Kissena Forum Archive

L&C Cup

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The following is my feelings on NYC park racing and my strategic methods on how to win them, note it is in no way suggestive of particular tactics for particular people, just some thoughts.

I know i'm new to the club but i've done upwards of 40 park races in my life, maybe more if you include FBF and Branchbrook.  There are, in my estimation, two ways to win a NYC park race; get in the break (or be the break), or win the field sprint.  we have a big team so we can really cover both possibilities pretty well.
 
Breaks happen in the 3/4s because they are now dominated by CRCA sub teams that have young cat3 guys as their team leaders who are too new to racing to have a shot for the money in the P123 field...that is fine and fair; we just need to watch out for - and not be dumb about - a break going up the road...their team-mates will just ride to front of the pack and sit up and they will be gone; it's extremely annoying and we cannot allow it. I won't allow it. Anyway, so breaks are the reason why guys need to be alert and we need (as a team) to have a few strong guys in the top 1/4 of the field at all times - guys who can get in the break, chase the break, counter attack, etc etc.  

speaking of chasing, the best time to attack is right after a break has been reeled in, since likely the ambitious souls in the field will all be hurting from either being chased or from chasing. if you see one team breaking and another chasing, SIT IN and see what happens (if more than a lap or two to go). Let them maul each other and if you have the wings GO when they're reaching for their water bottles as they think the field is going to sit up and the attack has been reeled in. This is when I myself will ride to the pointy end of the field and sit up like jack lalanne and counter everything in hopes that you can open a gap and stay away.


Ok, the other way a park race shakes-out - the dreaded field sprint.  So after 10 laps are in the books and every break was chased like savage dogs let loose on raw meat, we then know how the race is going to be decided.  Field sprinting really starts with about 3 laps to go when the sprinters start to make their way up from the back of the field by jumping from wheel to wheel and doing as little work as humanly possible...and I mean as absolute little. No pulls up front, no bridging gaps, no eating the wind, no calls to mom on her birthday. nothing. If done right you can find yourself in the top 10 guys as we pass the greek shed on the east drive on the bell lap. Somebody might attack going up prospect hill but it dosen't matter at that point. just grab a wheel and sprint up the hill in the draft of somebody who looks fit (choose wisely!).  If you see me, grab my wheel and go! After that the strong teams will start their lead outs as we pass the triangle by GAP and hopefully you chose well.  try to come out and around your draftee right after the cross walk at what would likely be Garfield place, the rest of the way to 3rd street is then downhill.  raise arms in victory salute. collect your money and whack it up with the boys. vainglory to you.

ok so there it is, easier written then done I assure you. tomorrow if you fancy yourself a strong rolleur stay towards the front, pointy end of the race and be alert. If you fancy yourself a sprinter, hang in the draft and pray that the all-rounders either got into the break or brought it back. ill be at the back looking for orange helmets in the break or looking to lead you out if need be. be alert, work as a team, know whats going on and don't do any work for anybody else.

Sean is a good sprinter, super sharp, maybe also borderline TLDR  :#;) -- thanks for taking the time!

This week been a bit swamped at work, didn't get a chance to write much strategy. But most of us have been riding and racing together, by now, we know what's up.

If we can, let's grab a few minutes before the race tomorrow. And, duh, communicate during the race.

As commented, Rob has the right ideas: Same efforts than last race, way later, when it matters, and from the top 15ish. It'll be the hotness. 

Also, important, anyone notice how much John Powell looks like Steven Kruijswijk? has anyone ever seen them in the same room? 
@Sean Hourigan that was a spicy breakdown. Looking forward to reading how it went!
Race Report: Felt freaking amazing... Hit a pothole, flatted, ended my race. Freaking pissed off, and I broke my saddle in the process (Glad its not the Enves!)

Also QUAD CITY!!!


