Local Dopers - Forum Archive

Jul 23, 2012 at 07:53 PM

I don't understand why anybody cares enough about amateur bike racing to put their health in danger. Especially somebody with a family. I couldn't imagine what kind of conversation you have to have with your wife "Yeah honey. I injected drugs into my system that turned my blood into sludge and could have killed me in my sleep, leaving you and the children without me. Oh yeah I did this to impress a handful of skinny dudes in colorful stretchy underpants."

Why would you consider doing EPO if you knew the potential that you would have to have that conversation, I would never know? Why do cheaters always lack in understanding anything other than the positive consequences of their behavior?

There is a real integrity issue here, if he was willing to take illegal substances for local amateur racing, it calls into question what he does in the rest of his life that should really matter. Does he cheat on his taxes? Is he embezzling money from his work?

mugwump

Jul 23, 2012 at 08:03 PM

Dan,

I've long wondered the reverse. specifically, if people assume all athletes are dopers, does that mean they cheat on their taxes, at their jobs, etc?

one woman who engaged me in such a conversation I knew enough of to think she probably cheats whenever she can get away with it.

Dan Reiners

Jul 23, 2012 at 08:13 PM

I can't get my head around the logic of "I just gave my credit card information to somebody who is supplying me with a substance illegally. I really trust this person A) not to steal my credit card information.

Give me the actual substance I am trying to buy C) this person is giving me the right information about how to take the substance safely."

Why not just scrape up something off the bathroom floor at Grand Central Terminal and shoot that into your veins? Just stupid. Why put yourself at risk like that?

Jules

Jul 23, 2012 at 08:38 PM

@ Dan I think the issue is that people don't really *believe* the negative outcome will happen to them; getting caught or having bad side effects. There are lots of people who are willing to make bad decisions for short term gain. Totally agree with you about the integrity issue.

"If you are willing to cheat yourself who won't you cheat?"

We talk about this in business; would you hire an admitted adulterer? I mean, if they'll betray their family what will they do to their business partners?

Jeff Owens

Jul 23, 2012 at 09:40 PM

@Mike,

It's not speed, it's sniffing glue that I'm into. Oh, and since we're all confessing our cheating ways on here, I also have a Gruber Assist on my CAAD 10. I thought it would be less conspicuous that way.

twoyacks

Jul 23, 2012 at 10:06 PM

To those of you who are asking the question "why"? I give you...SMORC !

http://books.google.com/books?id=fQPKwo5AQnUC&pg=PT6&lpg=PT6&dq=simple+model+of+rational+crime+smorc&source=bl&ots=285OFtwIur&sig=6zImWEsCs1KBcx_DBdM_zwIfLt4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hcoNUKnEDrSn0AGKpY3NDA&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=simple%20model%20of%20rational%20crime%20smorc&f=false

Jules

Jul 23, 2012 at 10:07 PM

Gruber Assist! That's like a felony in 9 states...

mugwump

Jul 23, 2012 at 10:36 PM

"If you are willing to cheat yourself who won't you cheat?"
We talk about this in business; would you hire an admitted adulterer? I mean, if they'll betray their family what will they do to their business partners? I think the three are different. With adultery, we don't know the arrangement between the couple involved. At worst, adultery is a "crime" against one person. Cheating in sport is cheating against everyone in that sport--and sometimes constitutes a crime (taking EPO seems to be in a grey area, but the physician involved could well face charges). Cheating in business is a crime.

Jules

Jul 23, 2012 at 11:04 PM

@ Wump I agree the 3 are different in the eyes of the law, but the example stands (I think)

Cheating in sport has wider ripples than cheating your family, but the question is degree, not nature. Ditto for business; there are many ways to break rules that are not illegal per se: one could point to the Pinto example where a rational decision was made to optimize statistically for profit at the expense of the industry as a whole.

At the end of the day the moral hazard doesn't change, just the venue.

