Kissena Forum Archive

Injury: Sprains, Strains, Breaks & Insurance

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JP, you truly carry the scars of a biking soldier. Sorry my number pinning didn’t bring you better luck. This is the worst kind of race report. Hope you heal up asap. 

BTW, you’ll be happy to know you’re always the voice in my head now in races to move up when I can before the climbs. Took your advice on Saturday and it was working until I flatted. All that to say, your generosity with the biking knowledge is one of the blessings of Kissena. And I hope the PT gods repay you kindly now. 
I went to see a orthopedic surgeon who specializes in shoulders today.

TL/DR:  Seems like I don't need surgery.

Getting there wasn't easy--it was in Scarsdale.  But it was either that or wait til Wednesday in NYC.  So the 8am in Scarsdale it was.  Walk to Metro North, walk from Metro North.  And the only way it happened was an internist raised the issue with the previous ortho I had seen in March/April.  That person thought I might need surgery.  

Essentially, while my type-three AC joint tear is big, nearly 2.5cm, it's not huge, and 100% recovery is likely.  Yes, I'll have a bump at the end of my right shoulder, but I already have one on the left.  More importantly, I currently have pretty good strength and decent range of motion without any tingling or numbness.  

This surgeon says the studies on type-three injuries like mine see, in the aggregate, no difference in results whether or not surgery is selected.  And surgery comes not only with more pain, longer recovery, but the potential for complications. 

So, his recommendation is I start physical therapy in two weeks.  He recommended a place that's a 10-min walk away, but he says there are at least two other neighborhood places that are pretty good as well.

So, that would mean probably 4-8 weeks of therapy and I'm scheduled to see this guy again two months from yesterday.  

And, as a bonus, he removed the six stitches in my shoulder.

I was curious about whether or not he thought it would be safe to ride.  He said that the pressure of the muscles on the shoulder would probably be pretty painful overall and would be inadvisable outside, because of reduced range of motion.  But if there was a way to ride indoors without putting pressure on the shoulder would probably be ok. 

In the meantime, I should wear the sling as much as possible and do occasional stretching exercises and ice a bit.  I should have asked about 'why icing' as the recent lit I've seen has questioned its value, but I'll give it a shot and see if it helps me feel better.  At least with this heat wave, it might feel good in general. 

the only question is whether or not to get a second opinion.  I'm of the mind to do so.  I already set one up for tomorrow morning, and headed to Scarsdale on the assumption that he was going to recommend surgery.  So, huge relief.  

Two weeks from today is August 18.  Guess the Ramapo Rally is out (8/21).  Not sure what road races are left in September, not that I could necessarily race by then.    But I'm starting to think about fall races and CX season.  
Glad to hear you got some good news regarding the shoulder injury. I hope the pt and recovery go well and you're able to ride again soon.
To mirror Joe, glad to learn this all sounds better than anticipated. And totally, let's do some CX -- Nationals is in Hartford again this year.
No surgery is always a good outcome! Also how many stitches? Damn. Heal up soon JP!
Hope you can get back on the road soon!
So, saw the second doctor this morning.

TL/DR: not so certain. This guy feels, on the balance, surgery might be better.

Interestingly, he started by getting an X-ray of both shoulders at the same time.  It's the first time this has been done.  

Turns out, the difference in the bones, between my right shoulder and left, seemingly because of the tear, is over 100%.  Though two other docs called my separation a "type three" this guy feels it makes it a type five.  

Also, this guy did not test relative strength between right and left arms--the previous orthopedist asked me to push against him to gauge strength.  This guy also didn't test range of motion.  

The concern is that I will have less strength and range of motion in my right relative to my left, if I don't do a surgical intervention.  (off-topic, seems I have a bit of arthritis developing in both shoulders. but they treated that revelation as normal)

At the same time, this doc seemed to think I had currently possessed pretty decent range of motion for someone seven days removed from this trauma, which indicates the body seems to be healing decently thusfar.  He also expressed surprise that my right AC joint was so flexible when he pushed against it.  don't know what that means.  Might have to send him some secondary questions.

Surgery seems to entail basically stitching in extra human sinew to bring the gap between bones down. And can be done now or if I feel that my strength and range of motion hasn't recovered enough after I go through physical therapy if I turn down surgery now.  Or, maybe I don't need it at all.  

Of course, surgery is 2-3 months of recovery and there's no guarantee I'd be at 100% of where I was before the crash.  
@mugwump
sent you an email
Healing is happening.

My shoulder still hurts, but much less.  Walking longer distances, like over an hour, I'm still using a sling, as having it hanging gets uncomfortable.  But a sling isn't super-comfortable either, so I'm alternating.

It's funny how interconnected the body is.  I can sleep on my back, I didn't expect to sleep on my right side, but I also didn't expect that sleeping my my left side would also hurt because there's no easy way to rest my right arm in a position that isn't impacted by the separation.

Saw a physical therapist Tuesday.  Working on strengthening the muscles around my shoulder as well as improving range of motion.  He says I can ride inside.  Just can't crash for several weeks still.

I put my bike on a stationary trainer monday and today.  Rode for a half-hour each time.  There's discomfort in my shoulder, but not lots of pain.  I take that as a good sign.  Problem is, indoor riding is still hella boring.  And the trainer is more boring than rollers. 

Starting to think about renting a smart trainer so I get get into Zwift.  




Do zwift, on a smart trainer, you will not regret it.
Recovery update:

I've been to four physical therapy sessions I think--lost track.  

