this is amazing:

http://twitter.com/#!/NYCSpringSeries/media/slideshow?url=pic.twitter.com/g8JSXia6

damn fine win Mike! Congratulations!

I'm so confused. But I'll say that chomper body gives us a discount, which is super cool. But that her embrocation is super-waxy and sucks.

mike, AVD deserves huge praise for using video, finding the violators, and dq'ing them.

Posted By: harry bolick
no real plan other than typical 'keep powder dry till last 2Laps and position Ashley well for his 20sec kiloWatts sprint-finish;

Harry, your enthusiasm for racing and riding hard is awesome and I don't want to dampen that in any way...but I think you and I have different definitions of "keep your powder dry." According to your teammate, you attacked every lap. Which is great, if you want to focus on keeping the race hard for your teammates, and giving yourself a great workout. If however, you are looking for some results, you might have to be a little more selective about when you light up the black powder bombs. You know what I'm saying?

Posted By: Christian RefakisWe then quickly caught the breakaway, totaling about 15 guys. We had a lead of about 200 m, but frustratingly, the breakaway was pathetically disorganized and unmotivated. We were caught in about a lap. I actually wanted to do my fair share and take a pull, but Ryan saw me attempt this and told me not to work, just incase we made it all the way and I was sprinting out for the finish out of the breakaway. I listened. It was good advice, given the relative size of the breakaway.

Christian, I think the better move when you are in a dysfunctional breakaway with multiple teammates (or not only, but definitely with multiples), is to attack the shit out of the break drawing out the strongest and most motivated. 15 guys is just too big a break to work well together in most circumstances. Too much energy is spent worrying about passengers in breakaways. You don't like them, then drop the hammer until you whittle it down to like-minded individuals.

^ Agreed. Now you will have to start racing with a camera to get pollo jr / sr DQ'd.

@Marc: It was my major takeaway from Perlberg's report. I think it's great advice. If bitches don't wanna work, full throttle it and see who comes. Fine. In that case, I'd have to abandon my sit in and sprint plan, but I suppose that could be a great thing if the break works.

Thanks for the advice - keep it coming. Don't hold back.

C

Posted By: Christian Refakis@Marc: It was my major takeaway from Perlberg's report. I think it's great advice. If bitches don't wanna work, full throttle it and see who comes. Fine. In that case, I'd have to abandon my sit in and sprint plan, but I suppose that could be a great thing if the break works.

Thanks for the advice - keep it coming. Don't hold back.

C

Awesome. This is advice I've gotten from Marc, Eric, JP, and Myles. Glad you picked up on it. Go mentoring system!

Well, one guy did attack the shit out of the group, and he rode away and won. No one followed, including myself, and I'm pretty sure it was because no one had the legs. I believe that guy was quite simply just stronger than everyone else.

So Marc - correct me if I'm wrong (not being sarcastic there, I'm really asking what you think) but in that situation my thinking was that we had to ask ourselves which of two options gives us a better chance:

Option 1 is let Christian try to drive a dying breakaway (trust me, it was dying. I was in that move the whole time, I started it, I drove it, I listened to everybody say they couldn't pull through) OR

Option 2 is save Christian totally for the sprint in which he's likely to do well whether its out of a break or out of a bunch that's been hurt by the long chase after the catch

My thought was that Christian, strong though he is, was not going to successfully save that breakaway with no help. So Option 2 seemed better. Wrong?

You made the right call telling me not to work.

Remember, I burned a solid match just getting in the chase group:

http://www.oneimagingphotography.com/Cycling/New-York-Spring-Series-Race47/Cat-3-and-4/22336271_9hGwJ6/1784827970_KL4h6b8

Burning another one in a break that would likely fail would have only weakened my bunch sprint performance.

But Marc's advice is great nonetheless as the right people can be there at the right time when they are fresh enough to make your jailbreak worth it, per Mike's win.

It sounds to me like you did the best you could with a difficult situation. I'm getting tired of our really fit cat 4 guys not going into successful breakaways - stay tenacious and it will happen. Those Scottos guys frustrate me to no end. I don't think I've ever seen them ride a break well.

