Jul 12, 2013 at 11:21 AM
can we change this thread's title to "froome is a massive dope fiend: yes or yes?"
Professional Dopers
Jul 12, 2013 at 11:23 AM
Were it not for mobile phone I'd post a pic of scarface in front of his mountain of blow...
Jul 14, 2013 at 05:46 PM
Sad Trombone... NOT
http://nyti.ms/1bda3sE
Jul 14, 2013 at 06:17 PM
Jul 14, 2013 at 08:30 PM
ok. Just had a couple of beers with Stokes. We came up with how Froome et al are doping. B/c the test for plasticizers isn't very advanced, but could possibly be applied retroactively like they did to poor poor Jaja with the new EPO tests, what you need is ORGANICALLY LINED BLOOD BAGS! Am I right?!
Listen, Stokes is like a molecular biologist doctor and I've "attended" at least 4 different colleges (we even parted on agreeable terms on occasion: I quit, you can't expel me). So you get the autologous blood reinfused using lambskin coated IV bags and tubing.
Should I patent this or what? Anyone have Ferrari's number? Lisbon?
Listen, Stokes is like a molecular biologist doctor and I've "attended" at least 4 different colleges (we even parted on agreeable terms on occasion: I quit, you can't expel me). So you get the autologous blood reinfused using lambskin coated IV bags and tubing.
Should I patent this or what? Anyone have Ferrari's number? Lisbon?
Jul 14, 2013 at 09:26 PM
Hey, I think that was MY idea. I'm going to sue you.
And anyway, the idea was sheep's stomach - think hagis!
And anyway, the idea was sheep's stomach - think hagis!
Jul 14, 2013 at 09:30 PM
Ya, but wouldn't that be susceptible to discovery via a test for sheep particles? In order to really do this right, you would need to construct a bag made from . . . yourself. Just as well - the whole O2 blood doping has gotten so bizarre as is, we might as well go down the Wild Bill Silence of the Lambs path.
Jul 15, 2013 at 12:28 AM
Need a clone. The "original" rides, does interviews etc. The clone is kept alive (maybe in a pit to keep the Silence of the Lambs thing going) for the sole purpose of providing rich undetectable new blood. And/or...maybe the clone shows up for the out of competition blood tests.
Jul 15, 2013 at 01:17 AM
Nice thinking, @neilx. So, all you GC heavies, start with your clone pits. (And btw, I had an involuntary vision of clone-Froome, all pale and sad, fingernails worn down and drained from the involuntary transfusions, after I read that. I'll blame you for the ensuing nightmares.)
Jul 15, 2013 at 01:23 AM
I think it's much less dramatic. Two things to focus on since 6.5 w/kg rings too many alarm bells:
Weight loss and improved recovery day after day. If you can decay slower than the rest the tour is yours; and let's be honest about how thin these guys are; even Contador ON CLENBUTERAL wasn't as skinny...
Jul 15, 2013 at 03:35 PM
@Jules - Even the thinnest elastic part of FroomeDog's HR strap sticks proudly out through his jersey, as there is no flesh beneath to squeeze. Just paper thin skin and bone. Unlike on me, where it looks more like this:
Jul 15, 2013 at 05:25 PM
has this been bantered about?
Jul 15, 2013 at 05:48 PM
Phil/Paul said the other day that Peter Kennaugh lost 8 kilos since the criterium international so he could climb better in the tour... 8 kilos! in three months! In the middle of the season!
I refuse to make any accusations of PEDS but how on earth are all these british pursuit trackies and TT specialists turning into ace climbers? Sky must have some special training plans ("loose 8 kilos"?) because David Millar could never climb worth squat... or Dave Z but since he's not british or a Sky rider we'll leave him out. And every year Sky comes up with a new one...
Jul 15, 2013 at 06:10 PM
"Marginal Gains" he probably just cut out that extra packet of sugar in his morning coffee and made sure to always cool down. How hard could dropping 8 kilos be?
I mean, I'm only 8 kg heavier than Ryan! I could do that before, say the end of October....
Wow, and that would put my threshold just under 5 w/kg too! Sweet. I'm *so* gonna just do that.
Watch out Jawbone, here I come!
Jul 15, 2013 at 08:44 PM
Jules, you're so skinny the only way you could lose 8kg (17.637LBS) is to cut off your head... I don't advocate that at all.Jules said:"Marginal Gains" he probably just cut out that extra packet of sugar in his morning coffee and made sure to always cool down. How hard could dropping 8 kilos be?I mean, I'm only 8 kg heavier than Ryan! I could do that before, say the end of October....Wow, and that would put my threshold just under 5 w/kg too! Sweet. I'm *so* gonna just do that.Watch out Jawbone, here I come!
I just think Phil Ligget makes up shit for something to say... JP had a good one from the ATOC:
"Sherwen and Liggett were going on and on about how they heard on race radio that Philippe Gilbert was going back for socks. "the socks are highly technical these days, and these have pockets for cooling elements." I'm pretty sure Gilbert was going back for "socks" of pantyhose filled with ice, sometimes called ice socks, that they put under their jerseys by the necks."
Jul 16, 2013 at 12:56 AM
OK, having watched the prime-time rest day coverage:
For reference, it is debatable whether Jules could beat me by much more than two minutes in a 33 km ITT. By my biased estimation, he would probably take around that much out of me. It is difficult to imagine the best pro rider being like Jules and the second-best pro rider being like me. How can the best be so much better than the second best at the very top of the sport? Unimaginable.
Jul 16, 2013 at 12:59 AM
@Whitey Heh, very true.
