Okay, strategy crap. I'm not going to be a part of the problem, so for those of you not reading my words because you aren't checking the forum, well too bad. I'll start the discussion by saying this, we've got a nice crew of guys with experience but maybe a few too many who aren't up to legit winning form like Perlberg and JP. That said, those guys should not be chasing down early race bullshit. If you let either of them, they will ride threshold at the front of the field for laps and laps and laps, because it makes them feel good and then wonder why they didn't have any extra snap to go with Breech with 5 to go, or come around some James Vincent douche in the sprint. That said, based on what I think I know about folks fitness/experience...

I'm thinking myself, Keith, Myles and maybe Strika (I haven't ridden with him this year), control the nastiness on the early laps. We'll do double duty though if Perlberg is feeling protective of his KOM kit, giving him leadouts with the addition of Ragot in there for some more muscle and experience. (Last year, I had a tough time hearing/noticing when the sprint laps were coming, so please, everyone, let me know if the damn bell just rung.)

Joaquin, Katz, Perlberg, Ragot, JP should be attentive in the middle phases in case all our early race antics softens up the field enough to spring lose a serious move. I'm assuming Joaquin and Katz, have some good fitness and can generate some serious thresholdy watts, but will be lacking some race-honed snap and leg speed as of yet. Meaning good guys to be in breakaways that make the field hurt chasing. Maybe those guys can think about initiating their own moves, to take the "I need to be super explosive to get on that dude's wheel" out of the equation.

If we can get a nice mid-race breakaway going that stays out there, say 2-5 laps, that might really set it up for the field's best riders (including ours), to get away with a counter.

If it's clear that it is going to be a group sprint, please, please please, everyone to the front. If you can. And be part of the stringing out action starting on the big downhill and keeping it going. Ragot just might be our best bet for a good sprint based on the fact that I think he's got the experience, plus he's got more than a few races under his belt giving him the snap and leg speed needed. Plus, he currently has a serious hair up his ass about Ricky Lowe and wouldn't that be sweet to ride that guy to the finish line? Of course, Lenny has always been a go-to guy when large testicles are required, so if he's feeling good, he might be the guy too.

Tangentially, Perlberg. If you care, figure out who's nipping at your heels in the sprint competition and point them out to us, just so we can ride defensively against them, if we have to.

Okay, there's plenty more to say, but that should do it for getting the ball rolling at least.

I wish it were sound cycling team tactics to FUCK SHIT UP. Alas, it is not. As such, until Dan Reiners tells me otherwise, my plan is to do the sprint #1 attack by the temple so Yack and John can follow Rich's counterattack to a 1-2 sprint points domination.

For the second half of the race, I would like to contribute in a flexible manner however I can. I'm chatty in races, so we can figure it out real-time.

Marc, sounds like a plan. I am going to try for some KOM points. So I will stay out of the wind but close enough to the front to react if need be to any early moves that look promising.

Bremer of foundation has also 5 points, but who is going for points hasn't really shaken out yet.....

^^
Jeff, I like the sentiment, but I feel like most riders tactics continue to be just that style. Racing to not be left out, but never really actually racing, which is for all intent and purposes just F***ing S*** Up for the rest of us.

That being said, I think we have a couple of goals again this week to beat the disruptive forces arrayed against us. 1) Defend the polka dot jersey, 2) Win this race. 3) Keep the sprint points distributed amongst enough people that Yacks can remain in the hunt. Familiarize yourself with who's in the numbers for these contests and also who else has been contesting them.
http://spasport.com/lucarelli_&_castaldi_cup_overall_standings.htm

A quick rundown:
Jacobs brothers are going to still be gunning for both the climbing and the overall, if they've not been upgraded yet.
Hudson Furniture has 5 guys, and they are going to be working very hard to keep the field together and give Misha another shot at the sprint, in order to hang onto the overall leader's jersey.
JV is going to be arguing amongst themselves for 9 laps and eventually will get out of their own way for Gustavo in the final sprint.
CRCA : L.Raphael - Leopard Cycles p/b Dave Jordan Coaching featuring J Giles Band & The Original Cast of the Banana Splits team, will probably present a united front in the sense they will chase EVERYTHING down, and bring the entire field with them whenever anybody is 15" off the front.
The unattached Errol McLean is probably in the hunt for the overall, as well.
With a smattering of CRCA teams and Mexico-NYC team, to add to the landscape I think we have quite a bit to watch out for here.

Tactics coming in part 2

Alas...I will be gimping around Prospect on Saturdy...and in the green jersey I might add as a certain sandbagger has upgraded...I will see how tings go in the 1st sprint...if I am shit. I will protect John on the 2nd sprint and give him a leadout. that's all I gots.'

a very scabby and sore
yack

Splitting into two teams for this makes sense right now.