I think JP and I were thinking the same thing:

1) Lets keep as many people around, working as much as they can, for at least 5 laps or so. Try to force others to work, and work enough ourselves to keep the gap healthy. But not so much that we can't cover the inevitable counter-attack.

2) At that point, lets shed some dead weight.

@master marcB, &co,
good advice!
...on actually keeping powder 'dry,' & i am sure that a few too many matches were certainly lit over(7)laps of Prospect race...yes, to soften up field &yes, to 'work-out' in prep for efforts@Battenkill next weekend& have FUN.

just to illustrate that i do, greatfully, listen to our 'master mentors' note: i 'limited' efforts at Central Park on sunday's race &moved up finish from an 11th finish to 7th finish - still out of money(1-5th), but, with more sprint training hopes for improvement in future over the last 50meters.
thanks for insights,
-harry

ps.

@mrPerlberg,
rather adore your 'dorky smile' of success/relief at your smashing finish WIN!

infact, it is just this, somewhat humble non-testosterone infused finish that evokes pride in the Kissena Cycling Club teammates.

chapeau!
-h;>

thanks david,
yep, was definately in good/dream position, in part because still a bit left in legs at race finishing turns, per team(marcB's)advice, day before, to 'actually' keep powder dry.
mentoring is super helpful!
-h;>

@ Harry, well done on the 7th! Mr consistency.

I was on the same page with Mike, but since we've raced together for a year and have probably talked and written tactics way too much, being on the same page wasn't hard.

There are a number of things to keep in mind with breakaways. They include the following. because of aerodynamics, the bigger the group behind relative to the break, the easier time the field will have chasing down the break. Because of teamwork, the more teams represented up in the break, the fewer people in the pack are likely to want to chase. Even with these two, the bigger the break,the less likely to chase once it's out of sight on the assumption by many that the bigger the group, the harder it will be to pull back. Gaps matter--the further the gap, the less inclined individuals are to attack out of the field. When the gap is over a minute on a decent-sized group, the field will have to work well in concert or will need a split to make a dent in the gap. Even a 30-second gap can be discouraging.

When you're in the break, the scene looks different. Once the break gets beyond a certain size, people are more likely to skip pulls thinking they won't be noticed. There are always stronger and weaker riders. No matter where you fall on the spectrum, you don't want to advertise how strong or weak you are. Work on getting guys to ride smoothly together, when possible pulling off into the wind and hitting the tangents on curves. Try to convince the sitters to work--there are many ways to do this, but it can be tricky. It's worth it to ease up a bit when going uphill if it saves riders who are contributing to the escape as they can help on the flats and downhill. And there are times when a rider who seems like dead weight is on a team with a rider who can win the race--the longer this guy is on, the less you have to worry about his teammate. In a perfect world, you'd ditch him last.

If there are more riders than paying places at the end, you want to start shedding riders once you can figure out whose not contributing enough.

As the gap grows, you have more latitude to shed riders, though you don't want to get rid of them too soon. You want to do it if the break is slowing down or the riders are showing signs of being at their limit or if you realize that you'll be faster without them.

Guys who can barely hang on can wreck breakaways. So, too, can a strong rider who doesn't know what he's doing.

At the end of long breakaways, it can often feel like everything is going slowly. It probably is, but because of this, the dynamics of attacking and sprinting change. A small gap can hover and it's really hard to close it. Sprints are slower. At these times, the rider who is less spent might start to have an advantage on someone whose a better explosive sprinter but is more fatigued.

It's true, it's always going to be tough making decisions on the fly like that. It kind of sounded like a no-win situation.

(I'm going to start talking generally a bit here, so what I'm describing might not necessarily apply to the situation you were in. I've gone back to read the reports several times, and it can be difficult to get a true sense of what was happening just from reading the reports. And I don't want to sound critical, rather offer up some alternative ways that the 15-rider break may have played out.)

From my latest re-read, it sounds like you had 3 guys out of 15 in the break. First there was Ryan, then came Adam and finally Christian.

If I'm reading these posts right, then you felt the break was dying for sure, and you wanted to allow Christian, your sprinter, to rest his legs. That's legit, he just bridged, he needs the recovery. So then you have to consider what you (Ryan) and Adam want to be doing. If you want the full break to succeed, and you can't employ the attack the too big to succeed break strategy, then you definitely have to get to the front and start rotating through, riding hard without surges.

