Is anybody planning to attend this tomorrow morning in Central Park?

Clinic 1:

Wednesday, August 10th for instruction signup @ 5:50 AM, starting @ 6 AM - 7 AM and Saturday, August 13th for on-the-road practice signup @ 8:55 AM, starting @ 9 AM - 11 AM.

Location: Central Park @ 110th St & Adam Clayton Powell, Jr. Blvd. (North end of Central Park)

Dan, I'm going to head up to Central Park this AM for the first part of Clinic 1.

Hi All,

I've been mulling this over for a while with a few people but wanted to

a) open it up to a broader group and
b) get some guidance from our mentors

Currently we have *more* than enough strong guys to put whoever (provided they can hang on) we want into the money in a cat 4 park race

I think we can take a 4 man train and and pretty much own the final lap from the top of the uphill (col de bump) to the final dropoff.

What we need to do is practice, practice, practice.

So if you are interested, lets chat, and try and set up a weekly ride where we can get our "orange pain train" on.

J

I'm in. I love a well executed lead-out (especially that feeling like you're eyeballs are ready to pop out, lungs are exploding, legs screaming, and you've got 100 guys strung out on your wheel all wishing you'd slow down so they could move up for the sprint.

I think we may want to start it a little later than from the top of the hill, but we definitely need to practice a lead out a lot.

@ Dan: we have so many strong guys we could start *before* the hill IMHO... but I won't quibble

Interested.

While I loved all the sweet leaders' jerseys we won last year, I'm happy to hear you guys will be going for W's all year long as well!

I think it will also pay off to try this out at Branchbrook, Central Park, and FBF, not just prospect.

I am currently having a torrid affair with the "pain cave" on my computrainer. I would love to drop Thor's Hammer at 1k and put every wheel sucker into 02 debt. I think a 4 man train starting just after the downhill could do it. There is that patch of shitty asphlat there and the field tends to choose the right or left line, mostly they stay left hugging the joggers lane. I'm thinking that if I went wide right, hugging the right curb and go wicked hard I could create a gap for a 3 man train behind me. That's all i got....

I won't be doing much nyc park stuff, but I'd be into branchbrook trains perhaps.

If you can take just 4 guys and keep control of the peloton from the top of the PP climb, then I would be very, very impressed--and probably not believe it unless I saw it myself. I'm also not loving twoyacks' suggestion either, although he's closer to the mark.

While he's right on when he says the field tends to split at the shitty pavement, the idea that one guy could ride so strong and hard as to both pull 3 guys clear from the field and having those 3 guys be only Kissenas sounds almost as impossible as taking 4 guys to control 3/4 of a lap on the last lap of a race. What's more likely to happen is that strong leadout dude #1 cranks out megawattage, getting himself a little gap, making the field panic and jump, leading to the usual final kilometers chaos.

What I would suggest instead, is that the team focus on getting as many blue and orange jersey's to the front of the race with one lap to go. This means some will have to suck some wind and ride harder up the last climb and over the top. Everyone should be in position as the road starts to tilt downward after the up-top esses. Then pour on the juice about 75%. The downward tilt of the road will make it easier to control the field. At 75% power (ish), going downhill, into a sketchy narrowing, your competitors will have to have serious speed and/or large balls to disrupt what you've got going on.

Get through the pinch point, crank it harder (no jumping though), past the crap pavement, pick the side of the road which gives the field the least amount of draft benefit to ride on. Crank it even harder, first couple of guys should have gone hard/long enough that they're toasty crispy and done, leaving 2 or 3 "fresh" guys to go for it. Wattage wise, I'm thinking at this point 30 seconds at 400-500 watts for the leadout guys. If you see homers trying to f with the train, DO NOT jump on their wheels. Let them be heroes, do not be distracted. Stay in the saddle, give another 30-70 watts to keep shit strung out and hard. Make sure the heroes going for glory die in shame. (If you are already cranking 550 watts, they're going to need 700+ just to get free on the windy side. How long do you think they're going to be able to crank out that wattage? 7 seconds or so?)

The last leadout guy should be sprinting with 300-400 to go as if he were going for the win. The sprinter should be on that wheel and come around much closer to the line.

All that said, I totally agree that the more practice you guys get, the better. Remember, if you can dial in a good leadout train, it will get to the point where the field isn't going to fight you so much for the front because they should realize that allowing one team to do a good leadout train is good for ALL the field's sprinters.

I personally think it's a little early in the season to be doing race pace type efforts on the trainer, but as long as you guys are already racing each other on a weekly basis, isn't there a way to download actual courses and roads into the computrainers using GPS enabled cyclocomputers? This way you can get an idea of what kind of wattage you can generate and for how long.

I think the tricky part is getting to the top of the uphill with everyone already lined up on one side or the other near the front. Because if you're not in line by then, you're not going to make it up to the train.

