Vuelta a España - Forum Archive

Sep 16, 2013 at 02:02 PM

@Marc, the act of choosing not look for presents in my parents closet is a conscious choice to keep myself shielded from the truth. In the case of presents, there's no harm in staying blind so I can enjoy it more. The same cannot be said of choosing to stay blind to cheating in sports in order to preserve my own enjoyment of them. That's just willful ignorance for the purpose of selfish enjoyment. Kind of like how I have to choose to forget that the people who make iPhones kill themselves because they'd rather die than work in the factories that make them, so I can use my iPhone in peace.

@Aly, to try to separate the race from the doping issue is to create a separate reality. We might not want it to be that way. It makes it less enjoyable. But its the way it IS.

But all that said, I think there's middle ground here. Why is so much of the thinking on this so black and white? Marc and Alyosha, you guys talk like its one or the other: (a) choose to see the beauty of the sport and the courage that the competition takes, or (b) acknowledge what any rational adult can see, which is that historically, nearly all exceptional performances end up being dope-fueled.

A and B are not mutually exclusive; you can do both. Adam had it exactly right when he said: "Scenario 1: Horner wins grand tour, amazingly at the age of 42, with skill, passion, determination and courage. Scenario 2: Horner wins grand tour, amazingly at the age of 42, with skill, passion, determination, PEDs and courage."

One can recognize the "spirit and goodness" and the "skill, passion, determination, and courage" without being a Pollyanna about the state of the sport or the likelihood that performers like Horner and Froome are clean. At the same time, one should be able to maintain an appropriate amount of skepticism without swinging so judgmental that they think there's just nothing good about the sport or those performances at all.

Jules

Sep 16, 2013 at 02:14 PM

I couldn't add a word to what @Ryan wrote.

I *do* think the WADA snafu is quite illustrative of a fundamental part of the problem; the watchers aren't that good or don't really want to catch the villains and the risk/reward for the cheaters still makes it a rational choice.

And how does the Winner of a Grand Tour get to pick the single hour in which he can be tested?

Brendan Rigby

Sep 16, 2013 at 03:01 PM

alyoshas said:

this forum is smeared with allegations. and I don't believe a second that horner or nibali are doped- there might still be doping but it's certainly more isolated, and while you might have been deceived heavily with armstrong when you loved him it's not a reason to spread the hate.
that is all,
thank you.

@alyoshas, it's very circular straightforward. this forum has taught me how to determine if someone doped in the post-armstrong era. i made this flowchart to assist you in understanding just how simple and easy it is.

Jules

Sep 16, 2013 at 03:30 PM

Redneck's power file from Stage 18

http://www.srm.de/news/road-cycling/vuelta-a-espana-stage-18/

JohnMalcolmson

Sep 16, 2013 at 06:15 PM

Do you think Horner enjoys being called Redneck? Didn't LA think that one up?

I think granddad is far superior.

David Yang

Sep 16, 2013 at 06:21 PM

Dope talk aside, I finally got to watch the foggy race to the top and thought pro bike racing can still look beautiful and classic.

David Yang

Sep 16, 2013 at 06:33 PM

Jeffrey White said:

How about this crazy theory: Tyler Ferrar's last sprint win (when he famously gang-signed a big "W" for Wouter) was gifted to him by a grieving peleton out of respect. Boom. I said it.

Ouch. I don't know, looked like a pretty well contested sprint to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_MSOZlQPP0

twoyacks

Sep 18, 2013 at 11:06 AM

sad really....a Grand Tour winner does not have bluetooth....

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/is-chris-horner-a-redacted-name-in-usadas-reasoned-decision

Dan Reiners

Aug 23, 2015 at 07:44 PM

uh...I guess if they can't get Astana for doping, they'll pop them for speed bottles.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/08/controversy-at-vuelta-a-espana-as-nibali-filmed-taking-extended-tow-from-astana-team-car/

twoyacks

Aug 23, 2015 at 08:43 PM

Doesn't get anymore blatant than that...too bad there wasn't more tree coverage to shield that move from the helicopter...Nibali is fond of saying the imbecile's mother is always pregnant. After attacking Froome the second he got a mechanical at the tour and now this..it begs the question, when is Nibali's mom expecting?

Jules

Aug 23, 2015 at 09:08 PM

That was one helluva speed bottle! More like a speed solid fuel booster rocket.

Dan Reiners

Aug 24, 2015 at 12:20 AM

We all know that Nibali was pulling the car along uphill, and the driver was too afraid to let go.

mugwump

Aug 24, 2015 at 02:09 AM

The main problem with the sticky bottle application here is that he dropped the group.

Dan Reiners

Aug 28, 2015 at 02:04 PM

Orica seems to have shown up to the Vuelta which they apparently didn't at the TdF. Nice to see them putting in some strong performances from young riders. Ewan and Chavez are really helping salvage the grand tour part of their season.

Mark Taylor

Aug 28, 2015 at 04:56 PM

Oh no ! TJ did a TJ

David Yang

Aug 28, 2015 at 04:58 PM

I'm afraid of what that means...

Dan Reiners

Aug 28, 2015 at 07:21 PM

Mark Taylor said:

Oh no ! TJ did a TJ

cauli-flower-powerI stole the rest of Momrsquos cauliflower from the kitchen counter and ate it all Now I stink like an one-year-old egg-saladhellip

Dan Reiners

Aug 30, 2015 at 03:12 PM

What's the deal with motos crashing guys this year? It seems to be happening a ton and impacting the results of races with Fuslang in the Tour, and Sagan in the Vuelta, are they just picking motos from guys who just raise their hands?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2kvRt1zpR0

Jeffrey White

Aug 30, 2015 at 04:12 PM

Sagan had the win in the bag. Smells like Vegas.

Jules

Aug 30, 2015 at 05:32 PM

Jeffrey White said:

Sagan had the win in the bag. Smells like Vegas.

Most likely scenario

Mark Taylor

Sep 08, 2018 at 08:54 PM

That climb! Today totally amaze!

PatrickGrehan

Sep 10, 2018 at 01:14 AM

Agreed. This weekend of Racing was pretty edge of your seat

mugwump

Sep 10, 2018 at 03:23 PM

PatrickGrehan said:

Agreed. This weekend of Racing was pretty edge of your seat

What I couldn't understand was how the commentators and pundits have talked and written about Yates being wiser--I didn't see that at all on the final climb yesterday.

Mark Taylor

Sep 10, 2018 at 04:45 PM

mugwump said:

PatrickGrehan said:

Agreed. This weekend of Racing was pretty edge of your seat

What I couldn't understand was how the commentators and pundits have talked and written about Yates being wiser--I didn't see that at all on the final climb yesterday.

Agree with you about Yesterday , but saturday i thought he rode a little more savy!