I started riding rollers again Sunday, and went outside for an easy ride with my son today.  We're doing family glamping in Harriman this weekend (AMC, baby!), so as long as the car I rented fits my rack, I'm going to do some slow rides up there.  Patience when it comes to riding is tough for me.  

Shoulder still hurts, though much less.  I'm starting to get back to shirts I can pull over my head.  Still can only sleep on my back; I need a big pillow to support my arm when I inevitably turn on my side sometime between 5 and 6am.  

I also started the process of getting USAC's Spot Insurance to cover some of my medical bills--from the hand fracture in March.  I should know in about three weeks what the status of that is.  
Shoulder recovery update: Saw the orthopedist today.

TL/DR.  I'm good to go.

Longer explanation.  Absent of surgery, the ligaments of the AC joint will always be torn and the shoulder always separated.  But, this does not mean I should necessarily suffer any long-term discomfort, or loss of range of motion or strength.  All that can come back.  Also, the separation does not mean I'll develop arthritis in my right shoulder as a result (probably everyone my age (54) has some arthritis); because of the separation, arthritis shouldn't get any worse.  I'll always have a knob/lump on my right side.  

Crashing on it again won't necessarily or even likely make it worse.  Such a crash will likely inflame soft tissue and recede over time.

I can get surgery to repair.  And that can be at any time.  Surgery obviously entails some risk--there would be some drilling through bone, weaving of Kevlar strands and human sinew to bring things back together.  it could be that there are complications during or after.  Recovery could be slow.  A later fall on the shoulder could cause more problems.  The lump on my shoulder might or might not go down as a result of the surgery.  

So, I can race again.  

I probably should go to physical therapy for at least another month to help ensure that healing/recovery stays on track.  The doctor thinks the first 3-6 months are really important for recovery and the more that can be done/repaired/stengthened in this time, the better-off one is long-term.  

Record scratch. Freeze frame… yup, that’s me 
JP you know I always look up to you as a bike racer, so I decided to get my own right shoulder level 3 or 5 AC separation.

Caught my pedal on a well concealed rock mtn biking yesterday. Did the full Saturn V launch and landed on some rocks.
OH JULES NO!! 

take good care! 
@Jules  

While I'm sorry to see it, I have prepped Lisa for some of your recovery.  ;) (thanks to you)

Shirts and sweaters with buttons are in your future.  After I got back from the hospital, Beth went out and got me five Hawaiian shirts.  Now that it's chilly season, zip cardigans are the acme of style.  

If you sleep on your side at all, when you turn left, have a dense pillow handy to support your right arm.  

Feel free to call or write or post here with questions.
Oh no - get well soon Jules - hope you mend quickly.
Thanks guys, much appreciated. I got a laugh out of Garmin rating my “jumps” on the day. Can you guess which one was the final?


That sucks Jules. Heal up quickly 
Man Jules, what a doozy. I winced when I saw the X-ray. How's the pain? Upside is it looks like it'll mend well. Jeff C's shoulder icing machine was helpful for me. Also the humungous wedge pillow. 
Thanks John. The bone is fine but those ligaments are “gone foevah”
pain isn’t too bad if I don’t forget and reach for something, or worse - try and catch something I knock over. Fingers & toes crossed I can avoid surgery in the long run.
Anyone had a Medial Collateral Ligament sprain/tear? Jammed my knee skiing.  
Ugh. What's with all the Old Guard getting injured. It's like we're getting older or something.
Donotlike
Jules said:
Ugh. What's with all the Old Guard getting injured. It's like we're getting older or something.
Donotlike
I almost stuck the 720 Jules!
Hey, anyone hear of a crash that necessitated an ambulance out by Van Houten Farm in Pearl River Saturday?  

I have some information for that person(s).  
Ugh
Dumb one here…

I’ve been getting a very sharp pain on the right side of my knee recently. Based on nothing more than Google searches, I’m 90% sure it’s a cleat problem. I use speedplay, and I’ve been on the same cleats for about a year and a half without issue. 

It doesn’t look like there’s been any adjustment to the positioning, but I’m guessing the cleats have just worn and are letting my knee drift a bit. 

Before I replace this pair, has anyone had a similar issue/is there a general deadline for when speedplay cleats should be replaced? 
Richard - not a dumb question. Biomechanical pain issues are important to address before they become more chronic issues. 

Many bike fitters like speedplay because people tend to have fewer pain issues with them. Did the search turn up that people develop pain with worn cleats? Seems surprising to me that something about your biomechanics would have changed because the cleat is worn. Is it possible that something else has changed: perhaps your saddle height or tight hamstrings?

Have you previously had a bike fit? If so, can you compare it to your bike to see if anything has shifted on your bike? Nothing wrong with replacing the cleats. It's easy enough and you will know pretty soon if that was the contributing issue. 

I think that a bike fit is well worth the money if you don't solve the issue (and can afford it).

While I have been using speedplay for a few years, JP has been using them as long as I can remember. Maybe he has more insight. 


I've been using speedplays forever as well; I visited Pruitt once for a fit and he referred to "speedplay knee" when the adjustable pedals were left with too much float.

One thing that doesn't get enough print inches is that it's not only the hardware that wears down; as you age your body changes and what used to be a "good fit" no longer works. Regular fits from a trusted fitter (that part is much harder than you'd think) are a good idea.
While knee pain can be from a worn cleat, from my understand of how speed play cleats work, they would be less prone to this issue vs a look or SPD-SL cleat.

I know you mentioned today that you were ramping your riding back up.  Are you feeling any unusual tightness or soreness is your muscles after or during riding?  Some times coming back too quickly can cause weird stuff to happen.