Vuelta a España - Forum Archive

Sep 14, 2013 at 01:58 AM

@Ian - I'm stealing your Hill Street Blues winter training regimen. But I might eschew the British chocolate (Really? There's such a thing? [Full body shudder]). And I might switch out the sofa thing in favor of the trainer. Mind?

How about this crazy theory: Tyler Ferrar's last sprint win (when he famously gang-signed a big "W" for Wouter) was gifted to him by a grieving peleton out of respect. Boom. I said it.

Mark Clifford

Sep 14, 2013 at 05:48 PM

Let's get back on point: Horner -- massive dope fiend.

For me, his performance in the vuelta is far more suspicious than froome's at the tour. At lest with Froome you had a series of victories leading up to the tour, not to mention podiums at other major events. You had a build up of form. Horner just comes out of nowhere and whoops Rodriquez, Nibal and Valverde (albeit slightly tired versions of themselves).

Also, he's properly bald. I have no problem with baldness but for fuck's sake shave off the ring of remaining hair.

Jeff Owens

Sep 14, 2013 at 06:20 PM

I think it was the second fastest ascent of Angry Lou behind a doped to the gills Heras? I WANT TO BELIEVE!!!

Low gearing for it:

Alejandro Valverde 36/29
Vicenzo Nibali 34/29
Samuel Sánchez 34/32
Nicolas Roche 36/32
Chris Horner 34/32
Joaquín Rodríguez 36/28

twoyacks

Sep 14, 2013 at 10:40 PM

I think the last time Horner pulled the old, "I'm going to stay home and train by myself" bit he walked away with the Tour of California. I suspect when you are not going to races, you are not getting tested as often...As a 42 year old man, I know something about how 42 year old men recover from efforts = not well. The amount of summit finishes in the Vuelta favors someone who recovers quickly. Whatever....I think we all have enough to worry about with the local doping problem....waiting for the next Mengoni foot to drop.

Thierry Bonnaire

Sep 14, 2013 at 11:46 PM

Actually Horner was tested 15 times this year ( official count by the USDA).

Jules

Sep 14, 2013 at 11:52 PM

I don't buy the training at home, living in a trailer as a way to avoid detection theory.

Nobody cares where you are; if USADA or WADA call you have to be findable. Those are the rules. If he's doping (and goodness, it's a tough sell to convince anyone he isn't) I think it will be something else; either the Spaniards are responsible for testing (and notoriously lax) or it's a less detectable "juice" or ...?

Ryan J

Sep 15, 2013 at 12:16 AM

Ha, @Mark reinforces my observation: The British contingent of Kissena goes easy on their countrymen! C'mon Mark - "far more suspicious?" I mean, it's totally suspicious but Froome completely dominated all the best riders in the world, at their peak, fully motivated, and in every facet of the race. Horner squeaked out a victory in a much easier field. And how does Froome being great before the Tour make it less suspicious? The logic seems to be "dominating is suspicious but less so if you dominate longer." I'm not saying Horner's not HIGHLY suspicious, but it's certainly not more suspicious than Froome's. As suspicious maybe (though I dont think so) but not more.

Jules

Sep 15, 2013 at 12:37 AM

Hmmm... how about this? How can you tell if a rider is doping? They just won a race. Zing.

twoyacks

Sep 15, 2013 at 01:10 AM

Damn...my answer was going to be....he rides for Mengoni. sha-zinger !

Ryan J

Sep 15, 2013 at 01:20 AM

twoyacks said:

Damn...my answer was going to be....he rides for Mengoni. sha-zinger !

Horner and Froome to Mengoni!

alyoshas

Sep 15, 2013 at 03:04 AM

awesome to see a thread dedicated to a grand tour is again smeared with doping allegations!

what an incredible stage though, I watched it live and it was grand!

twoyacks

Sep 15, 2013 at 03:35 AM

doped or not....when this race becomes available for purchase, I'm getting it. Sounds like a good one to watch while on the rollers.

twoyacks

Sep 15, 2013 at 03:37 AM

which begs the question...is it entertainment or sport ???? doped vs. clean..... I say sport when I'm racing and entertainment when I'm watching...

mugwump

Sep 15, 2013 at 04:33 AM

Jules said:

I don't buy the training at home, living in a trailer as a way to avoid detection theory.

Nobody cares where you are; if USADA or WADA call you have to be findable. Those are the rules. If he's doping (and goodness, it's a tough sell to convince anyone he isn't) I think it will be something else; either the Spaniards are responsible for testing (and notoriously lax) or it's a less detectable "juice" or ...?

Jules,

There are ways. It's not just "don't answer the door!" but fill up your mobile phone's voice mail so no one can leave a message, fax in a change to your whereabouts form at the last minute, go places where it is difficult for testers to find you. Yes, you have to be findable, but that doesn't mean you can be found.

Jules

Sep 15, 2013 at 01:13 PM

@Wunp I didn't mean there was no way to hide; just that at the end of the day if you aren't findable you are in violation.

@Yoshi is it the race smeared with allegations or are the grand tours smeared with doping?

I can't wait to watch the whole thing either - pity the fog will interfere with the picture perfect HD quality coverage we are accustomed to...

twoyacks

Sep 15, 2013 at 01:27 PM

just hanging with my bros...sharing a fridge...

562780_10200941901163919_622238904_n.jpg

Ryan J

Sep 15, 2013 at 01:30 PM

Jules said:

I can't wait to watch the whole thing either - pity the fog will interfere with the picture perfect HD quality coverage we are accustomed to...