Jules

Jul 23, 2012 at 11:11 PM

I am getting increasingly nervous about people pointing to good places at Battenkill as evidence though...

Jeff Owens

Jul 24, 2012 at 12:48 AM

This comment on velocity is just too good:

just looked up this clowns results, fucking hilarious
Using the real lube and still a total donkey.
The pathetic thing is like him many of you actually care
And think it matters. Fuck your stupid result in the
Category tortoise, almost impotent age group race.
Get a life you psycho's, go ride and have fun.

Jeffrey White

Jul 24, 2012 at 12:49 AM

Battenkill is implicated big time in this. It's the biggest, most expensive race around and it got got by the organizer of a fred ride. Dieter cannot explain that away.

Proposed letter from Kissena:

"Dear Mr. Drake:

A three-time winner of your race has been caught for and subsequently confessed to using banned, performance-enhancing substances to achieve his results. He was caught by an organization completely outside the auspices of organized bike racing.

We are failing our sport.

How do you plan to address this?

Sincerely,
Magic Mike Perlberg
President, Kissena Cycling Club
Exotic Dancer"

Thierry Bonnaire

Jul 24, 2012 at 01:09 AM

Now the media is involved with this story

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/

Jeffrey White

Jul 24, 2012 at 01:20 AM

And I would like to add, teammates, that I am finding myself more and more troubled by this. New York bike racing needs testing as soon as possible and it is up to us to make that happen. By "us" I mean Kissena Cycling Club.

We need to do this in concert with the other teams; especially BH, Mengoni, Foundation, and whoever else has had members caught doping. We must work with CRCA. Charlie Issendorf will obviously play a crucial role. And on the outside chance, Van Dunk.

I've been really impressed with our board this year, and I dare say that's fairly unanimous. You guys have accomplished so much, despite the hijinks of those goddamn Panamanian manatees.

That said, if you decide you want to get something moving and need any help, let me be the first to volunteer. Maybe if anyone else wants to get involved, they could speak up.

Jules

Jul 24, 2012 at 01:36 AM

@ Jeff Synch up with Craig Z & Ryan; they are currently looking into what's needed /feasible on the anti-doping front.

Jules

Jul 24, 2012 at 02:17 AM

Oh good grief...

http://303cycling.com/boulder-commuter-receives-2-year-ban

vlad

Jul 24, 2012 at 02:39 AM

I really don't think that instituting doping controls and local races is the answer. We are all adults. We don't need to make this any harder on ourselves or the promoters.

Personal responsibility is where it's at. The world is full of cheaters. I don't mind losing to them as long as my conscience is clean.

mugwump

Jul 24, 2012 at 03:02 AM

The (honest) Truth about Dishonesty reviewed in the NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/books/the-honest-truth-about-dishonesty-by-dan-ariely.html

"But most of this book is about the downside of cheating and lying. Mr. Ariely says that cheating is contagious, and that a group’s behavior will have a powerful effect on each individual. Bottom line: “There are rational forces that we think drive our dishonest behavior — but don’t. And there are irrational forces that we don’t think drive our dishonest behavior — but do.” In other words, lying, cheating and Mr. Ariely’s already famous predictable irrationality are all closely connected."

The world is full of cheaters, true. But it seems there's plenty of evidence that if cheating is believed to be widespread, it encourages more cheating. Does Anthony getting caught mean the cheats have to watch it, or is it proof that they don't?

Jeff Owens

Jul 24, 2012 at 03:15 AM

Jules, it's a fake article. But not unimaginable, b/c that basically what DA was doing!

jfogden

Jul 24, 2012 at 03:21 AM

People here keep asking "How?, why at his age?"? I seem to remember a former Kissena member a couple of years ago who became so obsessed with 'being all that he could be" at the ripe old age of 35 that he went on a road-rage style rant on the forum over the lack of teammate support and team work ethic to support his various racing goals in the cat 4s. He alienated quite a few people that day and quit the club within a week to join a 'real racing team'.