Team 1: KOM team
Joseph Mueller
Ryan Johnston
Patrick Grehan
Joshua Meny
James Nelson
Gideon Sorkin
Christopher Conde

Your job is to stick to the Jacob brothers, deliver Joe to the front at the two key moments in the race, and attack the Hell out on the KOM laps to make the other teams expend energy chasing us down. There is a second job of this team. Establishing a counterattack breakaway after each of the KOM sprints. So figure out who is going to be in in what role in each sprint. I suggest alternating roles so that it isn't boring, but make sure you all know exactly what you're going to be doing.

Team 2: Green Sprint and overall win
Richard Henning
John Malcolmson
Jeff Owens
Richard Petersen
Daniel Reiners
Todd McLoughlin
Carl Nelson

This team will be setting up for some good times in the sprint. John and Rich H, are both flying right now. Jeff and I can handle leadout duties, if we can get some help from Todd and Richard P, to do suicide attacks after the Greek temple on the course and give folks something to chase down, and help string out the potential sprinters.

Once our sprints are over. Team 2 should also look to help Team 1 with counterattacking after the KOM. The field really gets strung out and if you can get over the hill in the top 10 or so positions, just keep going hard since most people dial it back immediately after the cross walk and the field can lose a lot of momentum. This gives attackers a shot to get a big gap fast.

On the final lap, if we're together (highly likely), we should be looking to go for some sort of leadout. Of course so will Hudson. After the last time up the hill, you should be coming up, on the right side (outside of the park). Since there are more places to move up on that side, and you stay out of the jogger's lane. We shouldn't get to the front until around the temple. Usually the split caused by the crappy pavement after the downhill is a good opportunity to move up quickly and move to the front. We should be ready to dial it up right after that, and start stringing the field out. It is only 750m or so from there, so if we can go full steam for that with 3 or 4 guys ahead of John or Joe, and burn that leadout out by the middle of the rise. Our sprinter for the day should be able to hold off much of the field from there.

guys:

it is unlikely that i will make this

good luck

imho: michael needs TWO leadout men for the KOM - we left Eric R to do too much heavy lifting, and as big as his effort was, he could definitely use another a hand in dragging michael to the top

Well as the father in the house and the only driver, I am used to heavy lifting...

We'll defend again, but we should be looking to get into the winning break more than worrying about the jersey. Alex Bremer isn't pre-registered and the field is closed out, so I think Mike needs to check who is trailing him.

As for helping Mike, I actually went to get the points alone and Mike came up to me. This put me in the uh-oh situation of either slowing for him (which I did) or continuing. It didn't work. I don't know if we'll have more success in polka dots than yellow. I will be his helper monkey and shepherd again. I will not sprint, but will happily lead out at the end. I also will attempt to get into breaks after the KOM points are over. So, who covers the early moves?

I think I can take care of Mike solo if he stays near the helper monkey.

There was a little snafu last time. Eric was on the right and I was on the left on Joaquin's wheel. I couldn't get across to him. We discussed the lead-out for KOM the previous day. I thought "oh shit, there goes my lead-out" and chased after him. Obviously, I should have let him go. Instead, he waited for me, I chased across, and died after coming off his wheel.

Covering a break (it did have all the right players) on the previous lap put me in the red to begin with so it was a combination of the two mishaps. I don't think I'll second guess chasing Brian Breech, Durso, the long haired Van Dessel guys, and others, but I will be more patient this weekend.

Eric and I have yet to perfect our telepathic communication system. We are working on it.

"who covers the early moves?"

As I said in my earlier post, myself, Myles, Keith and Strika should probably be the guys watching the early stuff.

@William DC. I agree, two guys for KOM leadout duty. In my earlier post, I said that the early guys (namely, me, Myles, Keith, Strika) plus the addition of Ragot for experience and horsepower should be on the lookout (listenout?) for bell laps and Perlberg. We don't need all of us, but if we are all trying our bestest to be there, then I'm guessing at least two of us will be there at the front, leaving a little room for the "shit fellas, I got stuck back in the pack that lap after I did [fill in whatever awesome team move you did just previous that killed your legs and required a little more rest]" moment.

Let me also say, I'm feeling good and positive about this race. With our numbers and the guys showing up, we should get someone in the money for sure. Myles and I, even if we're down on fitness, have shown we can cover all that early race bullshit. JP, Ragot and Myles have the snap and fitness to go with the real deal stuff. Keith is an aggressive muhtha-fucking diesel and races better when he's had less than 4 hours of sleep anyway, so I expect he'll be a hair up someone's ass.