The problems the fog caused the coverage actually make it kind of cool; it just adds to a feeling of chaos that is pretty exciting.

alyoshas

Sep 15, 2013 at 05:06 PM

this forum is smeared with allegations. and I don't believe a second that horner or nibali are doped- there might still be doping but it's certainly more isolated, and while you might have been deceived heavily with armstrong when you loved him it's not a reason to spread the hate.

that is all,

thank you.

Ryan J

Sep 15, 2013 at 05:15 PM

alyoshas said:

this forum is smeared with allegations. and I don't believe a second that horner or nibali are doped- there might still be doping but it's certainly more isolated, and while you might have been deceived heavily with armstrong when you loved him it's not a reason to spread the hate.
that is all,
thank you.

Yes, why should that isolated incident called Lance Armstrong color us skeptical, given the decades of clean cycling we've witnessed before and after his terrible reign?

Adam

Sep 15, 2013 at 05:28 PM

Scenario 1: Horner wins grand tour, amazingly at the age of 42, with skill, passion, determination and courage.

Scenario 2: Horner wins grand tour, amazingly at the age of 42, with skill, passion, determination, PEDs and courage.

twoyacks

Sep 15, 2013 at 06:11 PM

allegations ? that is so 2003....people can be as vociferous as they want concerning clean riders...the difference today is that there is push back...A 42 year old man who has done a handful of racing all year, coming back from knee surgery shows up and wins a grand tour. A tour with many mountain top finishes, requiring incredible recovery. At 42 you do not recover anywhere nearly as quickly as you do when you are 22-32. Your body does not produce testosterone at the same levels at 42 (Male Testosterone Levels

According to MayoClinic.com, testosterone levels in men peak during the teen and early adult years, then decrease about 1 percent a year after age 30)

pictures really are worth a thousand words....flanked by admitted dopers...who were also teammates.

562780_10200941901163919_622238904_n.jpg

podium.jpg

saturn.jpg

twoyacks

Sep 15, 2013 at 06:14 PM

the last pics shows Horner, Danielson & O'Neil riding away from the field at Redlands and putting 12 minutes into the field on a 3 hours course...12 minutes with the entire Pro Domestic peloton chasing them from the gun = the power of Ped's

Jules

Sep 15, 2013 at 06:51 PM

Maybe Yoshi has a point. After all, it was only twenty years of rampant doping in which pretty much every single member of every pro team rider & staff were involved, and all of Horner's peers, colleagues and competitors... and of course all the people running the races, and the officiating bodies... and the sponsors... and the press...

But I'm sure it's all super clean now. I mean, it wouldn't even be rational to publicly suspect Horner, would it?

Jules

Sep 15, 2013 at 06:57 PM

^I kid, Alyosha... I'd love nothing better to than if he was clean, but I just don't buy it.

ian ellis

Sep 15, 2013 at 09:47 PM

I don't associate with "British"

alyoshas

Sep 16, 2013 at 01:03 AM

I'm pretty sure there's a thread for doping, I thought this was to talk about the race itself and of its' positive values but since we're at it:

I was using the armstrong example as a way to denote the idolatry that may have been prevalent in the US around that time, the heartbreak and all the sad faces that came after that.

I think a major difference in Europe or at least in France from what I can attest to, is that athletes aren't as idolized or as celebrated as they are in the US and there was more doubt from the beginning, It seems everyone knew about the doping already before postal came along. I digress though, I couldn't give two farts about the texan. It seems that after this affair and the 'proof' that came out, people who know about cycling in the slightest way felt empowered to extend judgements on who is doping and who isn't. I understand some of the facts that are examined including the ones that gazzetta dello sport published on this vuelta, and that's fair- Skepticism is more than understandable including the 'pseudo-science' Brailsford mentioned and I find it interesting to read, it's a part of the sport that one has to accept.

You don't have to 'buy it', take it for what it's worth perhaps. I understand credibility in cycling is not easy to swallow and i'm not saying to take things at face value, just to enjoy it and stop beating a dead horse.

Cycling is beautiful for everything that it embodies and doping is the other side of the coin (unfair advantage, death, mental health issues etc...). why can't we focus on the race? the sweet mountains, the way Nibali attacked the shit out of Horner before getting smoked, that Roche got distanced but kept his 5th place, how Rodriguez and Valverde kept it honest and steady clawing their way back at some points. but most of all that 22 year old Elissonde from FDJ won the stage

twoyacks

Sep 16, 2013 at 03:15 AM

I didn't watch one frame of the race....but I am actually very interested in seeing it when it becomes available on dvd. I won't be a willing enabler to the doping culture though. Doping and cycling got hitched....there is no quickie divorce. Cycling has doping for life...it's like hep c, once it gets in, ain't no getttin it out. Make shorter stages, and I will believe. Give us real time power #'s, and I will believe. Make the pros take polygraphs, and I will believe. Until then, I believe anyone in the top 10 is manipulating their blood values. The shift in the paradigm to guilty until proven innocent is not the fault of the fans. We have been conditioned over the past 20 years to not believe. blah, blah......B-lahhhhhhh

twoyacks

Sep 16, 2013 at 11:09 AM

Hey Alyoshas...are you ready for the boom ? Here comes THE BOOOOM !!!!!!!!

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/15476/RadioShack-Leopard-team-insists-Horner-had-updated-ADAMS-system-with-change-of-hotel.aspx

alyoshas

Sep 16, 2013 at 11:36 AM

Kermit just wanted to stay in the same hotel as Ms Piggy, what's wrong with that. I kid, they might be onto something but I'm sure he got tested after the stage as well.

Marc Bertucco

Sep 16, 2013 at 01:28 PM

Like Lance and Santa Klaus, I choose to believe until I absolutely cannot anymore. And then I continue to believe in the spirit and goodness that is still there. So if the rest of you want to go digging in your parent's closet for hidden presents, so be it.