@Edwin - glad youre ok.  Sounds like a bad crash.  Get better soon bud.

@Edwin - As my hero, the stuntman Lance Murdoch once said,"Bones heal, chicks dig scars, and the United States of America has the best doctor to daredevil ratio in the world."  Heal up well, and see you on the road!

Edwin (et al),

One more question to answer before I get to the "results" of the crit skillz challenges.

While demonstrating cornering technique in the 180 degree drill, one rider noticed that, while making a left turn, I put out my left leg pretty dramatically while taking that turn. The questioner, who was told to keep that leg in by another experienced rider, asked "why?"

I didn't have a good answer at the time, but later in that day as I was screaming down towards the low road from 9W right after the Rockland Lake climb where there is a 30 mph, descending quick right left combo turn, where if I do it right I almost go over that little bridge into the "creek" it became very clear as to why I throw my leg out like that.

BALANCE AND CENTER OF GRAVITY. I liken it to the tightrope walker who uses a long balancing pole while doing insane things (see documentary, Man on Wire, if you want to see a frenchman travel between the World Trade Towers by tightrope...it's terrifying).

On a left turn, by throwing my left leg/knee out, you can draw a straight line between my outstretched right foot/ankle all the way to the tip of my left knee. In addition to providing nice balance, I BELIEVE this "wide" stance effectively lowers my center of gravity, which normally would be a few inches higher around my hips/waist.

Finally, after this turn, I attempted another turn trying to keep my inside leg/knee tucked in and here's what I found that my balance felt off. It was actually harder to place more weight on the outside foot.

One of the first drills of the crit workshop was a silly one where we did tight circles, to demonstrate counter-steering and force an exaggeration of position on the bike. I bet if you do this drill, and attempt both techniques, the "inside leg/knee sticking out" technique will feel more natural to you. But maybe not. Give it a try. Also, if you can find some 90 degree turns that you can take at race speed, try both styles and see which feels better.

I may have been commenting on the leg inside and out. My take is that you have to make bigger corrections when your legs act as outriggers. Plus, you can't pedal through a corner. If, as on a descent or a urn you know you're not pedaling, then the knee out is fine, but if you aren't coasting, you can't really be smooth.

About the outside foot weighting for balance - I came (though can't remember how) to understand that the best weighting comes when you are actually pedaling through the turn - you're most balanced. Rather than weighting the outside pedal - you can't change your line and weighting as well.

IMHO...

My experience is knee out is good for high speed/sharp corner (descending or fast crit corner). When you really lay your bike over you want to point your knee into the apex as you drop in, feels like it helps with a good fast weight transfer into your chosen line to really nail a corner. Also for me, when you're on the edge of traction this seems to make your line through the corner more predictable.

John Malcolmson said:

I agree with you Eric that this also makes it harder to make any small adjustments to your line.

In most cases, adjusting your line mid-turn is asking for trouble. The line you enter the turn should be the line you exit it with.

This comes down to simple physics.

Bicycles change their direction because you move your center of gravity (weight) to the right or left of your direction of travel. This produces torque and causes the bicycle to turn in that direction. The center of radius of the turn (tightness of the turn) is related to the amount of weight and its distance from the center of your bike. By leaning over, you are displacing your center of gravity to one side. By holding out your hand with a lead brick in it, you are accomplishing to same thing. The difference is that in the first case you are riding on a different part of your tire (the edge) because you bike is leaning over. In the latter case, you should still be riding on the center of your tire because the bike is not leaning over. Which would you prefer?

Now we can discuss clinchers vs. tubulars. My understanding is that the profile of a tubular is preferable because it is circular, so that when you lean your bike over (like a normal person sans lead brick would do), then the contact surface with the road doesn't change. In contrast, a clincher has an oval shape, deformed by the necessity of a bead. In that case, by leaning the bike to one side, your contact surface has a different shape and possibly a different tread pattern, thereby affecting handling.

I used to think that sticking a knee out was a good idea.  In the past several years, I've read suggestions that it does more to scrub speed by making you less aero, and I was pointed to a piece by Jobst Brandt where he thinks sticking your knee out is a bad idea.

Some riders believe that sticking the knee out or leaning the body
away from the bike, improves cornering.  Sticking out a knee is the
same thing that riders without cleats do when they stick out a foot in
dirt track motorcycle fashion.  On paved roads this is a useless but
reassuring gesture that, on uneven roads, even degrades control.  Any
body weight that is not centered over the bicycle (leaning the bike or
sticking out a knee) puts a side load on the bicycle, and side loads
cause steering motions if the road is not smooth.  Getting weight off
the saddle is also made more difficult by such maneuvers.

To verify this, coast down a straight but rough road, weight on one
pedal with the bike slanted, and note how the bike follows an erratic
line.  In contrast, if you ride centered on the bike you can ride
no-hands perfectly straight over the same road.  Leaning off the bike,
trail of the front fork causes steering on a rough road, especially in
curves, in contrast to riding centered over the bike."

