Is that Myles on the left?

Posted By: Dan Reiners

I am always willing to try something crazy, unorthodox, just plain wacky....all in the effort to get a Kissena win. So the plan is to attack big on the hill in the last lap. and try to crush the legs of the sprinters, and maybe get a strong 2 person Kissena break up the road? There might just be something there.

As an outsider, I'm a little confused. I've read this thread multiple times and I don't see how this new plan is appreciably different than what you guys already do with a high degree of success. I mean, it sounds like you are just re-committing to the general concept of making the race hard with some sacrificial lambs (in this case Yacks), leaving your strong men to attack on a hard part of the course (Jules, Vollbach, Ryan) and hope they get away in a small group in which to sprint for the win.

It's not a bad plan, it's just the classic Kissena way of racing.

I think what would actually throw the field off, is if the team, as a unit, raced for the bunch sprint. That means no breakaways. You ride to keep the field together, and then do a proper leadout for a designated sprinter. That means, if you are in a break, you don't work...at all. You sit on, and Kissena's back in the field help chase. That would freak folks out. And if you guys had 6-8 riders leading it out coming out of the shoot into the flats before the finish. Other guys would just shit on themselves with excitement. A real leadout! Mario Cipollini's red guard reincarnated with our retro hip anniversary edition uniforms!

Re-reading the plan as posted above, the flaw I see lies in the assumption that you can take 5 of the team's strongest guys and eliminate them from the possibility of either placing or helping a teammate place in the bunch sprint by burning them out long before the finish. Of course, you guys have proven that you do have the legs to make the infamous "long bomb" move stick. And that's a credit to your strength.

But then who does that leave for Christian's leadout? Yacks talks about having 3-4 guys, and if he actually does have 3-4 guys, that would be pretty solid for a leadout. But if you've already taken, Yacks, Jules, Ryan, Vollbach, Dan out of the equation because they are either going for long-bomb efforts, or tired from contesting the intermediate sprints, then you have to be realistic about who is going to be left with nice 350-700 watt legs for a leadout. I mean, you might have a bunch of guys left, but are they "too pooped to pop?" as my dad is fond of saying?

I'm not going to argue with your plan as one that gives you a higher probability of winning on a weekly basis.

I guess, what I'm saying, is that all of you guys are crazy sick, super-hero strong, have awesome camaraderie and I would love to see you try something truly different. Soon you will be upgrading and you won't have these kinds of opportunities at team dominance. Race for the bunch sprint now while you can!

It sounds like Dan, with 2 helpers can continue to collect points and hold his green jersey lead, leaving the rest for sprint train duty.

Dan is going to be collecting points like a teenage Ferris Bueller at a penny arcade

@Marc

Last week, we didn't get into any breaks. Nothing, we sat in, and so did everybody else. Without us, nothing went up the road for more than a 1/4 lap. It was a BORING race. We achieved some of our goals, but I would be interested in attacking the hell out of the race, after the two sprints, and making it a really hard race, I would love to see a Kissena counter after the 2nd sprint, because it seems everybody is content to sit in and go 16mph after that sprint. I don't mind rolling around at recovery pace after my big effort, but I would prefer to see a few of the sprinter types hurting and blowing off the back on the hill.

Even in the April 28th race we didn't put riders out in front until the very end. We chased everything down, especially in the sprint and KOM laps. We only unleashed the fury at the very end with David and then Jules/Ryan countering.

Dan,

Gotchya...I see what you are saying now. I guess I kind of mushed together, in my mind, how the 1/2/3s usually race with how you guys have been racing tactically speaking. My bad y'all. This is what happens when I write forum comments at midnight after 12-hours in the resuscitation room on a surprisingly busy mother's day in the ER.

I guess it will be interesting to see if a Jules, Ryan, Dave last lap, last hill attack can stick. Normally that plan would never work, but since those guys have seriously legit power numbers in relation to your field and that kind of throws out traditional race tactics down the drain.

