If only there was some independently wealthy watch manufacturer looking to build a team around a discredited has-been... oh well.

Testing is expensive...when I worked on Wall St. in the early 90's and drugs were a problem, random testing became a weekly occurrence...till the lab bills started rolling in...being clean cuts into profit margins

Jules said:

If only there was some independently wealthy watch manufacturer looking to build a team around a discredited has-been... oh well.

i heard they bought a handball team 

twoyacks said:

Testing is expensive...when I worked on Wall St. in the early 90's and drugs were a problem, random testing became a weekly occurrence...till the lab bills started rolling in...being clean cuts into profit margins

However the technology around mass spectroscopy has gotten a lot cheaper over the years because of improvement in the data acquisition software systems and ease of operation in general.

Thierry Bonnaire said:

twoyacks said:

Testing is expensive...when I worked on Wall St. in the early 90's and drugs were a problem, random testing became a weekly occurrence...till the lab bills started rolling in...being clean cuts into profit margins

However the technology around mass spectroscopy has gotten a lot cheaper over the years because of improvement in the data acquisition software systems and ease of operation in general.

It's been pretty clearly shown that the performance gains from doping last much longer (lifetimes?) than the drug is present.

It's not at all clear what testing is relevant or practical, IMHO.

Jules said:

Can't wait to hear Phil "I have a tatoo so it's ok that I think Rapey Jokes are Funny" Gaimon talk his way out of this one.

Uh, did I miss something about Phil Gaiman?

Yeah - in his book where you'll ready about how he thinks rapey jokes are funny and cookies taste good, he details how Tom D finally showed him how to train hard enough to become a successful pro and how he changed how Phil sees dopers and some are "good guys."

#YMMV

I'm pretty sure his "core advantage" is a testosterone patch on his junk.  Can we label this rag as fiction and get a refund?

That's disappointing to say the least.

At least we won't have to suffer through Phil and Paul pointlessly saying "and there's Tommy D" and nothing more whenever they see his jersey on the screen.

"Phil he has an unbelieeeeeeevable turn of speed."
"He's setting an interminable pace here on the climb Phil"
Oh I hate them both....really if cycling wants a new beginning they have to throw out all the old actors...this includes riders, directors, commentators...they all smack of the doping taint

twoyacks said:

....really if cycling wants a new beginning they have to throw out all the old 

But not components or frames, right?

SPECIALIZED for sure has to go....those frames have been DOPED for years!!!!
watch this video at  3:32 and 4:27....the first one especially

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE

Cervelo's too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwXzUwTFMxc

I understand the necessity to dope at the Tour of Utah...I mean with the STIFF...WORLD CLASS competition present....I mean just look at that stacked field:
Team BUDGET FORKLIFTS
Team AXEON CYCLING TEAM
Team COLUMBIA
Team BARDIAN-CSF
just to name a few....

I guess this means Vaughters is out...

In February, Vaughters told Cyclingnews, "It’s true we ask for that [scrutiny] and still in ten years we’ve not had a rider dope on our team. Ever. We’ve lived up to that. That was the initial promise. If that ever is broken then Doug and I are out.”

I mean HOT DAMN !!!!!  Look at them fancy rims on that trailer !!!!  Eat your heart team SKY !

David, the other thing with Phil Giamon is that he likes to brag about being clean and has a soap bar tattoo to emphasize the point, meanwhile, he just wrote an article where he admitted to taking a supplement to raise his testosterone level. And I honestly don't know what to make of that. It strikes me as a grey area. I mean, I take a beet juice supplement. Maybe I'm a doper too.

The three guys on Budget Forklifts they sent to Dairylands were tough. And they've got riders with plenty of world championship medals to back up my subjective impressions.

Marc... You should see the riders on their "A" squad...NO BUDGET FORKLIFTS...see what I did there???

There is really just too much material here...Remember Lance's protestations that he would never take drugs having survived cancer?  Danielson should not take pages from the Lance play book:

"I have not taken this or any other banned substance. I would never ever take anything like this especially after everything I have gone through the last years. This makes absolutely no sense."

I do appreciate the attempt at ignorance in the banned substance known as...something called I guess...I think... I'm told... I understand to be...."synthetic testosterone"...whatever that is...

"I received a call [from] USADA notifying me that a out of competition test I gave July 9th has tested positive for, from what I understand, synthetic testosterone.”