John, 

Agree with JP. For me, the most stabilizing thing I can do through a corner is get my center of gravity as low as possible over the wheels. It's simple geometry and physics -- make yourself a shorter lever.

adding to smart decending tetchnique:

Ah, yes, Spartacus having some fun on a descent.  We should all be so good.

This weekend, at the Tour of Somerville, there are going to be some top criterium racers contesting the main event on Monday. Please consider scheduling enough time to sit on a corner for a few minutes and watch how Adam Myerson, Karl Menzies, Hilton Clarke, Juan Jose Haedo handle themselves and their bikes.

Okay folks sorry for the delay, (I've gone to the AVD school of race results reporting apparently---oh, no I didn't, totally unnecessary slam!) but I've got results from the crit workshop to share and some prizes to hand out.

This explanation gets a little fussy, but bear with me...

The original plan was to have 3 scored events, Race to the Corner, 180 degree turn, and the crit. Winners of the individual events would receive prizes, as would the top 3 "omnium" scorers. Due to the on the course accident and subsequent delays, not everyone had the opportunity to participate in the end of session crit. So, while I'm "reporting" the results, the crit results did NOT factor into the scoring.

And because I want to spread the wealth around as much as possible, and there were ties and I didn't think of a good tie-breaker ahead of time, rewarding hard work by all, and because we didn't have the 3rd event for omnium scoring, if you won an event and you ALSO placed in the overall, you don't get two prizes, because that seems, well, not right. 

So just one gift card per "winner/placer." You feel me? Next year, I'll dial in the points reward system a bit better but for this year, I think this is a pretty good set-up.

For scoring purposes, 1st place got 3 pts, 2nd got 2 and 3rd got 1. Prizes were generously provided by Ride Brooklyn in the form of $25 gift cards. Thank you Ride Brooklyn! (Maybe you can come over to my basement and stand awkwardly holding the gift card for a picture to post on the Twitter. Haha,)

Race to the Corner
1st Joe Mueller = $25 winner!
2nd Brendan Rigby
3rd David Yang

180 degree turn
1st Konrad Ratzman = $25 winner!
2nd Eric Ragot
3rd Bendan Rigby

Crit
1st Joe Mueller
2nd Todd McGloughlin
3rd Brendan Rigby
4th Harry Edmund Bolick
5th Floris Backer
6th Rick Perner
DNF Marc Bertucco

Omnium Results
1st place (3-way tie): Mueller,
1st place (3-way tie): Ratzman,
1st place (3-way tie): Rigby = $25 winner!
2nd place: Eric Ragot = $25 winner!
3rd place: David Yang = $25 winner!

Thanks again to everyone who participated! I really do hope you all got at least a little something out of the workshop.

And here is the breakdown of the results for those who want to see the numbers and how your cornering speeds stacked up against others.

Name	Category	R to C	180 Degree	Crit	Points
Joe Mueller	3	1	DNS	1	3+0=3
Konrad Ratzmann	4		17.07		0+3=3
Eric Ragot	2		17.72		0+2=2
Brendan Rigby	5	2	17.79	3	2+1=3
Harry Edmund Bolick	4		17.8	4
Mark Clifford	5		17.87
Wes Tillman	4		17.99
Craig Zolan	4		18.01
Mike Perlberg	2		18.4
Bruce Van-Schalkwyk	4		18.58
David Yang	5	3	18.68		1+0=1
Ryan Johnston	3		18.77
Aaron Blum	5		18.99
Rick Perner			19.19	6
Adam Fabian	5		19.51
Jeff White	4		19.56
Floris Backer	5		19.74	5
Eric Mechlenbeck	4		19.99
Ray "J"			20.2
Todd McGloughlin			32	2
Edwin Ortiz	5

Marc - thanks for doing this. Wow, 2nd with a 39x25 for fun....

Thanks Marc!  Woohoo, $25 big ones!

Thank you Marc!  The workshop really paid off.

Brendan Rigby said:

Thank you Marc!  The workshop really paid off.

Well, I do like to think that you managed to handle corner 1 of last night's Rockleigh crit just a smidge better than if you hadn't participated in the workshop!

I'll make sure to get you your reward card just as soon as I see you next....

Or if folks want me to mail them, snail mail style...

Post your name and mailing address on this thread.

it might be faster to snail mail unless you're going to FBF this sunday or tuesday:

Good point...

you can private message me your address on the forum or send info to my snail mail:

marcbertucco@yahoo.com

This discussion was created from comments split from: Mentoring.

Bump.

It's baaaack. By "popular demand," (new daddy John M, says folks are interested), I've resurrected the Crit Racing Workshop for 2015. We're doing this one "pop-up" "bandit" style, so it may very well happen the day after tomorrow. Or a week or so from then.

This year, I'll be sure to include some "old favorites" and new gems too. And remember, just because you don't consider yourself a crit racer, or never intend to race a crit, we'll review some skills that will come in handy in any race situation.

For example, ex-KCC racer, Konrad R. once told me that a cornering drill we did helped him better master cyclocross cornering. And for anyone who's followed the local CX scene, that dude is pretty damn good at cross (well, he's good at a lot of bike racing stuffs, but he really did make a significant leap last year).

So head on over, answer the poll, and we'll have some fun.