Planning for next Thursday 5.45am at GAP. A quick chat, spin a lap and then some practice/drills.

Goals:
- Discuss: pre-race plan, leader, designated sprinter(s), communication, recon, position, surveying the finish, contingency planning, etiquette, pulling off.
- Practice: forming up, drag races, swapping out roles, communication.
- Assess (if time): what the fastest combinations/order are for Cat 3-5.

Timing:
Prefer to do this next Thursday. Let me know your interest and preferred timing here:
http://www.doodle.com/q6pwws9fiihchpsd

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56N7kS0zvos&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL3C3F26E17AA89BFC

"It doesn't get any better than that, they are an unbelieveable team, I don't think I have ever been on a lead out that was as fast as that," said Henderson. "In the end my job was pretty easy, I just followed Chris Sutton and the rest of the fella's."
"I was on the back and I just yelled 'yes!', and it went down the line, 'yes', 'yes', 'yes', like we had practiced in training," explained Henderson. "When the boys sped up, I thought; 'wow!, where are you going?', it was just so fast."
Afterwards Team Principal Dave Brailsford was pragmatic about the win, having shown that the principals he's used to such success with the British track team can be transfered to the road. "You've got to have a plan, and then the lads execute the plan," he said. "If it works, great. But without a plan....."

"The lead rider in a 4-man pace line uses about 2 to 3 percent less energy than they would if riding solo.The next in line needs about 71 percent of the lead rider’s power, and the third and fourth riders about 65 percent"

Lets be the lads with the plan, and the skills to execute those plans. I am in.

IN.

I don't want to throw a spanner into John's plans, but...

I think it's important for everyone to have a feel for every position in the train. He seems to be alluding to it but I think it should be stated explicitly. This means that even non-sprinters should experience what it is like to be in the sprinter's shoes and sprinters should know what it's like to lead someone out. Makes everyone smarter in terms of understanding what each person's effort is about as well as knowing what to do if the designated sprinter isn't htere or if a non-sprinter is suddenly in the hunt for series points or time bonuses.

And its good teamwork.

This seems like an appropriate place to ask the question(s):
Talking about the Cat4 situation in this regard-

Why, under any circumstances, would us putting together a leadout benefit us in a race?

or, to put it another way: why would, if we had 5 fresh guys on the last lap, it be in any way to our benefit for us to *waste* them leading out the entire field?

I am not looking for someone to explain the virtues of a leadout to me and the role it plays in the end of a Tour de France sprint stage, but instead for the application to our amateur team. I am personally wholly against this concept and think it is a manifestation of vanity on our part (wanting to be a little bit pro).

I think there are a few pieces of evidence we have ourselves provided (by *we* I meant he Cat 4 crew, to other groups this may not apply) to suggest that this is not a good strategy as well as other, more general concepts.

1)This has been attempted on numerous occasions in the Cat 4 field and in the two years I have been racing on the team I have never seen it succeed. Any sprint successes we have had, mostly via John, have been him freelancing it or, at best, having a single useful helper.
2)Let's face facts guys, in PP for example, the finish comes in at 30-35mph (closer to 35), especially on the nice new tarmac and after the descent. After several attempts, it has been proven that our group is incapable of maintaining an effective leadout speed (by deduction, 35mph in this case) as evidenced by the multiple swarmings of the front guys as the wind-up occurs. Or, if not incapable, didn't know that was the idea.
3)Do we even have a sprinter to lead out?!?!?!?!?! John is now not a Cat 4.
4)Kissena has been very successful in my opinion this year with many good placings and some victories. Were not the majority of those successes attained by way of break? For example, Dave V in PP- a manly solo last 2 laps with the team blocking. Jeff Condon, 3rd from a small group. Jules at Battenkill had help from the team in a very pro-active way, without closing the race down in order to try to keep the field together, on way to 3rd. Also, when John won in PP this year in the sprint that was nothing to do with a leadout. It was because Kissena had a guy up the road in every single break, controlled the race and took the sting out of the other teams. Leaving John, as he so reliably does, to freelance to victory. No leadout. I know the Cat 3s have had much success by breakway this year too. It seems to be a club theme. It seems to be a club strength. Why wouldn't we play to our strengths???

Also, looking at this from a general perspective outside of our team, effective leadouts don't jsut happen when everyone has attacked, been brought back, and lines up in front of our sprinter. The leadout should be protected pretty much like the sprinter al race in order for it to be effective. In essence, a leadout is similar to a sprinter's sprint but just comes at 200m increments prior to the finish. Guys need to be fresh for this in order to hit the speed necessary to be useful. We don't tend to do that as a team.