You can't control what others are going to do, but like I previously said, if you lead by example, hopefully you can get a few others to literally follow your lead and rotate through, so it's not just 2 Kissena's trying to keep a 15-rider break rolling. But it might have to start that way. I know when I've been in breaks with We Stand United and they put a couple of guys on the front, I'll slot in to take my turns at the front, because it's in my best interest too to work to keep the move away. I'm not entirely clear what the picture looked like once you had 3 guys in the group of 15, but think about what the other guys are thinking if they look around at the group and see 3 Kissena's sitting in and not rotating through?

Now even if 2 of you are motivated and want to pull, it's best to line up 1-2, so you can get a smooth flow going until other willing riders note what's going on and slot in for even pulls. Hopefully, you can keep the unmotivated off of the front of the group so you don't get tangled in your rotation. The rider who chose to attack the group was doing, I think, the right thing. If none of you have the legs to go with him, then you have to continue to ride steady and strong, pulling back the attacks slowly but surely, until other riders join in on the breakaway fun.

Now back in the peloton, ideally, you've got teammates patrolling the front, ready to counter attack should your move get brought back. If you are resting Christian, or any one of your 3 in the 15 rider move, then that more rested rider should be ready to go with the counter attack too.

I mean to answer your question specifically, it's fine to save Christian for a sprint, but if you and Adam are both too knackered to help keep the break going, then accept the fact that the break is doomed and everyone just spin those legs until the field comes back and hopefully some of your other teammates who were blocking/patrolling the front of the peloton, will be ready to counter attack.

Ryan, it sounds like you were doing a lot of work to get that move going and established, and so it's going to be frustrating to see your break wither and die. Unfortunately, you can't make others ride in ways they cannot or will not for whatever reason. I mean, with 15 guys, you'll have all types.

I"m going to put my two pence worth in on this.

Ryan and 4(?) others were in a group off the front. At the bottom of the hill 'Tank' as I like to call him (Dillon on Rapha, a very strong rider) decided to jump. Knowing his strength it was a good choice so I simply made sure to follow. Another Mexico NY guy (the guy who won a few weeks back from the break with Jeff Condon in) joined us. That made 3. We bridged up and junctioned on the descent (just where the remaining potholes, which have now been filled, are). As I said, a group of 3. This wasn't so bad, made 8 in total or so.

The problem lay in the group behind. So, as with 3 riders, it was tough to bridge but not impossible (obviously). When we arrived, the group, as Ryan said, was total shit. Tank, me, Ryan and some other green guy with pink tapeI tried to get in at the front to drive. About 30-60 seconds after bridging, Christian's group (about 7) junctioned too. Here's the issue. The break was tired (fair enough, they'd been off the front). Our group of 3 which was pretty strong needed some rest (bridging up the hill with only 3 to help is tiring but not totally exhaustive). The group after, did the same work but with twice the guys, yet refused to get up front. There, is the inherent issue. Break=spent. First bridge=given no chance to rest. Second bridge=did less to junction and still less in the break. No-one pulled. Amzing that the final group decided that their race was won by bridging. I just don't think the fitness was there at all.

Also, the second group was less of a bridging group and more part of the peloton that didn't slow down on the hill. All in all, I think the second bridge was a bit of a gift from the pack. There was not much strength in it but it seemed to form. I think that another week, with other stronger riders not away preparing for Battenkill or racing the next day, it would have all come to nothing. It was incredibly surprising that a group of 8 were able to roll of the front after the two groups up the road and the pack didn't just latch on... All in all, it might have been that way as those 7 made the equivalent impact of the whole pack being brought up: dead weight, no pulling.

I think Marc's right: attack like crazy, even if you blow yourself up. In fairness, Tank tried to do this, I simply slipstreamed as he was really strong and it was tough to contribute. There was an incredible weakness in that break (maybe 5 strong riders, 10 weak).

Thanks for the perspective guys, some good chat/advice.

I'm chalking these "failed" breaks up to experience. Sooner or later one will stick. The key thing (from my perspective) is to keep guys waiting so that they can counter when breaks come back and to continue to race aggressively, and to learn who the guys are on the other teams who can ride a paceline and are willing to commit.