I would still consider how Yacks plays his last dying effort though. If he goes too hard in the stretch leading up to the last climb on the last lap, he runs the risk of getting a gap from the field that says, "what is that dude doing, he is going way too early, let him go." And effectively wasting his last match. But if he can crank it up just enough to keep the field hungry, tired and on his wheel, it's a decent set-up for a last lap attack.

You just have to make sure, as a team, you have enough strong guys to keep it going for a long time at that point. The climb will be hard no doubt, but will the rubber band snap at the top, leaving a select group of Kissena's and other teams to motor to the finish for the small group finish? Or will things spring back together, leaving our contenders completely empty for the finale, and Christian still has to freelance the finish?

Of course you can also embrace the full 1/2/3 Kissena style of racing, as Perlberg suggested and keeping throwing shit at the wall, all day long, until something sticks, then block.

Regardless, glad you guys are talking about this shit and planning to race as a team. It's why you rock.

It was great to be back. Definitely missing a bit of pop. Rolled off the line fast and Dioslaki passed me near the top of the hill and I didn't have the jump to get right on his wheel. And by the end, I was riding on fumes. The attack I made through the finish with the bell was one to hopefully whip up the field or spring somebody; I knew I didn't have enough to go far.

Interesting pattern. Mengoni took over setting up the sprints and Somerville shop the KoMs. We're going to have to figure out a way to take advantage of this. I had hoped on the second sprint that I could get keith away as he was fourth or fifth in line and I was just behind him as Mengoni's Sanchez ratcheted up the pace. So I eased off and got a gap. didn't work though. If we let these teams do this, it will be hard to get a break sprung.

I'm thinking next L&C, we should have John follow Dioslaki up the hill the first time; I think he could match Stephen easily and if we have one person rolling hard off the line, that could be three off the front right away. Stephen would probably work as well.

Rather, late and myopic RR:
Nice to see JP hasn't lost much form (or aggression) with an out of the blocks attack. Bunch kept him on a tight leash.
http://www.oneimagingphotography.com/Cycling/LucarelliCastaldiCupRace51212/Lucarelli-Castaldi-Cup-Race512/i-BxNRbNW/0/M/8O2T0089-copy-M.jpg
Vlad had a few goes at getting away early as planned
http://www.oneimagingphotography.com/Cycling/LucarelliCastaldiCupRace51212/Lucarelli-Castaldi-Cup-Race512/i-6zs5H9b/0/M/8O2T0042-copy-M.jpg
How did it go Vlad? I saw you put a lot out there on the hill and I think saw you attack after the downhill and there were a lot of riders that were coming through with momentum and were able to bridge. Maybe we try and get you away next time and then try hang on or fall back like those Axis guys do... I always think of Voight's line, that attacks that really stick are after a hard 1km attack. How you keep that gap is a different deal of course.
I checked in with Perlberg and Ragot a third of the way in. And it seemed like they wanted more attacks. I picked up where Vlad left off, I rolled past Mike and motioned for him to get on my wheel thinking I could launch him, but no go, it slowed so I got out of the seat and jumped off the front coming into the S/F. I really didn't want to dangle out there at 100ft, and was looking back to see if someone would come up, which is always a bit of an "am I hot or not" deal. Eventually a pitying Finkkraft came over so he could either laugh at my hill climbing or smile at the camera—both? I didn't go full blast on the hill, I was thinking about this thing I read about expectation, where you lower the expectation of the bunch in terms of effort to catch you, and then ratchet it up after you're away a while... didn't happen:
http://www.oneimagingphotography.com/Cycling/LucarelliCastaldiCupRace51212/Lucarelli-Castaldi-Cup-Race512/i-XsxFB4F/0/M/8O2T0144-copy-M.jpg
The Somerville guys reacted:
http://www.oneimagingphotography.com/Cycling/LucarelliCastaldiCupRace51212/Lucarelli-Castaldi-Cup-Race512/i-xgLxsqB/0/M/8O2T0147-copy-M.jpg
And although we still had a small gap, Finkraft wanted to pack it in after the climb because those two Somerville guys seemed pretty intent. There was the expected counter which didn't get too far, story of the day. I think I got a few badges towards futile attack guy who likes to be photographed while looking staunch:
http://www.oneimagingphotography.com/Cycling/LucarelliCastaldiCupRace51212/Lucarelli-Castaldi-Cup-Race512/i-8Z9tT2B/0/M/8O2T0327-copy-M.jpg
I agree with JP, there was a lot of controlling the front by Somerville, United, Mengoni revolving around the intermediate sprints, how can we capitalize?:
http://www.oneimagingphotography.com/Cycling/LucarelliCastaldiCupRace51212/Lucarelli-Castaldi-Cup-Race512/i-htJLvR3/0/M/8O2T0206-copy-M.jpg
I am in awe of the way Perlberg can bridge. He doesn't seem to attack very hard, just kind of rolls off the front, but then seems to attach a hook to the back of the break and reel them in with his steady (450W?) effort. I saw Dioslaki jump past him but he was not distracted and just stuck to his Indurain-like tempo until he latched on. Anyway, after his successes of late he is a marked man—words to that effect mumbled by someone in the pack.
http://www.oneimagingphotography.com/Cycling/LucarelliCastaldiCupRace51212/Lucarelli-Castaldi-Cup-Race512/i-nPkT6fR/0/M/8O2T0256-copy-M.jpg
As Mike noted, coming into the finish it was wild to hear some dufus screaming like he'd just got out of the looney bin, because he was OMG! Boxed in! Also, car parked on the road.
I have to say, given that the majority of races end in a bunch sprint I'm a bit frustrated that our team can't create a cohesive formation for a sprint finish...we don't need to be the fastest team, it’s about being the team that is in control. Granted all these guys sprinting have an extra gear or two, but I couldn't even get near this because of some leg searingly effective lead-out. 17th place, woot. If we're averse to the craziness of the sprint, then let's make another plan—maybe we just forget the sprint altogether and try and launch Mike after the hill. On that front, what is the value for our team to chase down breaks? If we had a Quiterio I'd get it, but if anything shouldn't we be leaving gaps?
http://www.oneimagingphotography.com/Cycling/LucarelliCastaldiCupRace51212/Lucarelli-Castaldi-Cup-Race512/i-gcQxwmZ/0/M/8O2T0437-copy-M.jpg