And then we have the group of guys who haven't raced/ridden a lot with the team this year in CP/PP. Joaquin was clearly the team's strongest racer at the end of last year with his top finish at Bear, and I expect he'll be at least as strong as Myles and I. I don't know, but I'm hoping Strika can help share the early race load with Myles and I. Katz, even sick at 50% can be dangerous.

And hold the phone...I just checked the pre-reg list again. We've got a few more guys. I hear Rene likes to sprint, and so I'll assume he has good acceleration and leg speed and if he keeps up front that can be good for mid-race bullshit that Myles and I are too tired to chase, or post sprint lap counter attacks. Jan Micko can be counted on to ride hard at the front all f-ing day long. Seriously, I think he would be perfect for shutting down any mid-race splits, where say, we have just two guys up the road in a group of 20 or more and we don't like our odds (like if I'm one of those guys, you bastards better chase that shit down, because I'm going to be sitting my ass on the back of that group, just in case we stay away and need me to sprint for cash. And actually, I'm pretty confident in that situation, I could get in the money, but still those are terrible odds and wouldn't want the team to protect that kind of move). But I digress.

Anyway, we've got 11 Kissena's and that roughly 4 times as many as we had at most spring series races and if we could place with 2-4 guys this spring, we've got no excuse tomorrow.

Jan can sprint too, he just doesn't always like leadouts. But, if it comes to a sprint, we need to get guys near him and hammer it home, he'll do the rest. Then getting him to split money will be the difficult part.
E

Marc, you seem to be all over this, as defacto road captain can you list our assignments so we can quickly divide responsibility and communicate in the morning. (and send it over email). My 2 cents is that it is important to keep a few in reserve for the most promising moves later in the race.

Marc: early moves
Myles:
Ragot: KOM helper.
Perlberg: get KOM points, try to survive for post KOM moves.
JP:
Rene: sprinter!
Lenny:
Strika: early moves
Joaquin:
Jan:
Keith:

Monkey iss me. Whooo whooo.

Gentlemen,

looks like we've added 2 more to our merry band of pranksters. Jeff White and TwoYacks. Yacks wants to try for the Green sprints. Lets hope he has recovered from his lesson that the world is a dangerous place once you leave the safety of your basement, we'll look for his signature attack from 750m and hold the entire field off. We will block as effectively as possible, and prepare to counter if that is unsuccessful.

Jeff, how about you become Misha's shadow. I know I said that Hudson is looking to keep Misha in the jersey and keep the race together, but we want to make sure we've got somebody on him, if he decides he needs to get away from the group. We want to make sure somebody is there to be all over him.

Great plan Dan. A few extra points/suggestions:

- Jacobs brothers out.

- I have it on good authority that Aviv has some form and will likely counter Misha after the sprint. Our break artists should be ready for this. We have huge numbers, if we want to hurt legs should we have dedicated 2-man "counter team" in addition to our early attackers? Whenever the pace slows/break is bought back they immediately attack two-up.

- As you said, final sprint probable especially given it's going to be fast up the hill—predicting 52F, fog, 4mph side/tailwind into the finish.

- I'd defer to your decision El Capitan, but I'd feel better if we had a wheel order for sprint train. Just going by max wattage of these drills, I reckon Joe then Rich could be the last two lead-out guys then me (because I have the aerodynamics of a brick), Yaks, Rich and Ryan sprinting off my wheel. I'd also be happy to punch it at 350m if Rich/Yaks are feeling it. That would definitely mess with some minds.

- We need to disrupt/pass the Hudson train somehow. They have been successful at PP and Floyd and seem to be perfecting their game. NYVelo will be reworking their train too I'm sure. Potentially a very mean drag race! Check the Franken-map for distances.

- Lastly, I could be wrong, but I'd feel safer going left side after downhill—right side feels fishy flat-out and there's a bit of gravel (as Murray can attest), plus it feeds you into more potholes further up. Charlie has been setting the cones left into the lane there as well, so there's room (although the negative is it makes moving up harder). Let's pre-ride mañana and make a call.

@Dan: I don't think Misha is a breakaway threat. I'm pretty sure he's a pure sprinter, so a dedicated Kissena doppelganger might be a bit overkill. In other words, he's no Joe Jacobs.

I'm hearing Malcolmson on the post sprint-points attacks. I know my my buddy Jules and another of his Siggi's/NYVelo mates are going to look for moves then, and I'm sure the strong men from all the teams will be doing the same (Van Winkle [Hudson] is racing this week -- guys who have ridden against him know he's strong). I think this is a great opportunity for someone like Joe Mueller to try to get away with them, and preferably with another Kissena. I would happily be that other Kissena, or just as happily just drill the SHIT out of the front after the finish line, so legs are in deep pain by the middle of the uphill, a perfect time to attack. Guys going for sprinters points have to be very attentive not to go off the back if this goes down.