I liked the guy but the rant was impressive, and I thought "this is where it starts..." I dont think he was or is doping but that desire to "make it happen" is like the dark side of the force for some, an all consuming downward spiral. Im sure most GNC supplements are illegal and used frequently on a local level. EPO is just one small level up from that - and its "so pro..."

twoyacks

Jul 24, 2012 at 03:35 AM

Every now and then the question comes across my bow, "why haven't you upgraded" ? Other than the obvious answer, my utter lack of top 10 results, my go to defense has been and will continue to be, "I think some of those guys are on something". I could keep my powder dry and sprint for a top 10 every week and get my upgrade but I don't want to be motorpacing behind some guy who has been harpooning his ass with needles. Haven't we seen enough cases of local riders getting busted to rationalize my mentality? Keep in mind the # of local riders who tested positive are only the ones we now know about. The law of averages dictates the # of dopers is much higher than the # of riders busted. I'm old enough to remember the Pineda brothers. They were my first introduction to local riders who were using. I'm sure there is a list somewhere of all the local guys who got caught. The fact that there is enough names to actually compile a list makes my decision to remain a cat IV an easy one. If a IV tests positive, I am going bowling. I hear they have new aerodynamic bowling balls, electronic scoring and custom bowling shoes...soo PRO ! Yacks

Ryan J

Jul 24, 2012 at 05:36 AM

For what its worth, I had a long conversation tonight with Warren St. John, who was (and I say was because he expressly told me that this deception ends their friendship) pretty tight with DA.

BH has already met and discussed all of this extensively. Without disclosing all the details of the conversation I believe Warren 100% when he says that DA acted alone. It seems he went to great, almost unimaginable lengths to run his own private doping program. Hopefully it will all come out - Warren said BH is pressuring him hard to tell the whole story publicly.

According to Warren, in retrospect the guys on BH feel "stupid" about not being more suspicious from the start. And, they understand why people might think they are all guilty and they are taking responsibility for earning back the trust of their fellow racers. DA will be banned from BH for life, and they are instituting random controls within their team. They are also working with CRCA to start testing at their races, and he suggested we reach out to their board to let them know we are thinking along those same lines.

I totally disagree with the homie Vlad. I think doping controls at local races is absolutely the answer. This will spark all kinds of suspicion and accusations within the racing community - i.e. bad vibes!

I think testing will go a long way toward correcting that. The biggest issue will be money. But this is a community full of guys who are 10 lbs overweight paying $10k for super light carbon bikes. The money can be found.

In the end, this isn't blockbuster news. One of the things that's great about Kissena is that we have some perspective about how far down the bike racing totem pole we really are. DA is not Frank Schleck during the last week of the Tour. At the same time, the fact that there are many good guys in our racing community who love bike racing and who work hard at it for the occasional success surrounded by lots and lots of failures makes this a problem worth taking seriously.

Jeffrey White

Jul 24, 2012 at 11:27 AM

Vlad, I'm totally on board with personal responsibility and I too enjoy my clear conscience. But I can't help feeling a little bit stupid spending my time competing against such a dirty bunch of people. They're risking us losing park privileges by repeatedly riding in the bike lane, they're intentionally crashing other cyclists in the middle of the peleton, they're taking their hands off the bars in the middle of sprints, they're threatening other competitors with physical harm. And these are only the things they've done for all to see. I can't help being a bit skeptical that we are dealing with a "personal responsibility" crowd here. And I'll tell you what, the cheaters sleep just fine at night. Maybe if there were even a minuscule chance that they'd get randomly tested, they wouldn't sleep so well.

@Ryan, it sounds like Warren Saint John said exactly what anyone would say. I'm not sure how we're supposed to react to that. And I don't see how internal team controls could possibly mean jack shit to anyone outside their team. But maybe that's just me.

dstearns

Jul 24, 2012 at 12:15 PM

Second doper identified: Gabriele Guarini from Prato, Italy accepted the results of his A sample.

vlad

Jul 24, 2012 at 12:27 PM

Dieter Drake is outraged and talking about not having prize money at Battenkill. He's also pointing fingers to the masters crowd. I don't think either is fair.