I think what Jules means by starting at the top of the uphill is that the first guy (the "long man," or in the case of Tony Martin, the "Panzerwagen") does a ~3 minute TT from there until about the temple, and the rest of the train takes it from there with shorter, harder pulls. Starting that early could string things out enough to catch a couple of the real sprinters out of position with many bike lengths in the wind to get themselves back to the front.

I also think that as long as we're in line and near the front, if someone else is taking responsibility for driving the peleton fast, there's no reason to take it away from them until nearer the finish, when our line could just ride past theirs and bogart the leadout.

all i got to say is that in their pre-race strategizing, people ALWAYS overestimate the amount of juice they'll have left at the end of the race

controlling the pack for 3/4's of the final lap is incredibly difficult and requires so much coordination, and more often than not, fizzles by 500m to go.

the best bet is to work on ASSEMBLING near the front at the top of the hill, and doing what your saying, with 4 dudes, starting at the bottom of the final downhill.

also, listen to Yacks - he has strange powers when it comes to final 2k heroics.

I agree with only 4 guys it's a long 3/4 of a lap; we probably have closer to 6 really strong guys already and more coming up from the 5's

When I was with another (never to be named) team we had barely 3 and the early season was easy pickings because nobody really expected to get strung out in a line from that far out.

The reason I like the top of the hill as the rallying or launching point is because you MUST be at the front for the downhill so that you can avoid any shenanigans at the pinch point. Fron the pinch point to the finish is still a 2-3 guy workload.

All that said... is Johnny "wrong way on the velodrome" Malcolmson our final-stage rocket or has the M-Train left for the 3's already?

ahhh....

http://www.real-world-physics-problems.com/images/rocket_srb_separation_edit.jpg

FWIW,
I can almost always go from teh back of the pack to the front across the top of the park from the top of the uphill to the top of the downhill. Especially if things are strung out. Its not that hard really, its just a matter of judicious application of power on the downhill sections when things are clear. Though, when things are not right and the pack isn't going fast enough, I am stuck at the back.

SO:

DON"T BE AT THE BACK GOING UP THE HILL IF YOU WANT TO HELP AT THE END.

Eric's move is about knowing how to read a race. It's a skill. Don't expect to figure out how to do it right away. I believe it's more than judicious application of power; it's also about knowing where to be on the course when. For example, the course opens up on the left when the course turns right and vice versa. It also helps to know many of the players and how to read those you don't know. For example, someone who is overgeared is almost certainly not moving up; he's probably spent and doing all he can to hang on. You also want to avoid sloppy (form) riders and those who are trying to use their upper body to put more power into the pedals when seated.

I'll go with what Marc and WDC mentioned. Four guys from the top of the hill to the finish in Prospect is not enough. I think it's more like you need four guys to rotate from the top of the uphill to either the bottom of the downhill or even the temple and then three guys to pick it up from there, each one digging until he blows, and the sprinter gets launched from a strung-out field with 200 to go.

For Central Park, If you want a long train, you'll need at least four guys to take a sprinter from Tavern on the Green to past the last right curve on Cat's Paw Hill.

But, the good thing is,these things can be learned and practiced. Realize the race is chaos and that not everyone has the form they expect and that the unfolding race events can change what one has in the final lap. With that as a given, pick the sprinter and the final two or three leadout guys before the race. If you have eight guys starting, the sprinter should probably avoid all work all race, but it's got to be someone you have confidence can win place or show. The other leadout guys need to start saving themselves with two to go. The others have free rein during the race, but need to come to the front over the top of the last hill and do a rotating TTT until the end of the downill.

In terms of doing a leadout, everyone should get a chance in training to be the sprinter. Best way to learn what you need to do is fill all the roles. Good to practice on teh track. At FBF, this time of year, I'd only want to do it into a tailwind.

Which reminds me. I have to set a date for our Saturday at the Velodrome road bike team training session.

John, post that aerial map that shows where everyone takes their pull!

JK!

What excites me is that if guys are willing to practice and designate a sprinter who will sit and rest, you'll get results. Especially in the chaotic March and April Cat 4 races. It might not be textbook perfect, but we'll have weekly podiums.

I would love to train to be a lead out make myself useful!!!

when are we starting this training?

I'm definitely into joining the Cat 4 train. Let me know when we start practicing.

I've been involved in these in previous years for John and Yacks and they can be fun and rewarding.

BUT ... I won't be joining in the fun in 2012. Sorry.

I've just discovered that broken collarbones are damned painful and take way too long to heal. So anything activity involving the words SPRINT and TRAIN is something I'm avoiding.

@Ian. I totally hear you and get where you're coming from. But, with a well-executed leadout, the front of the race is exactly where you want to be in the closing kilometers of a race. It's one reason, why you see GC contenders, much to the chagrin of the sprinters, fighting at the front of the race on the flatter stages of Grand Tours. And even in our park races, the only safer place to be is 15 meters off the back in the last lap of a race.

