Kissena Forum Archive

Closed Criterium Racing Workshop

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Marc - I plan to join on Saturday. Thanks!
I don't think I have other plans so I could come to assist
@marc - I'm in 
count me in
I'm in for saturday.
Will try to make it. Red eye back from LA that morn so might get home just in time to kit up.
Will try to make it. Red eye back from LA that morn so might get home just in time to kit up.

Trooper... 

marc&eric, count me in for crit clinic. -harryB
general question: on way back fro FBF last night spoke to a CRCA fellow& he suggested that if i wanted to race in Central Park i join CRCA ie. buy a jersey&membership so that i can participate i their inter-Club races (10-12/yr)...is this kosher ie. acceptable to Kissenas? if not, is their an alternative? -harryB
@harry - if you sign up for CRCA, they will become your club and not KCC.   They do have a couple of open races in Central Park where its open to non-CRCA members to race.  The first one is June 1, the Dave Jordan central park classic.  

Having said that, if you just want a jersey...i have 5 i can give you..  

I've just re-read the rules regarding club and team membership. They are unclear. They annoyingly use the word "generally" when describing this section of the rule book. You would clearly be within the rules if say, you were going to race on the road for CRCA and on the trails for Kissena in CX or MTB races, or on the track. But I'm not sure you could, say have your "club" affiliation read CRCA and your "team" designation be Kissena and race for both CRCA or Kissena in the same discipline. I assume that CRCA licensees have licenses that read "CRCA" for club and "Siggi's" for team or whatever.

Maybe Ragot and/or other club members have a better technical reading of the rules...

As far as is it "kosher?" Honestly, I'm sort of ambivalent on the matter. I mean, I HATE the fact that CRCA has so many subteams and opens up so few of its races to non-CRCA teams. But, I understand wanting to race more in Central Park and wouldn't want to stand in the way of anyone who wants to do that.

general question: on way back fro FBF last night spoke to a CRCA fellow& he suggested that if i wanted to race in Central Park i join CRCA ie. buy a jersey&membership so that i can participate i their inter-Club races (10-12/yr)...is this kosher ie. acceptable to Kissenas? if not, is their an alternative? -harryB
CRCA is a racing club. Kissena is a racing club. Pick one. I hope you'll stick with us. 

The rulebook says no. Here is USAC's rule:

1F4. Club Membership(b)

Riders are only permitted to be a licensed member of one registered club per discipline, which is shown on the racing license.

Arguably you could be a guest rider at a race, but I can't imagine CRCA opening up like that. The exception could swallow the rule.

In order to be a member of CRCA, you have to join CRCA. Then you are a member of their racing club, not KCC. Then to race CRCA club races, you'll have to fulfill marshalling requirements and whatever other hurdles you must overcome to participate. Then you're not a member of Kissena.

In theory, you can leave and rejoin a club as often as you wish during a year and change your license to match. But know that to race a club race, you have to have that club on your license. To race for a club, you need to have that club on your license.

USAC Rule: 1F4. Club Membership
(a) Licensed riders must register with a club and USA Cycling before they are eligible to present themselves as a member of that club. This includes, but is not limited to wearing a club’s jersey or entering a race as a member of the club. My take is that you'll have to re-register from one club by leaving and rejoining each time (and assuming you're allowed to re-join) in order to wear different jerseys.
(b) Riders are only permitted to be a licensed member of one registered club per discipline, which is shown on the racing license. I think this one is clear -you're CRCA or Kissena.

Hope you'll stay.
WoW! BiG thanks for detailed analysis of USAC&KCC rules guys, NO intention to leave Kissena!!! ...just curious and very much would like to be 'able' to race in Central Park more during the high summer season...it is a very nice and challenging circuit. again 'merci bien" -h;-) ps. maybe kissena can consider some type of series challenge to the CRCA, they race Prospect all the time open to ALL would be cool to do a 'share' (my2cents)
Harry,

The KCC board has a long and storied relationship with CRCA.  We constantly lobby for more open races, especially their womens races which the guard like top hat wearing monopolists :)

Last year we jointly ran some races where "mentors" from both clubs rode in the Cat 5 field and the praise was unanimous.