I'm interested in seeing just how the landscape changes.

Personally, I'm up for whatever the community agrees to although I'm not looking forward to paying more (and getting less?). It's not going to change the way I race.

dstokes

Jul 24, 2012 at 12:53 PM

My overnight thoughts . . .

We as a community have a certain desire to emulate the pros. Even Vlad shouted out "There's my bike" everytime Evans was seen on TV last weekend. We ride their bikes, We read their blogs. We take up their training strategies. We compare our power numbers. (this is the communal we, I don't actually do most of those things, but you get the idea). Over the last couple of years it has become an increasingly unavoidable conclusion that many of the pros are doping. Some are caught. Others are not. We have our suspicions. We laugh about them. We snarl about them. Who gets caught has become part of the entertainment. What else is there to do on the rest day?

So it is logical and inevitable that our peers, and perhaps our friends, will end up on that internet site doing what the pros do. Who wouldn't want to do what Voekler did in the Pyrenees? That was awesome and must feel awesome. I find it a little strange that people like Dieter Drake and Ken Harris are so outraged. It is so obvious.

I think local testing is a way to bring some reality to this situation. Great that the GF started it. We need to keep the momentum rolling.

ian ellis

Jul 24, 2012 at 12:57 PM

I strongly suspect it's common at local races and especially masters. Why ?

There are some masters who are clearly cat 1 and 2 who have never left the sport, ride smart, fast (and cleanly) and can win on anything with 2 wheels.

Then there are those who are returning to the sport after focusing on family/career or joining it for the first time and they want to be competitive. The issue is they have a lot of ground to make up on the other guys and expensive bikes, coaches, power meters, carbon wheels, etc are not closing the gap quickly enough.

If you factor in that in order to afford all of the above they must be pretty successful in business, then they 'go the extra mile' to be successful in sports.

I'd ramp up the use of doping in masters triathletes, those guys spend a fortune on equipment and race fees.

dstokes

Jul 24, 2012 at 12:57 PM

Interesting response from Jules over the weekend when I wondered out loud why none of the sprinters get busted for doping. He suggested that they all took their steroids when they were younger. Built up necessary muscle mass and now are just in maintenance mode, which requires training but maybe not continued use of the dope. EPO is not so interesting for them.

If true, that poses a problem for testing the NYC peloton, where many of the people we complain about are pretty hefty.

Jules

Jul 24, 2012 at 01:29 PM

Not quite the "muscle mass" benefit but there is real science behind the idea that steroid use can produce lifelong changes in muscle behavior.

http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/2008/04/studies-suggest.html

It's a tough one from the deterrence perspective; do some steroids in high school and catch a lifetime ban...

Ryan J

Jul 24, 2012 at 01:44 PM

@Ryan, it sounds like Warren Saint John said exactly what anyone would say. I'm not sure how we're supposed to react to that. And I don't see how internal team controls could possibly mean jack shit to anyone outside their team. But maybe that's just me.

I don't think there is a way you're supposed to react to it. React however you want.

My personal reaction was one of relief. My head was actually spinning thinking into thinking "who else on BH is involved - is it my friends?" After the conversation I felt much more like DA was the only one. And not just because I like Warren. The level of DAs commitment to obtaining EPO and using it was epic - again, it will all come out soon. And for me it was nice to know that BH is indeed taking personal responsibility - like Vlad asked for. Warren said they all understand why people think they are guilty by association, they all feel "stupid" too, and they want to do what they have to do to earn back everyone's trust.

So now instead of feeling a lot like you do ("...a little bit stupid spending my time...") I am reminded that there are way more guys like us than guys like DA. And they're all ready to spring into action to weed out the bad ones. So its a great opportunity.