I don't mean to offend anyone who thinks that they might be an exceptional sprinter or leadout man, but I think the evidence clearly suggests that we as a unit have not succeeded at this. Maybe due to lack of application if nothing else. This is however, the reality. In exceptional circumstances maybe we could try, perhaps last race of the series and our guy need a couple of points to win GC, maybe that would be a useful time to apply a leadout strategy where the team saves itself for that one objective in this unique situation. However, this is a unique example.

Could be fun to practise, could be good training. I do feel however that our Cat 4 crew has many talents which are wholly under-used with this tactic

I tend to agree with Adam in that we shouldn't be sacrificing strong guys unless we have a sprinter who can regularly freelance into the top 5.

That said like any skill we should practice should the opportunity arise we'll know what to do; even if it is a leadout of one.

I also feel that the reason we don't regularly succeed in the 4's and 5's is that we don't really commit to it. Our leadout (like everyone else's) is an if-all-else-fails plan.

With 4 or 5 strong guys (which we have) we *in theory* should be able to own the end of the race. Why we can't is a mystery; don't have a strong enough sprinter, well enough trained leadout or...?

Adam & Jules,

I don't think our lack of success isn't really because of commitment or because we cannot close. I think we spend our energy too far out. We overestimate how much each guy can do in the last km. We start too far out, and either don't go all out (and get swarmed) or burn out well before 200m (and get swarmed). Either way, more practice is going to be a huge help in applying this.

in the 35+ Branchbrook race two weeks ago I watched the Colavita team do a great 2 man leadout to launch a guy to bridge up to their other guy up the road. Those two guys came in 1&2 in that race after holding the whole field off. It was an awesome little bit of teamwork to slingshot a guy into the winning break and saving a huge amount of energy to windup a sprint for the attack. So even if we're not specifically using this as our end-game for races I think there are applications for this that we can take advantage of if we're well practiced.

The L&C leadouts for green this year were impressive, and I suspect they will continue to be successful at the expense of a yellow leadout. Three leadouts in a race is too much. Not to mention that yellow is contested probably twice as much as green. We've got half the legs when twice the energy is required. If we committed 4-5 guys to leadouts and sprinting every race, I firmly believe we would place in the money every time. Adam's critique is unfair as we have never faithfully attempted that in Cat 4.

Posted By: Adam3)Do we even have a sprinter to lead out?!?!?!?!?! John is now not a Cat 4.

I am the only one on our team in Cat 4 who has stepped forward to be our sprinter. Aside from resigning myself to the track, it's the only niche I can really occupy in a road race at my current weight. So I am committed to mastering it. I've had some top ten placings this year, but if you've raced with me or read my reports, you know my sprinting technique needs work. Hence, Adam asks his question justifiably.

However, With 4-5 fresh guys, I am confident I could hammer it in no problem. If you look at my last "leadout" when I got swarmed, I was following only Dan, who had already contested green twice himself. Obviously, that isn't a leadout, and had I just decided to freelance instead of being faithful to my team leadout, I would have done better (this is in no way a slight to Dan, as he expressed these ideas immediately after the race).

Posted By: Jules RoazenI tend to agree with Adam in that we shouldn't be sacrificing strong guys unless we have a sprinter who can regularly freelance into the top 5.

For the leadout to be effective, the leadouts would have to sit in the back with me the entire race and stay as fresh possible just as I am. It would be a big sacrifice on their part, but if executed with the utmost discipline, it would be incredibly successful. However, since I have not regularly freelanced into the top 5, I would not ask anyone to sacrifice their whole race just for my sprint. If people volunteered to try it out, that's another thing and I would be happy to do it. Otherwise, I'll just be freelancing.

C

Posted By: Jules RoazenWhy we can't is a mystery; don't have a strong enough sprinter, well enough trained leadout or...?

Shit guys...I don't know how many times I've expressed this point on these forums, but here goes again.

The reason why you "can't" is that you "won't." You absolutely have the horsepower to execute a nice leadout. But you simply have too many guys on the team who will not commit to practicing a really big part of racing not only in the Tour de France, but in Prospect Park races.