One option you might consider is being at the front during the final climb in PP. The pace will already be high enough from the will of the peloton that you won't have to start the leadout there, but as you crest, get past the top of the park left handed pinch point, the pace can sometimes let up there. If you are close to the front, take charge, crank it up to keep the pace going, ensuring some double file action, until just a little bit before the left into the downhill. Back off the pedals, let momentum take you right/straight, as the field bends left (no dramatic swing-offs, like they do in the team pursuit on the track please) and consider yourself having done a good job towards the team victory.

http://stevetilford.com/?p=17435

Damn no more threads with pre race tactics talks.

DamnIWasJustgoingtoPostthat. . . .

Haters gonna hate. I would agree with Steven that most times race tactics don't work. But talking about them and thinking about them is half the fun. The way I look at it if you are having an open discussion about strategy with people who are knowledgeable about racing its a way to learn and build team unity. So I say keep having those pre race bathroom meetings.

True!

I think that article is crap. No one is claiming that a bunch of Cat 4s can hammer the front hours at a time the way we see the pros do on TV, or weave their way through the 35MPH amoeba during a battle to control the lead out.

But sometimes teamwork matters. For example, Cat 4 at Catskills, when Tarmac sent two strong guys up the road early in a small breakaway in an effort to dent our lead in the team category. There was 0 motivation in the group to pull that back. But we did it. If we didn't, who would have? And if it stays away, we might lose the team competition, I might not have take 6th on the stage, and Norm and I could both have lost our top ten GC.

Or the night I won at FBF in June - while I was away our guys sat on the front keeping the pace high enough that no one really wanted to fly past, but just low enough to let me stay away. I wouldn't have won that race without that help.

Or in the park, battling for the KOMs - we made the pace so fast that no one without a train was going to get to the front and still have legs to take Joe or Dave. Once we hammered for a lap and we still had both Jeff and I in front of Dave. By the time I sprinted for the final lead out, I looked back and there was no one within 20 meters. Would Dave have taken that sprint by 20 meters alone? I could go on forever.

I agree that in general we probably overvalue our skills to pull off complex strategery shenanigans, but it's not all worthless by any means. And yes, it makes racing more fun.

Agree with Joe. Team Reiners lead-out train rulez! One effort yielded 2nd, 5th, 7th? Spoils for food/coffee after. I know I'm biased, but it felt really good to be part of a plan, whether or not it came together. Having explicit goals makes racing far more meaningful. And what's the alternative? Watch the Velocity or Hudson train steamroll past? So yeah, I think Tilfords post is bollocks... Look at the UK worlds RR—was that showboating for sponsors? And Renshaw/Cav? Teams spend hours motorpacing and practicing so that they know it like the back of their hand. Lastly, as Marc pointed out, the big picture is A MUCH SAFER SPRINT FOR OUR TEAM!

My take:
 Yes, Everyone practicing pack sprinting! It's not just power, but also how to outfox and psyche-out your competition.
 Agree we need 5 going into the white columns—anyone remember me yelling at Jorge to drop back in? The watts to string it out are high, maybe 380+ for poor bastards already tapped from KOM/Sprint.
 I've said it before, but McKay is our pure sprinter with enough Watts to blow anyone out of the water—deliver him 30 pedal strokes from the line and it's a safe bet. Remember him, oh, winning a PP race?
 Yacks and I are the baby Renshaws, I think we are both capable of jamming out 450-700 watts for 30 seconds. That means we can also definitely contend for the sprint, but if we were leading out McKay I think we'd have very good odds of victory and/or multiple placing.
 At 46-56km/h, we need someone large last! Otherwise second wheel= +30 watts

See attached flight plan...

I like how Tilford says that there's no point to team riding in lower Cat races and then provides 0 examples of why, just says that pros do it for TV. We know... I agree w/ Ryan 100%, total doodoo.

Fact: I couldn't have got KOM w/o a team.

Super excited to throw some big watts in the train this summer (if I can). Is anyone doing work in Prospect on Wednesday mornings this year?

Malcolmson,
Love the pic. I'm saving that. As should everyone else who races in Prospect. Could you also give us the rest of the final k and the k leading up to the KoM? Also the final mile of Central Park and the final k of FBF (though you may want to wait for the finish line to be unveiled)

All,
I can't believe you all ignored Tilford's essential disquisition on the proper wearing of helmets. Much more important.
http://stevetilford.com/?p=17401 (How NOT to wear a helmet).

I read his tactics diatribe, and I think he's talking out his ass, though few commented on his musing of the futility of tactics at the pro level. For one, he's assuming that no one races with tactics in mind and this alone, makes any tactical gambit useless. That's impossible to prove as it is, but once you have people from two teams trying tactical gambits, the assumption is totally erroneous. There are lots of stupid tactical moves and lots of people end up undermining their teammates, but I've seen teams chase down promising moves and set up sprinters and much more.

Maybe he was just talking about the sorry state of affairs in Kansas racing.

Return to the tactics discussion as if nothing happened.