Open races are a great goal; sadly the reality is that CRCA can fill its races from within so they don't *need* to make them open.
Jules, clubmates&Board,
i very much appreciate your filling us in on this unfortunate inter city bicycle racing anomaly, understood limited 'Open' races, maybe one day we (kcc) can establish a manhattan v bk challenge!
cheers,
-h;-)

Bump! Looking forward to seeing many of you out at the crit workshop. I just got official word that there are going to be Ride Brooklyn gift cards for prizes!

Not that I want to bribe anyone to come out for the fun...but the SMALLEST gift card is $25. That's right. That's significant.

Remember, this is not just for "crit racers." We will be working on skills that will help you on those crazy hard road races too.

Remember "inside-inside-outside-outside" dude who took out one of our strong guys in the closing laps of the Orchard Beach crit? Well, I've got a way to deal with that dude, and we'll talk about it.

Remember those white knuckle descents that always seem to spook someone resulting in big crashes? I'm going to take you down some screaming fast descents with hard 90 degree turns at the bottom that will have your brakes smoking.

1 hour to the course, 1 hour on the course for drills, (I'm wearing a watch and have scheduled everything out) then free time (either go back home, or ride further north depending on the type of hall pass you have for Saturday)!

See you tomorrow. 9am...if you miss us at the bridge, catch up with us on the Rockleigh course. Traditional Kissena group ride start, before you get to the state line sprint on the low road turn left on the low road into the business park.
Got to gw late. Now biking back and forth on 9w looking for the course. Can't find it.. I must be overlooking the left turn over and over. Sorry to miss this..
PHillip,
You won't find it on 9W.  It's on the "low road" Piermont road, which roughly parallels 9w, but down in the valley.

@mugwump - Ah... thanks JP.  Serves me right for leaving my place late.
Thank you everyone for coming out today...I've got to tally up points, write a report and arrange to hand out the generous prizes provided by Ride Brooklyn. In the meantime can someone private message me Edwin's phone number...I want to check in on our wounded warrior.
Marc - thanks for a great session. A big group, lots of fun and learned something too. 
@marcB&Ragot&co,
second Thanks! for v.good crit mentoring session, sorry about 'ol edwinO's slide into turn1, NO fun to crack your head&shed skin...but, now edwin ortiz is blooded &his strength, speed, endurance will rise up and race courageously! a tough crew to wipe-out in front of...good to have in house Nursing(marcB&owens), do let usALL now how healing progresses!!!! keep wound clean&treat w/antiseptic (neosporen works 4me); see also thread for injuries.

many lessons learned, &schooled in break @(7)racer 15min crit, by wessley&fiesta (cat3)team!
cheers,
-h;-)

There will be a few emails on this thread to wrap up, address some points that may or may not have been adequately covered during a jam-packed day.

We started from the GWB with 13 riders signing in and ready to rock. We talked about the importance of a warm-up before a short fast criterium.
  1. The shorter, the race, the more important the warm-up. Your legs absolutely have to be ready to go from the gun. Otherwise at best you are keeping your fingers crossed that the early break doesn't stick, because you didn't have the legs to go that soon.
  2. Get to the race MINIMUM 1 hour before your start. This will give JUST enough time to register, get dressed, go to the bathroom and get in a 20-minute warm up. BETTER get there 90 minutes before your start!
  3. Bring a trainer or rollers...if you aren't comfortable (or can't) warming up on unfamiliar city streets.

We rolled to the course and did a couple of laps of the traditional Rockleigh course follow the leader style, by the second lap, other Kissenas started drifting in from, literally all directions...

Then we went in tiny, tight little circles, working on counter-steering, getting comfortable really leaning the bike over while keeping out weight on the outside, bodies upright. I hope that folks, in this exaggerated scenario, really felt how much their position on the bike can impact the angles at which they lean the bike.

Then more guys uncloaked themselves like Klingon battleships and joined the party. We had at least 21 (not everyone got to "sign in").