@JP Next time I think an early break could be cool, but I also wonder, knowing my own ability in relation to the bunch, if it's kind of like saying "I can't win this so I'm going to try and commit race suicide by trying to stay away for 15 laps". Or are you saying we're better off to go at it from the get go—sacrifice a few of the team early to try and wear down the other teams? I feel it'd be better odds to save energy for the last third where most of the fireworks usually happen and really go "all-in" at getting Perlberg or Joe in a break and then defending like we've done successfully in the past. I of course defer to your vast database of park race experience JP.

1. Stalin Quiterio (Somerville Bicycle Shop)
2. Ceasr Marte (GS Mengoni)
3. Anthony Lowe (WS United)
4. Gavin Robertson (CRCA/Foundation)
5. Amaury Perez (Arco Iris)
6. Elvi Rodriguez Garcia (Somerville Bicycle Shop)
7. Jurandir DeAlmeida (Metra/Cycles 54)
8. John Durso (Colavita Racing)
9. Sergio Atocha (Champion System p/b Stan's No Tube)
10. Gilberth Gomez Valverde (Somerville Bicycle Shop)

John,
Just trying to think of different ways to make the race harder. You've got a great 1m effort, which suggests to me you could match Stephen out of the field on his inevitable attack. If we already have someone several seconds up on the hill, then there could be a minimum of three up the road. If you can add to the rotation for just a lap and then sit up and fade to the field to recover, you might have helped an early group get established, which then hopefully gives our other rider in the break and the other people up there, a little more breathing room, and the field less reason to sit up. Somerville and Mengoni will then possibly have to burn some matches before they want to do their leadouts--or they'll have people up there as well, which means they might not chase, making the long bomb look like it has a better chance of sticking all the way.