To clarify, here is what I think they are doing:
1) doping to get as close as possible without going over the 5.9 or 6.0 w/kg limits that make the testing authorities look too foolish if they don't find anything
2) doping to reduce "decay" as the stages go on. Fresh I'd have a hard time putting two minutes into you in a 33km TT but after a week of stage racing if I was fresh as a daisy you'd be easy pickings
3) weight doping
Jul 16, 2013 at 01:12 AM
We should do an undulating 33 km ITT within the club to see who's who. I think I'd come in around Gatis Smukulis.
Jul 16, 2013 at 01:25 AM
10-15km is probably sufficient. Think River Road.
When I first joined Kissena, we used to have a club TT championship. 4 laps of PP in Oct.. I remained miffed because one year I won the 'masters, category and no one bothered to acknowledge that fact. Alas, that was before most of you even knew what cyclo cross was.
Jul 16, 2013 at 01:26 AM
For the record I totally advocate cutting off Jules' head b/c then it could be attached to my body and I'd be a lot faster.
Jul 16, 2013 at 01:28 AM
Strangely enough, this comment is totally appropriate, given the source...Jeff Owens said:For the record I totally advocate cutting off Jules' head b/c then it could be attached to my body and I'd be a lot faster.
Jul 16, 2013 at 03:26 AM
Not to mention the fact that back then you had to do it on a high-wheeler, with a handlebar mustache whilst dodging the occasional horse & buggy...dstokes said:"When I first joined Kissena, we used to have a club TT championship. 4 laps of PP in Oct.. I remained miffed because one year I won the 'masters, category and no one bothered to acknowledge that fact."
Jul 16, 2013 at 03:35 AM
Jules said:If you are a product of the 70's...you are familiar with this movie classic starring Jules Winfield & Jeff "Ironside" OwensJeff Owens said:For the record I totally advocate cutting off Jules' head b/c then it could be attached to my body and I'd be a lot faster.
Jul 16, 2013 at 05:13 AM
I just watched the Ax 3 Domaines stage... I didn't have the opportunity to watch it before now.
Watching this stage with more recent stages in mind, I begin to think of what I might "at-will" racing. That is, whatever is called for --regardless of the naturally gifted and gifted+doped company in the race-- A RIDER TAKES WHAT HE WANTS. That was Lance Armstrong and that seems to be Chris Froome. Telling a convincing lie is easy... just one-up the previous best liar.
I love to lean toward the wonder-performers of sport being clean, but the nature of these performances is out of order, quite consistent with Les Grandes Programmes of the past.
Maybe all clean, but very likely not.
Stokes' lambskin hypothesis is quite savvy. Or perhaps a variant synthetic plastic that is not detectable via designed tests. Also possible are new EPO developments and dosing regimens and --of course-- relationships that pay-off.
I mean... how else are these fuckers affording that much Rapha kit?
Jul 16, 2013 at 05:22 AM
Oh and Joe Friel posted this recently... later saying he wasn't hinting at any cheating, but it is what it is.
#TdF Froome ~6.3 w/kg? Big number.
Jules said:@Whitey Heh, very true.To clarify, here is what I think they are doing:1) doping to get as close as possible without going over the 5.9 or 6.0 w/kg limits that make the testing authorities look too foolish if they don't find anything2) doping to reduce "decay" as the stages go on. Fresh I'd have a hard time putting two minutes into you in a 33km TT but after a week of stage racing if I was fresh as a daisy you'd be easy pickings3) weight doping
Jul 17, 2013 at 02:25 PM
Ouch. It's almost as if cheating were some kind of universal human condition...
Jul 17, 2013 at 06:47 PM
When the pros now tell us that things have changed, are they talking about this... HIF-PH Inhibitors. I don't follow the research on these things, so maybe I've overlooked it... but it seems like I would have stumbled across it before now. I don't recall reading about it on any cycling sites. From a quick scan, it appears to be a product that cheaters would surely take advantage of. And given the timing of this article, this type of drug must have advanced quite a bit by now.
Jul 17, 2013 at 07:37 PM
Jul 17, 2013 at 09:06 PM
Norm, it's interesting. However, pro cyclists showing up with hematocrit in the 50 range should set of warning bells to the bio-passport experts. My guess is they'd have to dose carefully so it appears that their hematocrit is fairly stable.normanzo said:When the pros now tell us that things have changed, are they talking about this... HIF-PH Inhibitors.
If it was revealed what various pro racers tested hematocrit count was in the 1997-2001 period, and then what it was post 2001, we'd probably see that the top guys had their hematocrits drop from 49 to 45 or less. And if people saw hematocrits going up again from there, we'd certainly have reason to question
Jul 17, 2013 at 10:31 PM
I agree this post is interesting but a B- effort or worse. The "I don't know how they'd catch people" shows an ignorance of hematocrit and old/young rbc ratios that would be way off.Norm, it's interesting. However, pro cyclists showing up with hematocrit in the 50 range should set of warning bells to the bio-passport experts. My guess is they'd have to dose carefully so it appears that their hematocrit is fairly stable.normanzo said:When the pros now tell us that things have changed, are they talking about this... HIF-PH Inhibitors.If it was revealed what various pro racers tested hematocrit count was in the 1997-2001 period, and then what it was post 2001, we'd probably see that the top guys had their hematocrits drop from 49 to 45 or less. And if people saw hematocrits going up again from there, we'd certainly have reason to question
Also the "cycling is dirtiest" is such bull... Compare the money at stake in all major sports and convince me that the most effort is being spent where the lowest returns are available....