....not exactly "Inside the Actors Studio" material

Marc, re: the testosterone supplement thing, I took that as "I do superstitious things even though I'm pretty sure it doesn't work and that's the limits of my grey area" within context of the article. He expects readers to assume that he wouldn't do anything actually proven to positively affect performance and that the threshold of grey area he inhabits is benign. I don't know what to think of that considering he isn't an idiot and he knows that these supplements are highly unregulated and full of unknown ingredients. If one of those supplements contained some random banned substance that would obviously warrant a cheese grater attack on that soap tattoo.

But I digress, the actual news is Tom Danielson and whatever mysterious supplement he unknowingly ingested.

Sigh. Who the hell do we root for anymore?

There is no grey area. Only black and white. It is either against the regulations or it is OK.

As such any performance enhancing product or technique is perfectly legal and acceptable to use, until it is prohibited by the authorities.

Easy.

ian ellis said:

There is no grey area. Only black and white. It is either against the regulations or it is OK.

As such any performance enhancing product or technique is perfectly legal and acceptable to use, until it is prohibited by the authorities.

Easy.

Actually it's preposterous. I can grow more hemoglobin by spending 2k on a pill or on 4 weeks at altitude.

Why do we care about the method and not the outcome? The method can span decades (steroids) and be impossible to test for, or masked but the outcomes are visible to everyone.

Altitude training vs EPO (and variants) is actually a good study. The do both have the basic same effect on the body.
WADA, etc, have declared taking EPO cheating because it is easy to draw a line and state that injecting oneself with a synthetic product is cheating. Also there is a health risk associated with overdoing it, having way too high a hemocrit level and dying in your sleep.

Living and training  at altitude does not pose the same health risk (to my knowledge) but does still have an impact on performance. However it would be exceptionally difficult to regulate.
They could try to stop riders going on altitude camps, but what if a rider buys a house at altitude and moves there ? What about Quintana - would he never be able to go home to see his family in columbia, etc, etc. It is ungovernable.
I know that in Italy they have banned hypobaric tents, not sure about anywhere else.

So the method is all they can regulate.

Just Tilford
http://stevetilford.com/

Irony.
http://www.informed-choice.org
Check out the cover boy.



Wonder if he'll throw the sponsor under the bus.  

Anyone who is getting tested or agrees to testing is playing with fire if they take a supplement.  Gaimon's testosterone booster is either a placebo, which probably means it's clean, or it works, which probably means it doping.  Which is why people should stay away from supplements.  I have a hard time believing Danielson could have been taking any supplement which would have caused a positive test, unless it really did something, which means he probably knew it was doping.  

FWIW, Gaimon has been tested 4 times this year, 6 last.  5 in 2013
Danielson was tested 13 times in 2013, 10 times in 2014. 3 times in 2015.

Maybe Tommy D thought the coast was clear.  

Mind you this testimony is all from someone who would "never ever take anything"