From there we worked on taking corner 1 at race pace, over and over and one more time. Guys looked good generally. Here are some thoughts on questions you might have:

  1. Should I pedal through the turn? Some guys did, a few didn't. That decision is going to be depending on the situation and may change from lap to lap. What is your entry point? Who's around you? What's your speed? There's no hard and fast answer to this question. Both techniques can work.
  2. Can I ride over that grate/gravel/pot-hole/small squished rodent? Again, it depends. Sometimes getting on a crit course before your race can be tough, but you should attempt multiple lines throughout the course of the race (because you know, you may be doing 30 laps or more! You've got some time to figure these things out) to see if that spot the pack is avoiding like it's molten lava is actually your secret portal to the/off the front!

Then it was all about our 3-up, round robin, "Race to/through the first corner" drill. The first of 3 scored events. There were all kinds of styles going on. I recommended starting in an easy to pedal gear, and only allowed one shift from there. This drill was about getting a good start in a crit. Good clip in. Good leg speed. CRITICAL in tight technical crits. If you end up 50 riders back in the early laps of a race. You are going to HURT. Bad. ly.

We had a road rash wipe out here...pause in programing for a little wound care. Thanks everyone for understanding. Keith get big ups for riding to Piermont and beyond to get us supplies. Craig Z for riding our injured guy home. Both RN Marc and Medic/RN in training Owens felt his prognosis was good. I haven't heard back from him, and he's a quiet dude, but I'll update you on his status as soon as I know more (if he's okay with that, natch. HIPAA privacy rules in the house!).

From there we went to the second drill. The "teardrop" A teardrop shaped drill where we worked on taking a 180 degree turn where the choice of racing line was not so obvious. We had some good times, fun watching and competition. Close encounters with top-tubes, some pedal pull-outs, dodgy gravel near misses, etc. Results to follow in a later post. Lessons learned, I hope include:

  1. Gearing matters. Like the race to the first corner drill, we saw all manner of gear choices. But in tight technical course, leg speed generally trumps massive torque. There were guys who looked silky smooth, but didn't round the corner as fast as others spinning like crazy men. Ragot came out of the corner is such a ridiculously small gear, I'm guessing he was spinning 140-ish rpm, that even Mr. Smooth was bouncing a bit on his saddle. Still, one of the fastest times!
  2. The shortest line around a corner (or in this case giant evergreen tree planter thingy) isn't always the fastest. Especially when racing in a pack, around a tight turn (like the 180 turn at the top of the Fitchburg crit course), unless you are in the top 5-ish guys hammering for the corner, consider taking a wider, sweeping line to allow you to maintain more speed going in and out of the turn. If you are stuck on the inside and more than a handful of riders are in front of you, laws of traffic gridlock rule here and you are going to grab a big old handful of brakes. Congratulations, you just gave yourself another interval to do that lap!

By then, wives were calling, and it was time to get on home to Brooklyn and beyond. It would have been great to have 20+ guys in the intramural crit, but everyone was already so generous with their time today. 7 of us had the super-deluxe hall pass today and managed to also get in a 15 minute crit workout. Thanks everyone, I hope everyone got a little something out of the day even if there were a few bumps in the road.

I'm already looking forward to next year's workshop!


More questions from/before the clinic that deserve better/more complete answers.

How do I deal with "inside-inside-outside-outside" guy in a crit?
This is a dude who, at the last minute, NOT from the front of a group bombs the inside corner, sneaks under your armpit, realizes he's coming too hot and ends up flying out of control to the outside, far curb on the exit of the turn, dangerously pushing riders into said curb. Or crashing himself and others out of the game.