How did the race play out?
Looking good!!
@Kevin Man awesome bumping into you @ Redbeard! 
This was a super fun/ hard race on my end. I checked my email to confirm what time the race was going off and (realize now) that I was looking at an email from March. So I thought we were going off at 6:40 instead of 6. While I am VERY dumb, I am also fairly punctual so I was at the starting line by 5:45 anyways. Ricky and Erick pinned me up real good last minute (🙏🙏thankyou🙏🙏). Good start. 

Kept to the plan of staying on top 10 wheels or so. I had the idea to try and keep the race moving and sort of achieved that by chasing down a bunch of breaks and stuff that looked like it might get away. I was probably too overzealous and could have let a lot more slide but it was fun to move around a bit. I was pretty toast coming up the final hill but tried to keep things moving up front and essentially finished at the back of the group. 

Lots of kisseñors making awesome moves and there was a lot of good communication. Great job by everyone!

We were here however totally outdone by Connor, who won the god damn Cat 5 race in dominant fashion. I’m sure/ I hope he’ll have a few things to say about that! 
From the gun, I found myself at the tip of the spear and then got my dumb ass off of it. The race then heated up and got fast for a couple of laps. A few groups got up the road occasionally and I did some blocking when a couple of Kissenas got off the front with a sizeable group. Nothing stuck.

The race slowed down a bit around 3 to go and then they neutralized us at 2 to go. It then became a messy free for all for the rest of the race. Kissenas were all together and in good positions at the end, but it was hard to find a decent line. Rolled in with the pack.
I did as little as possible, wheel-sharked my way to the top 10 on the last lap and went for the win but didn’t, you know, actually win. 9th, just out of the money. Story of my life. 

25.5 mph, Average power 252, normalized to 317....what kinda numbers are you guys posting at these races?  They are definitely harder than they used to be - not a whole lot of sitting up at all and a good amount of attacking all race long...

Tried to do as little as possible early in the race and just cook on the last lap. Worked with a couple dudes forming a break. We did tenish second pulls til the two of them crack. I kept the gas up and rode clear away. Coasted in after the hill to save some energy for the next day. 

Today I raced the Jersey devil. A gnarly hill 8 times around with an insane descent to follow. After a few laps, I realized this hill killed everyone for like 1k to follow. I decided on four I put a hard 30 seconds in and get away. Took each turn on the uphills to speed up so the bunch didn't know. Kept the gas on the down hills. Time trialed away from the field. I won by 22 seconds. I think it's time to cat up. The prize today was a 24 pack of beers and I was absolutely frothing with stoke when they brought that out. If anyone want to give me a hand with a few stinky beers I got plenty. 
1/2/3 report.

*32 pre-reg.
*Solo kissena rider in field of perhaps 40, probably less.
*Knew it would be a slow mph slog, with tempo riding punctuated with field splits and throw-down attacks until the break got away.  
*Josh Lipka was strongest guy in the field.  Didn't think I could handle him on my own, assumed everyone else would be watching him.
*Bicycle Habitat most coordinated team in the field, with three riders.  Resolved to watch Perlberg as he's both the strongest and the brains of the team.
*Mineola seemed to be riding against each other.  Three guys, one in the grey jersey of old man leader.  The other two seemed to be riding against him.
*Field broke up after about half-distance.  I was ready for the move.  Didn't have the legs to follow when I needed to.  10 got away. Aaaargh.
*The two Verge riders seemed to be riding for Vesselka's Sal Scotto Divetta.  And it appeared that once in the break, Sal flatted and got a bike from Mangoseed's Paul Burrowes.
*The remaining guys didn't want to ride.  
*I tried an attack with a friend, by plan, just before two to go.  We were pulled back.  
*He went again just before one.  Wished he had told me.  Would have gone again.
*with nothing to gain from a field sprint, I tried attacking on the flats on the last lap.  Didn't get away. Strung everyone out.  Rode as hard as I could until I got to the first curve on the hill.
*28th.  DFL.
*Sorry I didn't stop by Konditori, but I needed the modeling work...