Top 5 reason to work on leadouts:

5. Challenge yourself. Now is the time to do it. Before you upgrade, take your cat 2 power numbers and challenge yourself to racing in different ways.
4. Improve your chance at muffin money EVERY week. 50% or more of PP races end in pack sprints. You owe it to yourself to know the best way to succeed in that context.
3. Keep it safe for all. If you absolutely have no interest in contesting a bunch sprint, fine, then pull yourself from the race with 1 lap to go. Or get your ass to the front and keep it safe for the field. Otherwise you are just in the way.
2. Discover. Only a few of us on the club have been racing long enough to be able to label ourselves as particular kinds of riders (ironically, we don't). The rest of you owe it to yourselves to try new racing tactics and styles before you start stamping yourself with irrelevant racing identities.
1. Win in 3D. A complete racer knows how to handle himself in all situations. The same skills required to protecting your sprinter in the final kilometers of a circuit race, are required of protecting your climber in the early nervous kilometers of a road race stage.

Not to mention the notion of racing in a way that only plays to one's strengths and not working on weaknesses is just wrong in so, so many ways. And not just in bike racing.

We have never succeeded in leading out a sprinter because we have never even come close to executing a decent leadout. Dan is obviously right in that we always start way too far out. But it's even more than that. We've simply never gotten five guys in line NEAR the front before the downhill (in PP specifically).

I want us to learn to execute a leadout because, as Marc says, most races in the area end in a sprint, and we have the biggest, strongest team around. So our advantage of numbers can make a decent leadout almost guaranteed money.

@ Adam Contrarian
Good questions, but WTF! So insensitive! You know Christian is going Pro at the end of this season! And just think of all the vainglorious Victor Chan shots we could blow up to 20x30'

As Marc et al observe, it's not either/or. It's a huge gaping hole in our race experience, like holding on to the handle bars when you crash (who the hell does that?):
Remember:
C - CHAOS: Just "say no go" to bat-shit field sprints.
4 - 40% OF RACES AREN'T FIELD SPRINTS: Windy day, sure "let's blow this field up". No wind "let's keep some fresh legs to lead out xxxxx"
W - WUSSES ARE OWNING US AT THE FINISH: It's great to have White Lightning Reiners in green, but Arcos, FGX and Major Taylor are finishing smart and sticking it to us with a third of our numbers.
I - I'M NOT A NEWB: Whitey, you're wrong. 2011 Al Toefield Cat 4 we made it to 250m full gas, I got second. Why so few results? Because that was the end of last year. WE JUST NEEDED TO PRACTICE MORE AS A TEAM. The lead outs for the finish are always going to be harder than the KOM/Green jersey sprints. A dialed in train, that factors in the tired legs and antsy competition will get a podium result.
N - NOT TRIATHLETES We're a team, there is an i in teiam, but it's more fun to leave it all on the road than complain about how sketchy yet another PP finish was.

And that's just two cups of espresso!

Posted By: Dan ReinersLets be the lads with the plan, and the skills to execute those plans. I am in.

Why not practice and have this in our arsenal of tools we can shock and awe the rest of the Cat 4s. Know we can win from a break, lets get to own the sprint too.

Just a bit of clarification here:

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: Adam</cite>3)Do we even have a sprinter to lead out?!?!?!?!?! John is now not a Cat 4.</blockquote>

I didn't ask if we had a sprinter. I asked if we had one looking for a leadout. But yes, it did at first glance come across as insensitive. Apologies, none meant.


I would argue that this tactic actually limits our racing experience. Let's not forget, Cat 4s have tried this so it is not something that the group has yet to 'experience'. As noted, we have failed largely because we have not definitively said that guys should do nothing all race except for the last half mile. How realistic is that scenario though?

I just wonder, if we had 5 guys who were fresh as daisies coming into the last half mile, I would totally bet my money on the better prospects if they all went off the front one after the other making the other teams chase. I think that would be better odds, no? Surely, 5 guys doing this, one would get away. I mean, if people are saving their 1 min max effort for this point in the race how could that effort be spent most effectively.

I just don't understand why if we were to have 5 totally fresh guys on the last lap, why would employing them in a leadout be the best use of their freshness/power/ability. Especially given the proven characteristics of our team.

Unless and until we have a *very* well trained unit of strong guys for a leadout we'll continue to fail at it. I see no harm (and a lot of fun) in the training though. It's a great skill to have & develop; it will help people learn how to freelance as well as work in a disciplined train. We'll know when that train is good enough to bust out come race day... and until then we can have fun (and a damn good workout) practicing.

No harm in training it and practicing it.

I've never trained it, and it's no surprise that I'm failing to execute it now.

I want executioners!

But seriuosly the cat 3 squad needs to practice too. Sometimes I want to sprint instead of leading out.

