it's worth a try?

The axis race in pp this weekend would be a perfect time to try it since its on our mind and there's no green jersey to worry about.

My job keeps me from slotting into weekend PP races, a shame because I've been tearing up NJ field sprints.

Awesome idea guys. I'm game!

@ Mugwump. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! Just add that the the lining up, communication, measuring the effort and timing, takes practice. It's a difficult test.

The one thing I noticed in the video (@ 1.50) some guys squeeze out a bit at the end by getting out of the seat, maybe helps signal the rider behind that he's finishing too. The last lead out guy is sprinting out of his seat for the entire duration of his pull (you can get a senses of the distance if you look at the dirt field on the right).

ER,
There is glory for the leadout. You did a great ride. I'm sure everyone knows the difference your effort made. And there was the appropriate muffin shower afteward, no?

John,
Getting out of the saddle is not necessary, nor is it common. It probably occurred because the sprint line they were using was slightly uphill and into the wind. For the last leadout guy and the sprinter, having the people in front of them seated is probably better. It's safer, more predictable, less to think about.

The leadout is both about setting your guy up to go fast and keeping everyone else behind you. A way to do this is to pick up the pace steadily, so that each guy is going harder than the previous, but the speed is picked up pretty much without spiking so that the sprinter doesn't burn necessary matches keeping up with his leadout. When you'll see a leadout sprinting in front of a sprinter is when the leadout is coming from the back and trying to blitz a field that is not already near their limit.

Posted By: mugwumpER,
When you'll see a leadout sprinting in front of a sprinter is when the leadout is coming from the back and trying to blitz a field that is not already near their limit.

This make so much sense but I never thought of it that way before.

@ mugwump — I don't know if I agree it's uncommon. Uncommon in our park races maybe. Uncommon if you're a Renshaw or a Dean? Quite the opposite. Maybe it's safer for riders at our level to stay seated and not risk a wheel collision. But if we have a strong sprinter last, shouldn't they be trying to stretch the field and be full gas at 350? Not jumping so hard they are risking dropping their guy, but accelerating around the previous team mate and taking it to full gas.

Here's a compilation video of Cav's sprints at the 2010 Tour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K_1Dnl0mdA

It appears that the only times the leadout guys are getting out of the saddle is to bring their guy to the front, get back to speed out of a corner, or keep speed up going uphill. You only get to see several sprints and there are many, many more variables than several can account for.

Another problem the out-of-saddle leadout guy presents is that he's harder to pass because he takes up more lateral space. This makes it harder for the sprinter to pass. And when he stands, he's potentially pushing his back wheel into the sprinter's front wheel. It also could be less aero for the leadout guy as the swaying bike is fighting air in two directions.

I'm not suggesting the last leadout guy shouldn't be out of the saddle, but if the guy is taking over at high speed already, getting out of the saddle probably doesn't do much good.

I was hoping to hear from more of the newer Kissena members for this workshop. Are you guys just shy? Or already certified mechanics?
Please visit my poll to indicate your interest in topics (pick your 4 favorite topics). You can also see what other people have chosen.

http://www.doodle.com/h89zmebiinshqp9h

I'm interested in all of this - even the tire change basics. but, i can't make the date/time. If it happens again any time in July/August, I'll be there!

it's a great idea, part of the reason i joined kissena....

@ MW. Wow, seeing Cavendish "ascending to the clouds" was pretty refreshing! You could argue either way on out of the seated/standing—whatever is most effective in practice for each rider.

My main point is, the last guy before the sprinter needs to be sprinting full gas for 200-300m and ideally maintaining speed so as not to be a danger to the pack. The sprinter is having to put in 6% more Watts at 2nd wheel, so ideally a big dude. Timing the drop off of that guy is crucial, it's easy to go too early and hang the sprinter out in the wind. We should also consider a sweeper on the sprinters wheel if we have numbers. With PP we can even set markers on the lead in for where to pull off.

These distances need to be rejigged.

John,

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the last leadout guy pulls for 20 seconds and the sprinter 10 seconds. Let's also assume that the last leadout himself was behind another teammate ratcheting up the speed for 30 seconds and the pack is single file behind. If the last leadout guy is a sprinter himself and starts sprinting at the beginning of his pull, he'll probably gap the sprinter and then fade pretty seriously by the end of the 20 seconds. Even if the sprinter is good, you seem to be suggesting that he'll be almost at his sprint power for 20 seconds and then kick it up a notch for another 10 seconds. I think such an effort by the last leadout will actually blow out the sprinter.

Try this exercise. Get on the wheel of another rider. He sprints as hard as he can for 10 seconds. You're going to have to surge,then fade. Are you going to be explosive off his wheel at the end of ten seconds?

I think the big thing is to try it.

Lead Out Workshop

This Thursday 5.45am @ GAP. A quick chat, spin a lap and then some practice/drills.

Goals:
- Discuss lead out preparation: pre-race plan, leader, designated sprinter(s), communication, recon, position, surveying the finish, contingency planning, etiquette, pulling off.
- Practice: forming up, drag races, swapping out roles, communication.
- Assess (if time): what the fastest combinations/order.

Sign Up!
http://www.doodle.com/q6pwws9fiihchpsd

(merged with Leadout thread)

Can I assume you are having this lead-out training workshop on Thursday June 14?
I want to put this workshop on the calendar (http://kissenacycling.com/calendar).

Please refer to http://kissenacyclingcom/calendar for upcoming events.

Oui!

FYI dudes: I've got a nice, solid sprint in the hopper... unfortunately, I'm headed to Europe for 3 weeks. If you guys figure this out and practice, get it rollin' smooth like those doughnuts coming off the conveyer at Krispy Kreme, then I'll be happy to be your sprinter when I return. Mind you, I'll be training with a local sprinting coach in Girona, Spain and eating lots of Serrano ham, so my game will be ON come July!

3 weeks training in Girona... drool. 

Norm you're going to be a climbing monster when you get back. Unless you eat your weight in Serrano then you'll be tubby like me.

Thursday the 14th? I'm coming off a 3-day stretch at work, which traditionally means I'm pretty useless on the bike, but I'm thinking about trying to make it out for the leadout practice. Of course I live in Manhattan...and I'm planning on racing Rockleigh at night...hmmm. Suppose a lot depends on how busy the ER is tomorrow. Unlike in TV rain usually keeps the jokers away from the ER.

Crap...now tomorrow is going to be super busy. Must keep mouth shut.

Could be rain.

Looks to be good tomorrow! Come on out at 5:45AM at Grand Army Plaza tomorrow morning to learn the art and science of leadouts and hopefully we can practice some of this in our real world conditions of PP.

I have a 5:30am work call tomorrow.  Sorry guys

I'll be there.

weather's looking good for the mornin! and i got my whip back from Ride Brooklyn (no more creaking!  not more janky hub bearings!) so i'll be out there.  missed TT's this morning due to a late work night, but might try to get a set in tonight at 8ish if anyone's interested.  

I'll be there too. YAWN!!!

I'll see you jokers out there.

i'm in.