25.5 mph, Average power 252, normalized to 317....what kinda numbers are you guys posting at these races?  They are definitely harder than they used to be - not a whole lot of sitting up at all and a good amount of attacking all race long...

Speed does seem a mite quicker than typical, but I would think others would have data on the matter.

As for power, you should give it in w/kg, as that's the real tell.  
JP - i sound strong when i just state my numbers raw, dividend without the divisor for all math types out there.  my best w/kg for an actual, performed 60 minutes is very pedestrian...maybe like 3.5. i need to swear off the taco bell for a few months.

For the last charlie race i did, i think it was a 3/4 race like last week, we caught the P123 field twice and had to be neutralized, and it was still close to a 26mph average when all was said and done.  when I was a "4" 5 years back we never caught the 123s, not once. never even saw their trail moto.

point im trying to impart - category racing in NYC is pretty fast right now, its like 4 races are like the old 3 races and 3 races are like old 1/2 races.
also, JP for the 17th if you're in town and racing I'll ride your field, masters or 2/3s your choice...
also, JP for the 17th if you're in town and racing I'll ride your field, masters or 2/3s your choice...
I'll take a look.
  • Saturday felt slower than usual, actually felt supah slow, but 40.5 km/h (25ishmph) isn't slow.
  • The previous L&C was over 42 km/h so maybe that was it
  • Faster races are safer, and more fun, obvs
  • Of note, how active Kissena is, appears to have a clear effect on avg speed
  • Overall, we probably still need to wait and attack later, when it matters, when it is harder
  • still...
  • Rob is the fire, attack attack attacks
  • Sean is hardcore at holding position in the last couple of laps. Kissena's best finisher in 9th place
  • Powell is Kruijswijk
  • Jeff was amazing at leading out the last lap, by following him, got a ton of last lap PRs, in both PP strava segments and 1 minute TP powah!
  • Kevin sharp, but hit that pothole hard
  • Erik and Ricky looking good too!
  • We still can be better at the front(ish).
  • Also, we can be better at reading the race, for example Sinkko, in green, wanted to get away, Angelo, in yellow, would have benefited from it. We could have use this -- some of us tried, but felt like others were oblivious. Who are the stronger riders? Be there with them. Help them win!
  • Fun game: from the power numbers above, I can guess Sean's weight pretty accurately ;)
  • As a team, we raced and communicated the best ever so far in 2019
  • Congrats to Connor, so much FIRAH!
  • Here's looking to more!
Let's go race bikes!
also, JP for the 17th if you're in town and racing I'll ride your field, masters or 2/3s your choice...
There's no masters,  so you can choose your poison.

I'll be in the 1/2/3.

Anyone else joining in the festivities?  Any category?
I'm racing the 3/4s for the first time in Sat. Anyone got some good tips for the race? 
Current 3/4 field:

Conor
Sean
Ricky
Kevin
Joe
Niall
Richard
Eloy

I'm sure there are a few other people still to reg... @ErikPfiffner

I wish I could be there to race with you guys, but I’ll be flying back from Austin that day. Give ‘em hell and have fun!
I'll be there in the 5s- looks like we have a few of us signed up
I’ll be in the 5s as well. First race for me
Kissena 3/4s, obvs the goal is for team to go for the W. 
- Big opportunity IMO: Connor, who's an unknown entity to other teams and has engine to slip away solo last lap if launched before the bell.
- Complimentary to that will be having the team line up on the front and blocking and staying there to lead out Ricky as a plan B. That means getting together near front two to go and staying there.
- Define clear roles and over-communicate on the road (to the point where it's extremely irritating... like this post). Mengoni used to have a killer Starbucks approach to managing the front and ensuring they had a rider in every break: ALWAYS having two riders top 10. Always. They facilitate this with this method: when someone up front is tired, they raise their hand to the sky. Another Mengoni moves up and relieves them after a verbal/visual hand off. Only put riders on patrol duty who won't get dropped from any break and have a chance of a podium if the break sticks.