I'm not sure that we need 5 totally fresh guys for the lead-out. Surely we all have more than one match, more than one time during 75 minutes that we can crank it up.

Probably the guys who go for the last lap or two attacks are not the ones who are leading out but if you've been hiding from the wind for 5 laps or so you should have enough pop to crank it up to max for 150 meters - at least max enough to string out a Cat 4 field. We've been able to crank it up multiple times for the green jersey.
Sprinter, different story.

I think Jeff hit the nail on the head in that we need 5 guys on the front when it counts and it's rare that happens, but it shouldn't be that hard. Start moving up early and take teammates with you. If you were supposed to be lead out guy #3 and you are 1st in line then don't panic, play that role.

Anyone know how to get to Carnegie Hall?

Practise, practise, practise!

Workshops, clinics and participating in any team racing plans on race-day is totally and entirely optional.

"Seacrest out!"

Adam,
I think I see part of the problem. I don't think you understand the allocation of resources necessary here. We're not talking about doing the Sky thing and saving everyone for Cavendish.

I don't think anyone has suggested saving five people for hte final mile of the race. This is not what the discussion is about. It is about taking four people and have them use their final effort to set up the fifth rider, teh sprinter. The sprinter probably should have been saving himself, at least for the final several miles.

So, it's just getting people to use whatever gas is left in the tank to lead out the sprinter.

Think of it this way. If we have four guys and a sprinter and the field is together at the top of the hill by GAP at the last lap of prospect. The chances of anyone getting away at this point are pretty small. Each person fends for himself. The sprinter may be able to break into the top 5 on his own, maybe he'll win, but maybe he'll get boxed in and finish outside the money. The four other guys are in varying states of fatigue and, without any coordination, probably one guy will finish 15th, another 18th, another 19th, another 30th.

Why not coordinate so one guy gets in the top five and the others finish at the back of the field? It could be Christian one week, Dan the next, you the next, then Yack, and so on.

Part of the training is understanding what kind of effort you need to make. Once you understand it, chances are, that unless you're seriously cramping,you can probably summon the strength to do that last effort.

FWIW, I can attack all race, and still typically get to the front of a park race in the final mile. But if I'm attacking all day, I'm not going to have anything to sprint well. I might as well help our freshest rider get in position for the sprint.

All this business about a fresh leadout is overblown, I think. We've all seen Highroad/Sky/Garmin/etc riding hard tempo to bring breaks back for their sprinters and then still cracking out a serious leadout. It ain't no free ride to the last km. And besides, those are very long races. Ours are not. We can drag our asses to the front, line up on the right side after the uphill, and then get to work when it's time to get to work. We simply can do it. We don't even need a "designated sprinter." Just get in line, go when it's time to go, and no dropping wheels, no bailing on the leadout, no jumping on the first wheel that comes by, basically no losing faith. And the last guy goes for a place. Better than riding it in in the back.

Also, Adam, you need to check yourself. We're trying to keep things POSITIVE here you prick.

before we get our panties in a bunch: Whitey is being sarcastic. He and Adam are cool wit' each other.

OK, Al has confirmed June 25 at 7:30 -9:00 at Ride Brooklyln (468 Bergen St between 5th and 6th Ave). Ride Brooklyn is one of our sponsors.

Please go to this doodle poll to express your particular interests and to give me an idea how many people will show up. Vote for FOUR topics. Don't be shy to vote for the basics. My inclination is to keep this first workshop simple and to hold a follow up where we cover more complex repairs.

http://www.doodle.com/h89zmebiinshqp9h

Plan is to have relevant tools for sale so you can go home and destroy your bikes :) I'm sure he will give you a discount, just not sure what %.

^True^

I may race stupid, but I know better than to pick a fight with a trained pugilist!

adam has been known to fire double Kalashnikovs from the hip and he carries a sock full of nickels in his fanny pack . . . do not fuck with him

Be careful making fanny references with a Brit .

http://www.effingpot.com/slang.shtml

From reading everything I have this to offer.
1. you have something at the end to contribute. Get to the front on the uphill and if all you have is to drive it up the hill - go for it.
2. there is no glory in the leadout. Rene won, I led out last weekend.
3. Leadouts hurt - imagine all of the energy you have available in your body devoted to 10-30 seconds of pure suffering.
4. learning how to go that hard is an art in itself.
5. we're still working on things in the 1-2-3 and cat 3 squads, so no worries if you don't have it yet. Just work on it.
6. if I didn't mention it, leadouts hurt.
7. watch us rock one on Saturday in the 40+ race!