The big guy (Mike?) from ARC racing who got his spokes all fucked up right before the finale for example is a good break-mate and I was delighted to see him bridge up to me - sadly I was way cooked by then.

One last thing I've been asking myself is "am I wasting my best on the early doomed breaks?" It feels like everyone is full of piss & vinegar in the first 3 laps so my brilliant, watt-tastic moves are getting swallowed up like so much sound & fury. It is really hard to watch breaks go that are un or under represented by Kissena, but with a fit, furious Cat 4 field behind perhaps we should be a little more cagey with our matches?

Ive been mulling over how I raced on Saturday and trying to think what if. Interested to get some opinions from you guys. As a prerequisite, I wasnt feeling great and hadnt been for the previous 3 days so my plan to sit in was reflected by that.

Questions
A: What if I didnt try and bridge, how would I have done in the sprint?
B: What if I worked harder to bridge so id have more time on the solo break aways wheel?
C: What if I didnt come through and work at all and attacked the solo break?

My Answers:
A: I guess you either stick to the plan and hide out of the wind the whole race until when it matters. As I said in my report, I felt the wind more than I had done in previous races testing my legs so I cant say I lived by this! I did believe that the break would stick however, he was a strong rider, the peleton wasnt doing anything about it and noone was willing to reel him in with only half a lap to go.

B: I consciously was measuring my effort during the breach. I punched it hard for 10 seconds, not all out but enough to get away. I sat down and go into a rhythm slowly reeling him in. I was committed and although I set a 5 minute power PB for this year I can say I wasnt 100% committed, I knew I was catching him and I let it take a little longer than it could have. Perhaps that was good so I didnt pop, perhaps I should have worked harder initially, say 3 hard minutes rather than 5 consistent minutes and recovered more on the downhill on his wheel.

C: This is the one im really thinking about. I caught him up, best 5 minute power ive had all year including the downhill which is a massive surprise as that kind of power, for me, only ever comes from going up Alpine, I felt good, I had more too, we had a gap but I knew we had to work together. I was super happy to have the thought we could get a 1st or 2nd but really at that point it didnt matter, I would have taken 2nd, he did the break, he made the gap, quite frankly I would have worked with him and not minded if he won, he certainly deserved it at that point. The reality was I sat on his wheel for 10 seconds after my 5 minute effort, knew we had to work together, told him that as I passed as we just got on the resurfaced tarmac after the downhill and did a big pull on the front. I didnt surge, I just got aero and kept the wattage consistently high not going in the red (at least no more than I had been in already). That was when I think our break went to shit, I was in the red but for too long, I was signaling, shouting all sorts but he wouldnt come though. Maybe he didnt know how fast the group were coming at us but I truly believe leaving me out on the front for 2 minutes rather than 10 second pulls cost us 1st and 2nd place. He came through with a big attack about 50m out, I managed to stay on his wheel but we got caught about 10m to the line by a lonely 2 sprinters who took 1st and 2nd, the solo breakawayer got 3rd and I took 4th. I do also think about if I didnt do anywork, maybe we would have got swallowed sooner and not got any points, thats what I believed at the time but maybe I could have taken 3rd that way. It was my belief that we could/should have taken 1st and 2nd that made me do what I did. We spoke after the race I after the "congrats nice race" small talk I said to him we should have got 1 and 2. He said he thought he was leading me out but then went on to apologize for not taking a pull.

Oh well its all experience, I had fun and got some points, the trophy is now on a shelf looking for another to sit next to soon :-)

Any thoughts on opinions are much appreciated.

A

My gut feels like I should have worked harder to breach in say 3 minutes rather than 5, recovered as much as possible then attacked again

We were. I didn't take any break seriously until lap 7. Ryan's group looked strong and being that it was lap 7, the attack was pretty well-timed. Once Dylan and Adam formed their chase group up the hill, I began to take the move very seriously, especially as others latched on to their initial 3-man group to form the eventual chase group.I launched my chase off the top of the hill. I came alone. I exploded my lungs just getting to Adam's group, because I took it that seriously. I knew Ryan and Adam are strong, and wanted to be in their move.

Adams group was gunning it as Ryan's was losing steam. This rendezvous occurred on the west side where the pot holes are really bad. We enjoyed a nice lead, espeically on the descent. We were caught before we crossed the finish line.