@ John

I've been also frustrated with our lack of end game. I'm not sure what to do about it. I have not been much of a factor at all.

two ideas:

1) I think it might be beneficial to just hop on the WS United train. I know marc and eric have been bumping elbows with them but perhaps we can just learn a thing or two about setting up for the finale from them. and then come around when we get to the temple and use our power to challenge them. Just an idea. they seem to gather on the left by the pothole section on the west side.

2) I might be most useful dragging other kissena guys up to the front as opposed to actually doing something in the train.

I've made a few really good bridge efforts that I have been happy about this season. I don't think I've failed once. This certainly builds confidence. Last season I was getting stuck in the middle a lot. It certainly takes a strong mental commitment to go for it, but knowing how great it feels to catch the group and get in their draft certainly helps. I also think about how much it sucks to not have Kissena representation in the break and being relegated to chasing mode. boooo.

I try to keep this piece of advice Charlie I. gave awhile ago in mind: "I make two hard efforts, one in warmup and one to bridge up to the winning break." of course, I have never been that patient but when I see a good looking break out there I must get across to it. I haven't done this without lots of help, usually eric or jp bringing me to the front or stringing out the bunch. That particular bridge effort was 10 seconds @ 1050 watts right into a minute @ 485 watts.

I'm upset to learn I am a marked man. I actually doubt that. Even so, I will just have to be smarter and more selective about my efforts. Brian Breech is a marked man but he still gets results.

I think my end game is getting better as I am riding well enough to be there to lead out and I have been doing so the last couple of weeks. That being said, I haven't been leading anyone out (doh!).

If I am coordinating the leadout at the end, then people need to see me and get on my wheel as I come by. They then need to make sure that they stay there and if they get knocked off, they need to let me know so that the train can be adjusted to get them back on.

Further, we need to be absolutely sure that some people are expecting to sprint. I'm not that concerned that we all try to do something during the race, I just want to make sure that people know their roles.

I do not want to sprint in the park, but I am back to having leadout mojo. So, I'll do whatever beforehand and then take charge of the sprinters in the last couple of laps.

Mike when you bridge how far ahead is the group you are bridging to? I often imagine these efforts at "chase back after a flat" length but it sounds like they are acutally much shorter.

Longest one I think I started the chase at the top of the hill and caught midway down the downhill.

I usually try to react quickly enough to threatening moves. If they too far ahead, it just ain't happening.

Bridging:

you have to know yourself:
1min
2min
3min
5min
10min
20min

Basically, you need to get a gap and make it across with the effort level you can manage. Of course, you have to be going fast enough to catch the break. So if your 1 min power won't get you across, you're not making it. So, when you go is up to the varying circumstances of the race. If you try to get across quickly and then die, can you keep hustling across. Its very variable.

I often try to jump across 10-15 sec gaps and do so quickly because if after 1-2 minutes and I'm not across, I'm likely not going to make it.

So, the long and short of it is that you need to judge it based on how fast you can go.

ER,
The difficulty, to me, is not so much knowing oneself. It's first, understanding how far the gap is. then it's knowing when to make the move. then knowing how hard to jump and when to dial it back to the bridging effort. not sure how to teach this.

Mike,
I don't think following WS United gives us much other than getting us to the front. Though that alone is worthwhile. I've found they don't really go fast enough to string out the field; they just go fast enough to keep two leadouts and the sprinter in position--the field defers to them only to rider #3, usually Ricky. If following Jermaine and Paul is what it takes to get people to the front by the temple, then yes, it's a strategy. (don't follow Ricky as people fight for his wheel) But at that point, if we've got two guys and a sprinter, then we should duel them by trying to out-ride them leading into the sprint. If we sit back in positions 4-6, we're going to get swarmed.

BTW, did anyone else notice in John's photo-storytelling that in pic #4, both Somerville guys and FinKraft are in the jogger's lane? Or is that an illusion?

That's an illusion, it's at the top near GAP where the exit lane crosses over.

John,

Thanks for re-igniting the final sprint conversation under the 1/2/3 assess. After two years of trying to convince the team that we can do a leadout, we can control the front, and two years of basically getting the finger from my teammates, I gave up and focused trying to get our cat 4s to commit to working on a final leadout train.