71. Before the Vuelta I asked Dr. Ferrari if the team would have EPO at the Vuelta. He told me that the team would provide small doses of EPO to keep our blood levels up during the race. 72. During the 2005 Vuelta I would go to Pepe’s hotel room for EPO injections which were given intravenously. The blinds would always be drawn in the room and Dr. Celaya was also sometimes present. 73. I understood that the entire team was receiving injections during the 2005 Vuelta. I know Michael Barry was receiving injections at the 2005 Vuelta. 74. I finished seventh overall at the 2005 Vuelta a España conducted from August 27 through September 18, 2005. 75. Before the 2006 Tour of California, which was held February 19 – 27, 2006, I was training in Durango, Colorado. 76. I spoke with Pepe over the phone from Durango and he told me that he was shipping EPO to me. He understood that I needed the EPO to perform well and to stay on the program that Dr. Ferrari had designed for me. After the EPO arrived I spoke with Johan Bruyneel and told him the EPO had arrived. Johan was involved in every aspect of the team’s training and doping program; he was very controlling, and I never did anything significant without Johan knowing about it. I gave some of this EPO to Michael Barry for his use in preparing for the Tour of California. 77. I ended up finishing eighth in the 2006 Tour of California, one minute and fortynine seconds behind Floyd Landis of Phonak who won. The Discovery Channel Team finished second in the team classification behind CSC. Michael Barry finished 16th. Page 11 of 18 78. In 2006 Dr. Ferrari told me about a recipe for mixing small testosterone balls known as Andriol in olive oil. I was instructed to place the mixture in a container and extract 1 ml with a syringe and squirt the liquid under my tongue. This was supposed to be done at night, and I was told that by morning I would not test positive. This product was known as the “oil,” and I would get it as needed from Pepe Marti. 79. I discussed the “oil” with George Hincapie on a bike ride and understood that he used it. 80. While on the Discovery Channel Team I also used testosterone patches. I obtained some of these from Michael Barry. 81. I also discussed testosterone patches with Pepe who said that he could get them for me. 82. In 2006 Pepe asked me whether I wanted to try human growth hormone (hGH). I tried it and shortly thereafter got a call from Johan who said he thought I had more muscle definition. 83. I asked Dr. Ferrari about hGH, however, and Dr. Ferrari said it was “bullshit” and that I did not need it. 84. Dr. Celaya and Pepe would also give me something they called a “hormone booster” before a big stage. They never told me what it was but said it would make my hormones increase. This product was injected. 85. After competing in Europe in the Spring of 2006 I returned to the United States to try to defend my victory in the 2005 Tour of Georgia and came up just short, finishing four Page 12 of 18 seconds behind Floyd Landis and in second place in the general classification of the 2006 Tour of Georgia held April 18 – 23. 86. Like the previous year, in 2006 I was given cortisone injections by Dr. Celaya to compete in the Tour of Georgia. 87. I then returned to Europe to ride in the 2006 Giro d’Italia which was held May 6 – 28, 2006. 88. Prior to the 2006 Giro d’Italia I asked Johan Bruyneel whether the team had an organized doping program for the 2006 Giro. Johan said “no” but that he thought had organized a system for obtaining EPO during the race. 89. I also spoke with Dr. Ferrari about obtaining EPO for the 2006 Giro. was also a client of Michele’s and Michele was also aware that had a system for obtaining EPO during the 2006 Giro. 90. I went to and asked him if he could help me with EPO for the race but he said that he had only enough for himself. 91. I discussed the situation with my teammate who was very upset that the team did not have an organized program for this race. 92. I left the 2006 Giro after the 19th stage, just two stages from the finish. The race was won by Ivan Basso of Team CSC and my teammate Paolo Savoldelli finished fifth. 93. The 2006 Giro d’Italia was the third Grand Tour in which I competed. Although I was a very strong climber, I was getting blown out towards the end of these long races. Rider-1 Rider-1 Rider-1 Rider-1 Rider-1 Rider-2 Page 13 of 18 94. In 2005 I had become aware that others on the team were on a blood transfusion program but that I was not. I discussed this with Michael Barry who was good friends with George Hincapie and was aware from George about the team’s blood doping program. 95. By now, I had come to believe that I would need to do blood transfusions in order to be successful in the Grand Tours. 96. Therefore, at the end of the Giro d’Italia in 2006 I discussed with Johan Bruyneel the possibility of the Discovery Channel team assisting me with blood transfusions in the 2006 Vuelta a España. Johan said “ok” the team would assist me with a blood program and that the blood program would begin after I came back from a trip to the U.S. 97. I went back to the U.S. and then returned and finished first overall at the 2006 Tour of Austria held from July 3 - 9. 98. Sometime around the Tour of Austria Johan called. I was anxious to begin the blood program but he put me off and began discussing my 2007 contract. 99. He first asked that I get a blood test. He told me that in order to take out blood I needed to have a high hematocrit so that after removing the blood I would still be able to train. 100. As we discussed the doping program and my contract I began to realize that Johan was using the blood program as leverage in our contract negotiations and would not begin the blood program until I signed a contract for the following season. 101. As we discussed the contract Johan referred to the benefits of staying with the Discovery Channel team and that I was safe there. I understood him to mean that I should sign with the Discovery Channel team for less money than I might get elsewhere because the team Page 14 of 18 had a well organized doping program and that I had access to the expertise I needed to not test positive. 102. After I had signed a one year contract for 2007 the blood program began. 103. My hematocrit turned out to be relatively low, and Pepe Marti gave me more EPO and tried to get me to be more aggressive with the EPO to boost my hematocrit. However, I did not want to change my EPO protocol due to my concern over testing positive. I started to worry that Johan, Pedro and Pepe had waited until too late in the summer to start a blood program for me. 104. Thereafter, I went to Valencia to meet with Pepe and Dr. Pedro Celaya and they took out 2 bags of blood. 105. I returned to Girona and attempted to increase my hematocrit by using more EPO. By now it was August and the Vuelta was coming up August 26 through September 17. 106. Johan suggested that I keep my reported whereabouts at my Girona home but that I not tell USADA and go to stay at the Hotel Fontanals Golf in Puigcerdà, Spain, where he said that Lance Armstrong had gone in the past to avoid drug testing. 107. Over the coming weeks I returned to Valencia twice more to have blood reinfused and re-extracted in order to keep the blood fresher. 108. I found this process to be both physically draining and mentally terrifying. 109. To give your blood to a guy who places it in a plastic cooler takes it away and then comes back a few weeks later with a bag of blood that he says is yours I found to be very nerve wracking. Page 15 of 18 110. I began to worry that my blood would be mistaken for someone else’s. When I first had blood extracted Pepe asked me to come up with a symbol to put on the blood bag to make sure that it did not get mixed up with someone else’s blood and this seemed very amateurish to me. 111. The more I thought about it the more worried I became. I began to wonder if I could die if they gave me the wrong blood or did not handle my blood correctly, and I remember staring to think, “I don’t like this.” 112. I found the whole process to be almost emotionally paralyzing. 113. I did receive my blood transfusions at the Vuelta but the whole process had been so emotionally draining that I believe it prevented me from being a serious contender for the podium. 114. Even when I got to the race itself my anxiety did not let up. I had never had severe nerves at a race before, but now I was having a panic attack. It got so bad I told Johan and Dr. Celaya that I thought I might be having a heart attack. I was convinced I was having heart problems from the blood transfusion. 115. Things got so bad that Johan had one of the doctors give me a sedative the last night of the race. 116. Throughout the 2006 Vuelta Dr. Celaya injected me with small doses of EPO. I was told that these injections of EPO were necessary because the blood transfusions would cause my body to lower its production of new immature red blood cells, known as reticulocytes. The EPO was thought to boost reticulocytes so that the effect of the blood transfusion would be masked. Page 16 of 18 117. I also received cortisone injections from Dr. Celaya in the 2006 Vuelta, although I did not have a real medical need for these injections. 118. Although I did have one stage win, I finished a disappointing sixth overall at the 2006 Vuelta a España and by the end of the race I could tell that Johan had given up on me. 119. I continued to experience anxiety attacks and had trouble finishing well in races. As a result, I stopped doping in 2007. 120. My last meeting with Dr. Michele Ferrari was in 2006. 