A quick note on my race yesterday. A family event took me to Connecticut for the weekend, so I snuck in a traditional criterium run in conjunction with Yale University's Cycling Club's weekend events. Nice course, tight turns, nasty pavement leading onto a bridge that had my bike skipping, sliding and otherwise wondering if I had broken my wheel at least 5 times.

There's nothing like the rush and intensity of a crit. Other than the first lap where I charged to the front to check out the turns at full-speed (eliciting groans from cool college-ish kids saying "let hairy-legs go"), I rode the race pretty conservatively working on leg speed, acceleration and handling skills. Good to shake off the rust a bit for bigger crits coming in May. Break escapes early, the bunch was sprinting for 7th or so place. My end game has never been terrific, and despite being 5 riders from the front of a fairly technical course with 1 to go, I got swarmed and that was it.

No matter, getting psyched for more crits this year.

My race report from the 3/4.

Watched the two man break go in an early lap, sat in the top 10 looking for a chase to form, and settled in waiting for a good person to jump across with, which never really came, and a chase did form 10 yards up, which didn't last long. I didn't really have the heart to try to bridge by myself, and ended up spending the rest of the race as pack fodder, since I wasn't going to start organizing/contributing to an actual chase I stayed out of the way. On the last lap almost got taken out by a guy who touched a wheel ahead of him, and started wobbling. Saw my life flash before my eyes, as my sphincter clenched like a boa constrictor, and I backed off for the last lap craziness. I should have gone to the front to keep the group strung out but the bunched up pack was virtually impossible to move up through, ended up rolling in watching folks sprint in the jogger's lane for 35th place.

Plus - I finished my race.
Minus - My contribution to the race nonexistent

Posted By: harry bolick
@Tavern, Race-on, sprinters move up, Siggis sends out one more attack ALL follow as group slows in last third of horse alley,

Wait, the Tavern on the Green attack didn't survive? Shocking.

Harry, sounds like you rode a pretty solid race on Sunday. Top 10 in any race is to be commended. Good job! A little more fine tuning and experimenting and you'll get your money-spots. Unfortunately, if you pick the wrong wheel it can be the difference between say 7th and 4th. Keep up the good work though with putting yourself into good position for the sprint. No easy task on the fast winding lead-up to the Cat's Paw finish. Only you know if you burned too many matches before the final bonfire needed to be lit. Honestly though, you are almost always going to have to work a little harder than you wish you had to to maintain good position in the finale of a bunch sprint.

Yeah - not much to report on my end either. Dan was good about reminding me not to waste energy trying to move up into the wind but rather follow wheels. I made one bridge attempt to the two guys way up the road - one NYC Velo guy followed me, and after a bit I motioned for him to pull through. His response? "no, you gotta earn it". Uh...what? Dude, why did you follow me if you don't want to work? There's only two of us - there's no "sitting in" here!
That was that - the field soon caught us at the top of Cat's Paw and the NYC Velo guy just shrugged and smiled. I kind of gave up at that point - which I regret now - and rolled in with the pack on the final lap. :/

Posted By: ashleyBA: What if I didnt try and bridge, how would I have done in the sprint?
B: What if I worked harder to bridge so id have more time on the solo break aways wheel?
C: What if I didnt come through and work at all and attacked the solo break?

A: Ashley, one thing that's nice about the park racing, is that you get to race the same guys on the same courses week after week after week. That means, it's ultimately to your benefit to try different things to explore your limits, strengths and weaknesses. As a new person to the sport of road racing, you owe it to yourself to try different tactics from week to week. We all do frankly, but you especially! And if rumors of your 20 second PR of 1000 watts are true, I can pretty much guarantee that if you can get a little gap on the field (i.e. are you working on your "snap" and leg speed?), there is no one in your field who will be able to catch you and you can win John Malcolmson style in a sprint.

B: I think you are over-thinking this one. When you bridge, the goal is to get there as quick as possible. I don't think you could have cut 2 minutes off your bridge time, just by mentally "fully committing" to the attempt. I think your "in hindsight" lobe of your brain is playing tricks with you on Monday morning. But, if not, then, in the words of Cher from Moonstruck and "snap out of it!" Either go for the bridge or don't. Don't ride medium hard in no-man's land with no purpose. That's a waste.