Thoughts?

John,

For the record you are a fast brick.

I like the wheel order idea, though I know whatever plan we put into place will be thrown out by guys being out of position, flatted out, or whatever ends up happening in a race. We can plan for an order something like:

Joshua Meny
James Nelson
Ryan Johnston
Patrick Grehan
Todd McLoughlin
Gideon Sorkin
Christopher Conde
Richard Petersen
Daniel Reiners
Carl Nelson
Jeff White
Jeff Owens
Chris Yacks
Joseph Mueller
Richard Henning
John Malcolmson

I can promise you that it will not actually look like that. If any 5 of the 16 of us are even remotely lined up and are ready to hit the gas, shortly after the bottom of the hill, we will be in pretty good shape. Short of getting a couple hours of leadout practice all together, the best we're going to do is get to do it during the race.

We should plan for a 6:10 meetup by the bathrooms to discuss details.

Jeff,

If you want to try for the counters after the sprint, I welcome it. I've found that often any counter-attack after the sprint historically loses gas very quickly going up the hill, and there isn't enough separation between the sprinters and the fresher legs a little behind to really allow a break to form. Usually it puts a sprinter or two in a world of hurt going up the hill, but nothing more. I think counters after the KOM are better positioned to succeed, but if you've got intelligence that there are others committed to countering the sprints, make sure you're well positioned. I recommend taking the position of sweeper after John M, so that you're just behind the sprinters and but not nose in the wind.

Tomorrow's going to be a big race 110 guys. It's going to be easy to get lost 60 riders from the front. We've got the biggest team willing to work together throughout the race. Look alive everyone!

First 5 Laps Covering/Initiating/Shutting Down Shit:
Marc, Myles, Rene, Keith, Strika

KOM Crew:
Lenny, Ragot, Perlberg (with assists from the early dudes if we're in position)

Second 5 Laps looking for Mid-Race breaks:
JP, Perlberg, Ragot, Joaquin, Jan

By the middle of the race, if pace starts to slow, guys not dead from early move action (me, Myles, etc) should make sure we're keeping it hard at the front to help spring some shit loose.

Third 5 Laps looking for end-of-race breaks:
JP and Perlberg are our guys. Everyone else that has juice, attack the shit out of the field.

Last 3 laps, it's a fucking bunch sprint. Let's talk about this tomorrow. Much is going to depend on who's alive and kicking at the end of the race and who can actually get to the front. Ragot's already taking himself out of the sprinter role, and so that leaves the rest of us to decide who wants to bust balls at the end. I don't think Keith likes to participate in last lap madness so...that leaves 7 of us to figure it out.

I am going to sit out a lap of my race just to watch this 16 man long lead-train. When do you start something like that, 5 laps to go?

A 16 man lead out?...now THAT is P.R.O. as SHIT!!! I'm jumping at 700...sweep my wheel and follow the chasers...getting way too amped. shutting off computer and putting a heating pad on my torn groin...and yes its as painful as it sounds.
yack

As part of the KOM team I want to try my hand at attacking after the KOM. Suicide perhaps - but why not make the other teams chase and suffer? See you at 6:10... hopefully my alarm goes off this time...

Patrick

Patrick: I'm down to work super hard after the KOM sprint I think it will be a nice chance to make a break.

All right guys, here's a little something in case you need to get super pumped:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLh0IYQUNq8&feature=related

(subtitled, for those of who speak Spanish only)

And I doth quote:
"that the engineers put wings on a brick and made it fly. ..."


"I asked a F-4 driver how the aircraft actually flew and he couldn’t answer except there was so much horsepower it didn’t matter how small the wing area was."

"F4 Phantom....physical proof that if you put big enough engines in a brick it will fly"

Quick post race recap. As a team we struggled to get it done. Jan got us off to a flying start by raging at the front on the first time up the hill. After that it never really slowed. JP will have some data to share, but early reports suggest average speeds of OVER 27mph and normalized power of 300 watts or so. I personally struggled to even get to the front, never mind do my job at the front. I'm sorry guys. One nice team moment happened as we set up for the second KOM. Kissena leadout train going, there had to be five or six of us at the front of the race at that point. Not sure how Perlberg finished that one off.

We are simply, as are most people hard pressed when the races are fat. We took our shot, but the kom led to what should have been the winning move, but it wasn't. We were a little light in covering stuff early.

My legs were poop today and I didn't have a chance to lead Jan out because of flat.

Field sprint.

We'll hit it at tour de parc next week

John > F4 Phantom