Okay, I have a lot to say here on this point. Bear with me. It'll be worth it.
  1. Avoid that guy. Not always practical and/or possible, but...it's "step 1." This "solution" reminds me of a Q&A session I once had with a big time, world-traveling Karate fighter when he was asked what the best way to block certain strikes from an opponent. And his answer was, "I'd rather not have to block at all. It kind of hurts. You're still getting hit." And similarly, while it's true in the closing laps of a crit, sometimes riders take desperate lines they haven't tried all race, in general, if you are doing lap after lap after 30+ laps with the same dudes around you, they are going to stick to the same lines. Bad bike handlers will remain bad bike handlers. GET OUT OF THEIR WAY. 
  2. Anticipate douchebaggery. What I love most about crit racing is the intense visceral experience that makes your brain fire off all kinds of neurons as you are taking in visual, auditory, tactile input, processing it and making split-second decisions. So if you can't get away from this dude, and you hear him/see him out of your peripheral vision, trying to stuff himself under your armpit at the last second, you might have to back off to avoid conflict to keep it smooth. Best case scenario, you just throttle down the power and Douchey McDouchesAlot takes the turn with no drama. Worst case scenario (not including crashing which obviously is the worse case scenario), you end up getting stuck with some funky line and/or you have to really hammer out of the corner to get back in the group.
  3. Pick your corners. Especially if you are at the head of the race (you are at the head of the race, right?), in a pack or a breakaway, there are certain corners that you are going to feel like you OWN. You are Billy Dee smooth through them. "Well, helllloo, who do we have here?" Work your magic and make sure you are first through those turns. As a related side note, get yourself in a rotational pattern that puts you where you want to be. Behind big guys on the windy straightaways, in front through your corners. You've got multiple laps to get the combo right. It's one of the other million things that should be going through your head while racing the crit.
  4. Be careful about crossing wheels. Okay, this is a bit of advice that always bugs me when announced generically at the start of any mass start road racing events. It's like, "hellooooo! There are 150 riders packed around me and I can smell what they had for breakfast. I think it's pretty much going to be impossible to avoid crossing wheels here and there...or a lot." BUT, in specific situations, it's actually really sound advice. So if you are taking a left handed turn, and the dude in front of you wipes out, which direction is he going to fall? Well outside of the initial falling down on his own left side, momentum is going to take him and his bike sliding out to the right edge of the turn. So, if my wheels have to be crossed in certain situations, I'd rather be riding on the inside of the dude turning. And sometimes that means I have to work a little harder through a given turn, but that's better than crashing. And then I immediately get to work in trying to make sure that doesn't happen next lap again.
  5. Protect your line. As both a means of balance and stability (more on this point in another post to address another question I failed to answer adequately yesterday), and as a way to discourage folks coming from behind and sticking their handlebars where they have no business sticking them, I take turns with my inside knee up (to minimize pedal clipping on the pavement as I lean the bike over) and out. Occasionally, if I've got a particularly Douchey dude behind me, I throw my inside elbow out as well (this tactic not that much, because it doesn't also have the more important benefit of improving my balance and center of gravity through the turn).

And if all else fails?

Use the Force. "This is not the line you are looking for." Sometimes, despite the best techniques and tactical riding/positioning, you are going to get caught out. It's happened to me plenty. It's frustrating. But, to borrow a funny as hell description written by another club member who's name I can't recall right now, sometimes those "Non-Neutonian Last Turnbenders" are just going to fuck up your day. But hopefully if you incorporate my suggestions above, you can minimize those times.
Double post deleted.
What's up peeps? Marc, i left you a VM message and just recapping here.

Yesterday's slip was frustrating for me. It was probably partly due to rider error but it happens. I rode down to my GFs place which was closer to the gwb and was able to wash the wounds and have a meal.

I was taken to the ER afterwards to get myself checked out. The resident doctor put a crapload of antibiotics on my road rash: hands, face, hips, leg... And he wanted to take an X ray of my knee but found nothing wrong. He thought I would need stitches on my knee but turns out there wasn't enough skin close enough to stitch together (yay?), he covered it with gauze. so I'll have to let it heal au natural.
I've had road rash on that spot before so I think I'll keep off the bike for a bike for a bit to prevent more stretching. For the most part, my bike is OK. I thank whoever worked on repairing it for helping me to ride it home, I still don't know everyone's name.

Thanks to Craig for offering to ride with me, Harry for all of his pro-tips, Marc for his nursing expertise and basically everyone for being supportive.

Edwin, I'm glad you got seen and there was no underlying damage. Keep an eye out for signs of infection. Fever, increasing redness around the wound, drainage from the wound that is foul smelling. If you keep it clean though, you shouldn't have any problems.

Welcome to the club of racers who have wrecked in a corner! Glad to hear you are doing a-okay!
thanks for organizing the lovely events of yesterday.  it was good to ride out over the GWB again...haven't done that in a month+ or so.  a fun and informative experience.  it's been so long since i attended a mass kissena event that i nearly forgot we're not just a bunch of weirdos on a forum.  well, some of us aren't...