C: If you didn't pull through, you definitely would have been caught. I mean, you were caught with you pouring on the power, so of course you would have also been caught if you sat on Seamus MacWon'tPullThrough's wheel. Also, I think the speed differential of you sitting on his wheel waiting for the field to gobble you up "earlier" would have been too great for you to come through for the podium. In fact, you probably would have rolled in around 15th by the time you got up to speed after sitting on his wheel.

The only other option I see for you in this scenario is that once you bridged, if you kept going hard straight past him, not allowing him to grab your wheel. You maintain your speed and forward momentum without giving pause only to discover that your co-leader is not capable or not willing to work with you for a top finish.

Thanks for your reply Marc,

A: You make a good point, I like the idea of trying new things on the same course and seeing where my strengths are suited in racing and I am loving this exploration! About a year ago I did a power profile test and it had me pegged as an all rounder, now I'm not so sure. I always thought of myself as better at hard 10 to 20 minute efforts or longer 50 minute TT efforts rather than sprints as I've never done any sprint training or sprinted much in club rides however I've been having some results in training that are making me think otherwise now. Its important to note my results have been in training and not under race conditions like the mighty Malcolmson but yes;
5 sec 15.826 w/kg
10 sec 14.076 w/kg
15 sec 14.04 w/kg
20 sec 13.306 w/kg

I think the most obvious thing is that in the 30 second sprint from which I got those numbers in early March my average power for the 3 minutes before I sprinted was;
NP
3.756 w/kg
Average Power
3.256 w/kg

Where as I expect the last 3 minutes during an actual race would be much much much higher (can anyone confirm this>?) Position plays a big part in that and I need to work on that through experience.

I do want to duke it out in a sprint though and see what happens, the guys that are winning the cat 5 races I've raced at or at least placing 1 2 or 3 seem to be fairly consistently the same guys so they are certainly strong and on there way up to cat4 quickly.

B: Your totally correct, I just checked my CP curve and I actually had my best power this year from 2 minutes 18 seconds through until 5 minutes 45 seconds so perhaps there wasn't as much left in the tank as I thought.

Your last option I didn't even think of and in hindsight is totally logical, he was probably hurting as much as I was and intact when I came through I let him recover rather than continue drilling it. If I'm honest though I'm not sure how much more I would have had and we were still a little way out from the finish.

Im registered for Central Park this Saturday and while I want to have a go at a sprint, I think it could be a good day to TT away or break away with someone as the strong guys capable of reeling people in should be at Battenkill that day and not in central park!

Appreciate the feedback and any advice please keep it coming.

Thanks

Posted By: Jules RoazenI'm chalking these "failed" breaks up to experience. Sooner or later one will stick. The key thing (from my perspective) is to keep guys waiting so that they can counter when breaks come back and to continue to race aggressively, and to learn who the guys are on the other teams who can ride a paceline and are willing to commit.

The big guy (Mike?) from ARC racing who got his spokes all fucked up right before the finale for example is a good break-mate and I was delighted to see him bridge up to me - sadly I was way cooked by then.

One last thing I've been asking myself is "am I wasting my best on the early doomed breaks?" It feels like everyone is full of piss & vinegar in the first 3 laps so my brilliant, watt-tastic moves are getting swallowed up like so much sound & fury. It is really hard to watch breaks go that are un or under represented by Kissena, but with a fit, furious Cat 4 field behind perhaps we should be a little more cagey with our matches?

All helpful stuff. Thanks Marc especially.

As for the above, Jules - I didn't do jack shit until lap four. I was mid pack or further back, just cruising. It was easy as can be. Lap four I moved up and started looking for something to counter. My first try didn't work. My second try did and it started the big move.

I was really happy with the way I raced; my only regret was not finding a way to save some matches to help Christian more at the end.

In light of Battenkill is there actually anyone else that couldnt make it?

Ill be racing on Saturday at Central Park in the 5's. Not planning on waiting until something happens, might start some moves right away and draw out some people who want to suffer wannabeebattenkillstylie. Wouldnt seem right sitting in the day of battenkill, not being there then riding defensively.

A