In fairness to my middle finger-wielding teammates, last year we were very successful with the traditional throw shit at the wall until a breakaway sticks, so the relative few races that ended in group sprints, where we didn't factor didn't seem like a huge loss. This year though, we're seeing a return of the mass sprint finales, so I think we need to address how to give ourselves the best chance to place in the money in these situations as well.

In my ongoing struggle to regain what was, my wife is making sure I'm getting on my bike tonight after my shift, so I can''t spend too much time typing up how I think it should go down here and now, but let me just say that the hardest part of this is the coordination and agreement between all the parties.

More later...

Plus, we'll be doing more leadouts and sprinting drills at the crit workshop this Saturday. First sprint will be at the new Tenafly town line...I haven't got the GPS coordinates to broadcast as Jules requested, but I promise there will be plenty of notice before you have to gear up (or down).

I had a conversation with Ricky about Saturdays finish.
I thought I had Lenny and john on my wheel and I took them up the right then over to the left side where united had a train. I sat next to Jermaine at 3rd wheel. Getting the side draft and all that. Jermaine pushed me on the hip three times to move me away. I just moved back. I thought it odd, but I had a leadout to do.

When I pulled off, there was no Kissena to be seen.

So later I figured out the pushes, Jermaine thought I was trying to break into the line.

So, back to Ricky. We figured out what happened between us and he was wondering why I just didn't push into the train. His feeling is that with the power I showed, I can break into the places in the sprints. I agree.

That also.means I can leadout again. So see my above post. If I don't tire myself out early, I can give good leadout or get leadout.

Lets coordinate.

Marc,
I don't think you gave a fair assessment of what's been going on. The issue has not been not thinking about it. The issue has been #1 few have wanted to do it. #2 few have been able to do it. Lenny was getting pretty good at it for some time, but Saturday, I'm guessing, was one of his first park races of the year.

As you know, I've been able to get myself to the front of just about every park race leading up to the sprint for the past several years. I don't have the patience or the jump to match sprinters when teh lead into the sprint is slow. When the lead is fast, I have at least a chance. So on the slow ones, I've been practicing. In two of the March park races, I ended up leading out the sprint because the leadouts were too slow, I rolled to the front at 500 and I jumped too late to make an early move. I'm happy to help others, but others have to be on my wheel.

Myles, no matter what shape he's in seems to be able to get himself ot the front for the finish as well. We just have to get him out to the races.

WDC and Mike seem ready.

If Eric is ready, that's super. Can you get yourself up there?

also....JP pointed out in my last post, I kind of went to Jerky-town (and not the tasty Jamaican kind, the jerk kind). Not my intention. Sorry fellas.

I think we all agree, that if we want it, we can make it happen. Hopefully my legs will be in position to lead by example next time out.

p.s. the hands off the bars pushes have to stop. they are dangerous and illegal and unacceptable. If Ricky or anyone else wants to defend their position by leaning into someone trying to bump into their train, that's fair game, but taking hands off bars, to push someone away, or push themselves into our awesome train next race? Totally foul.

marc: you buggin!

i would LOVE to participate in a cat 123 leadout and i'm quite heartened by the fact that i was able to be in the first 10 wheels of the train past two park races i've been in. granted, the first one i stopped pedaling when the argybargy started at 200meters, and the second one i was pushed out of, but i'm getting increasingly comfortable getting and staying at the front in that last mile.

let's all start taking the leadout seriously and communicating about it in the race.

@Marc

my balls are starting to drop a little, so I'm almost ready for it. Ideally, I wish I'd practiced the whole bunch sprint thing more as a 4 and in some 3 only races, but that just isn't really happening. So I'll just man up and go for it.

Posted By: mperlbergIdeally, I wish I'd practiced the whole bunch sprint thing more as a 4 and in some 3 only races,

Me too, me too.

Sounds great. I'll crosspost this to Marc's crit workshop thread. Practice is key for sure. Excuse my Franken-writing...

