit shot at placing, so pulling off was honestly just a race reaction like any other.
The change was pretty quick, but I really think we could have gone maybe ten seconds faster if we were a bit more sure of what we were doing.
I finished out the lap hard and pulled off.
Anyway, I would also like to point out that Jules lent FOUR wheels for this race, so there!
The change was pretty quick, but I really think we could have gone maybe ten seconds faster if we were a bit more sure of what we were doing.
I finished out the lap hard and pulled off.
Anyway, I would also like to point out that Jules lent FOUR wheels for this race, so there!
Jul 08, 2012 at 08:28 PM
^pro steez
A brief RR, because I'm still in a funk over my finish.
I basically tried to follow the sage advice of my dude Ryan, who told me to do no work until the second climb of the second lap. I actually had his voice in my head a number of times when I was in danger of losing position or of letting a gap open. I'm discovering that in race situations, it's good for me to have someone else's face and voice be the superego telling me what to do because I won't listen to my own whiny internal monologue. Anyway...
Lap 1: Halfway up the second part of the first climb, around mile 8.5, a floppy fellow in front of me slammed into the rider next to him and toppled over. I avoided going down, but had to fully unclip and banged my forearm into some part of a bike. Limbs trembling, it took me a few tries to clip back in and then I had to chase back on the rest of the climb to reconnect with the lead group. The rest of that lap went well, and Adam, Todd and I were embedded near the front going into the second lap.
Lap 2: I don't remember the first climb so well, but we definitely shed a number of riders because when I looked back we were whittled down to maybe 20. On the descent Adam and I talked plans for the finish, and we agreed that we wanted to avoid the sprint if at all possible. The plan was for either Adam or I to attack on the second part of the climb, and the other to follow, hopefully bringing only a couple of the strongest riders with us for the descent. That didn't happen. I was hurting more than I thought, and I think I psyched myself out of attacking. If Adam had launched something I probably would've rallied, and I imagine the same would've been true for him.
It came down to a bunch sprint, and I got pipped at the line for 10th.
Mostly, I'm happy with the way I raced in general - no stupid pulling, no pointless attacks and I stayed close to the front pacing behind others the whole time. However, I'm frustrated that I didn't dig deep enough for an attack at the end, and let myself get psyched out when the going got tough. Next time, next time...
A brief RR, because I'm still in a funk over my finish.
I basically tried to follow the sage advice of my dude Ryan, who told me to do no work until the second climb of the second lap. I actually had his voice in my head a number of times when I was in danger of losing position or of letting a gap open. I'm discovering that in race situations, it's good for me to have someone else's face and voice be the superego telling me what to do because I won't listen to my own whiny internal monologue. Anyway...
Lap 1: Halfway up the second part of the first climb, around mile 8.5, a floppy fellow in front of me slammed into the rider next to him and toppled over. I avoided going down, but had to fully unclip and banged my forearm into some part of a bike. Limbs trembling, it took me a few tries to clip back in and then I had to chase back on the rest of the climb to reconnect with the lead group. The rest of that lap went well, and Adam, Todd and I were embedded near the front going into the second lap.
Lap 2: I don't remember the first climb so well, but we definitely shed a number of riders because when I looked back we were whittled down to maybe 20. On the descent Adam and I talked plans for the finish, and we agreed that we wanted to avoid the sprint if at all possible. The plan was for either Adam or I to attack on the second part of the climb, and the other to follow, hopefully bringing only a couple of the strongest riders with us for the descent. That didn't happen. I was hurting more than I thought, and I think I psyched myself out of attacking. If Adam had launched something I probably would've rallied, and I imagine the same would've been true for him.
It came down to a bunch sprint, and I got pipped at the line for 10th.
Mostly, I'm happy with the way I raced in general - no stupid pulling, no pointless attacks and I stayed close to the front pacing behind others the whole time. However, I'm frustrated that I didn't dig deep enough for an attack at the end, and let myself get psyched out when the going got tough. Next time, next time...
Jul 08, 2012 at 08:32 PM
Oh, and our buddy John Kniesley is an absolute monster - he was at the front working for almost the entire race, had a mechanical just as the sprint was winding up (I think his lockring slipped off his cassette and he couldn't shift out of his 11 cog on the rise) and STILL took 4th.
Whew.
Whew.