I take issue with "natural" vs otherwise. Is it "natural" to get in a jet and fly to a remote mountain island to train? Are carbon composites "natural?"  How about... ibuprofen?

My point is that these lines are way less objective than people would like.

Furthermore, testing "the only thing you can test" is not a justification, it's a behavior, similar to looking for your keys only where the streetlight shines. It may be what's achievable but is in no way connected to what is likely to work.

Jules said:

I take issue with "natural" vs otherwise. Is it "nature" to get in a jet and fly to a remote mountain island to train? Are carbon composites "natural?"  How about... ibuprofen?

My point is that these lines are way less objective than people would like.

Furthermore, testing "the only thing you can test" is not a justification, it's a behavior, similar to looking for your keys only where the streetlight shines. It may be what's achievable but is in no way connected to what is likely to work.

I agree the lines are often blurry.

But the line where you are using EPO (or testosterone) vs training at altitude is not blurry at all. Not even close.

eloy said:

Jules said:

I take issue with "natural" vs otherwise. Is it "nature" to get in a jet and fly to a remote mountain island to train? Are carbon composites "natural?"  How about... ibuprofen?

My point is that these lines are way less objective than people would like.

Furthermore, testing "the only thing you can test" is not a justification, it's a behavior, similar to looking for your keys only where the streetlight shines. It may be what's achievable but is in no way connected to what is likely to work.

I agree the lines are often blurry.

But the line where you are using EPO (or testosterone) vs training at altitude is not blurry at all. Not even close.

Really? What if it was a scrupulous but poor athlete that had ready access to EPO but couldn't afford to go to altitude? What if that same athlete decided he'd take just enough EPO to mimic an altitude camp?