The Form Up
Getting your riders together can be surprisingly difficult in a race. Some may be in front, some the back, right, left, center, they will be all over the place. Designate one rider to set the train in motion. During your pre-race meeting (yea, you should have one!) decide who and when the team will organize. Typically the designated sprinter will have another teammate in attendance throughout the race so that rider is the most likely candidate to start the paceline. The rest of the team must quickly slot in around this duo. Initially you can simply surround the sprinter as your team moves into their designated place in the rotation. Once you have a cohesive formation it’s time to do your thing. So do YOUR thing – get out in the wind, away from the rest of the field, or at least on the periphery. Don’t play games with position, execute your strategy and dominate the finish.

As Ragot noted, It’s the duty of the riders at the back of the train to communicate—loudly and clearly—to those ahead. When Lenny and I were pinched off last week, we should have yelled at Ragot to let him know—he doesn't have time to look under his arm to see if we're latched on. The whole time the sprinter should be yelling "hold it Ragot", "slow/speed up Ragot", "move right/left Ragot (to protect road space)", "pull off to the left/right"... the rest of the train has to be acutely aware of what is happening around them and communicating it verbally the moment they see a threat or an opportunity (maybe you've created a gap). Last person shouts forward how many teammates are together in the leadout train, allowing the front guy can gauge how far they need to take it).

Plan and practice how you will manage your 1-2 min effort, you'll be a lot more tired at the end of the race, if you're drilling it and feel you're fading too early, dump it into a bigger gear, scoot back in your seat and engage the larger muscle groups hips/quads and hammer it, most of what your feeling is your head overriding your body and you'll find if you focus you can squeeze out a few extra seconds of full power.

The goal of a leadout is to protect the sprinter until it’s time for him or her to make the final dash to the line, which is usually 200 meters before the finish. Using up riders too soon and leaving your sprinter in the wind is a common mistake, but you're aiming for both aerobic and muscular exhaustion. Practice 90 second efforts, afterwards the sensations should be godawful; your BPM's are still increasing even after you stop, your legs are cooked, you might want to puke, you might grey out a bit, but you still have to keep pedaling and holding your line so as not to be a menace to the pack. Manage your effort, but focus on your goal/spirit animal not the sensations.

If there's a cross wind use it to give just enough room for your train to echelon (no more) and know which way to pull off (into the wind). Put the other teams in the gutter! Or force them to come along side you and shelter you.

A respected principle of field sprinting is that it’s bad etiquette to interrupt another team’s train, so it’s fair to threaten anyone who gets in your space. One good tactic to prevent being passed in corners is to protect your inside—that is, ride on the inside of the road and swing outside to set up for a turn at the last possible moment.

Don’t go faster than necessary. Before the all-out acceleration begins, there’s no need to push the pace. Anyone who tries to rush by with a few people is doomed, because they’ll have to fight the wind for too long and will fade before the finish. For this reason, don’t panic if anyone attacks. Just slowly reel them back and continue with the leadout at a comfortable pace.

As the finish approaches, the risk of getting jumped by another team becomes more relevant, so the leaders should grow increasingly willing to lift the pace to prevent being passed.

How soon should you start using up riders?
That depends on how long each can ride on the front, so it makes sense to measure backward from the finish. For example, if you have four leadout riders, and each can sprint on the front for 350 meters (a sub 25 second effort at 50km/31mph), then the all-out assault shouldn’t start any earlier than 1,400 meters (about a mile) before the sprint. But if you have only two leadout guys, you can't hit the wind until you are much closer to finish. Ideally you have more people in the leadout than necessary so you can stack the sprint. The Prospect Park course has that downhill, then false flat uphill, that makes these efforts challenging.

Would you guys agree that our train should kick-in at the white columns?

Our train kicks in when the wistle blows baby... the rest is just organization.

Posted By: Jules RoazenOur train kicks in when the wistle blows baby... the rest is just organization.

You can do that when you have 37 riders in a 10 lap race.

Anyone know why the L&C Cup PP races are moving to 6am start time? I wasn't thrilled with the new 6:15 start time. It would be nice if the reason was to make the races longer but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Then the answer would be to get the races done earlier. Or we're all just slower therefore we need more time to complete the races.