An example of tactics when we had to defend Perlberg's FBF yellow jersey:
Perlberg's Proposal (thread here):
Sticking on Graham's wheel and never letting go:
Tito (you up for this tito?)
Jeff-O

Following early moves (first 1/3 of the race), taking turns:
Joji
Rich
Bill

Following moves in the middle:
Ian
Wojciech

Launcing Late attacks a-la Ryan Johnston
WDC
White

Saving for the sprint:
John M. (my one man locomotive)
Carl (sit on Graham's wheel - make sure you get around him)
Mike (duh! winning!)

A couple things to keep in mind:
1) If you get in a break with a Setanta rider - you do not work. Just sit in.

2) If you get in a break with Graham and not me - you slow it down and screw it up. You save all your energy and don't let him get away.

3) Stay in the top 15-20 at all times.

4) If Graham is in attack mode and he slides back after an unsuccessful attack (as someone was describing above) look for a counter attack with me.

5) anytime you see me off the front (if it happens) you block block block block

6) If it is all together with a few laps to go, we all start moving to the front and getting organized. Anyone who has any ounce of energy left should be hammering it on the front keeping the pace extra high.

7) Whoever is on my wheel in the sprint : you let the gap open

The players may have changed, but same war! 
— Brigadier General Development Guy John
I love it!!!!
@RichFreeman
Oh I'll be there. Need to burn off the calories before our little shindig.  Will be doing registration.
Some great ideas and notes Johnny.

Of note is the dynamic developed in the last few races:
  • Ribero will wear yellow, with a 1 point lead over Angelo
  • Angelo will finish 2nd no matter what
  • Angelo would benefit from trying to make a break happen, even with Ribero (Ribero has proven to be a better group sprinter, so isolating him makes sense)
  • If Angelo goes, specially with Ribero, we have to go too!!!! (duh)
  • if Ribero is not in the move, let him close it (or get him to offer you money ;))
  • If you chase it, don't bring the whole pack with you
  • Last race, Eritt Sinkko, in green, was super motivated to make a break happen too, watch those combos
  • Look for this move specially late in the race -- i.e 2nd KOM or Sprint
  • BE THERE WHEN IT HAPPENS
If it stays together, last lap, Ricky, you want to be glued to Sean's wheel for the sprint.

Everyone: ride in the front, top 15ish the whole race. 

Let's keep doing what we've been doing, communicating, racing as a team, being active, being aware.

Let's find a few minutes before the race to scrum on details.

And let's go race bikes!!
If a break forms around the second KOM, I am game to head into it. I am also good with relaxing and waiting, especially because I don't know much of the previous dynamic.
If a break forms around the second KOM, I am game to head into it. I am also good with relaxing and waiting, especially because I don't know much of the previous dynamic.
This makes total sense for you. 2nd KOM or 2nd Sprint, whichever is moar firah. It'll be the hotness.
eloy said:
If it stays together, last lap, Ricky, you want to be glued to Sean's wheel for the sprint.
With all due respect Eloy, that's not a hell of a lot different from shopping the sprint— if sitting on one "mega" wheel is the preferred tactic, then why not have Sean drop off Ricky at Ribero or Angelo's wheel with 3km to go (or whomever Race Predictor suggests (no offence Sean!)). I've podiumed that way a bunch of times. If we want to try and control it a bit for Ricky, we'd need two strong guys minimum for last k. Also, how about Connor's last-lap victories as a weapon? We could just keep him protected.
Everyone: ride in the front, top 15ish the whole race. 
I reckon this is a big match burner, how about trying out Mengoni method? Does require a big commitment from the team though.
Let's find a few minutes before the race to scrum on details.
With people doing reg I feel like this is a bit unrealistic. Sort the plan here with input from all, so everyone knows what they're doing and when. 
And let's go race bikes!!
Let's go get artisanal scone money!

Cheers Eloy!