I don't know if any of you follow Johan Bruyneel on FB, but I do (I had forgotten I did, but a post popped up on my newsfeed) and he made some snarky comment, "I wonder if TD will blame me and Lance for this?"

And so I kind of read him the riot act. I wouldn't have gone out of the way to criticize him this way, but since he was ballsy enough to bring it up...

Basically, if you take a rider in his formative years, surround/supply/coach/guide him to use doping products? That kind of amoral (at best) behavior training is bound to have a lasting impact on a rider's thought process forever. So yeah, it kind of is his fault.

Marc Bertucco said:

I don't know if any of you follow Johan Bruyneel on FB, but I do (I had forgotten I did, but a post popped up on my newsfeed) and he made some snarky comment, "I wonder if TD will blame me and Lance for this?"

And so I kind of read him the riot act. I wouldn't have gone out of the way to criticize him this way, but since he was ballsy enough to bring it up...

Basically, if you take a rider in his formative years, surround/supply/coach/guide him to use doping products? That kind of amoral (at best) behavior training is bound to have a lasting impact on a rider's thought process forever. So yeah, it kind of is his fault.

#thanksObama
#thanksJohan

Wow, that was ballsy of Johan.

@Jules Then the athlete that took EPO cheated. Simple. Even if 'all' he is doing is trying to match those that do train at altitude. It is cheating because the rules say so.
Is it fair that one athlete can afford to go off and train at altitude (or buy wind tunnel time, or buy a scooter and get motor paced, etc) while another cannot ? No, probably not, but that is life. That rider can decide to deal with the situation as it is, or maybe they decide to take that EPO offer. But if they do the latter it is because they made a choice. No because of some sob-story about how life isn't fair.

Johan is an unrepentant asshole? Quelle surprise!

Jules & Eloy,

I think you're both in agreement, but the example of EPO vs altitude camp is kind of strange in this instance. TD has synthetic testosterone in his system. that got there one of three ways, intentionally ingesting it, unintentionally ingesting it, or a newly attached cyborg scrotum (the last option is probably the furthest outside chance, so we'll discount it for this exercise).

He has a substance that is clearly banned in his system. He either knew he was taking it or he didn't, but that doesn't matter. The onus is on the athlete to know what they're putting into their body, because those are the rules. So he is clearly over the line. It doesn't matter whether he was running around buying it from GNC in some over-the-counter supplement, or buying ampules from Bruno the body builder at Meatheads Gym, he has something banned in his system that could be providing a benefit, and that is that. The rules are not about the result, it is about the substance in his body.

Heck Contador got popped for something that wasn't giving him a benefit at the time, but is a banned substance because in certain circumstances it helps you lose weight quickly (not something you are necessarily planning to do in the middle of a grand tour). We have no idea whether TD has enough of this stuff to help him get better or recover faster, the benefit doesn't matter in this case, it is the existence in his system that is the issue.

Jules said:

My point is that these lines are way less objective than people would like.

Jules,
     The rules are clear.  flying to altitude is allowed, taking EPO is not.  Just as racing a bicycle that comports with the rules is allowed and racing a motorcycle is not.  I don't know anyone who upon witnessing a bicycle race where a guy pinned with a number is  crushing the field on a motorcycle would remark, "well, it's cool; he didn't have the time to train."  

     You are not debating rules.  you're injecting "spirit of sport" arguments.  I am interested in "spirit of sport" debates, but they're not germane here. It would be one thing if people openly took banned drugs and justified it on lacking the time to train or the money to go to altitude.  That would be civil disobedience and a  way to bring the issue to the forefront.  But until someone comes along and does so, they're simply cheaters--people looking for an edge by doing something they know is over the line. 

mugwump said:

Jules said:

My point is that these lines are way less objective than people would like.

     You are not debating rules.  you're injecting "spirit of sport" arguments.  I am interested in "spirit of sport" debates, but they're not germane here. It would be one thing if people openly took banned drugs and justified it on lacking the time to train or the money to go to altitude.  That would be civil disobedience and a  way to bring the issue to the forefront.  But until someone comes along and does so, they're simply cheaters--people looking for an edge by doing something they know is over the line. 

I *am* debating spirit of sport - nothing at all to do with Tom "Doper" D. I've got no horse in that race.

(As my grandpa used to say "intelligent men do not debate facts" so I have little interest in arguing about what an interpretation of a rule is. It's clear who gets to decide that.)

Can we all agree to call him Tommy Dope from now on?

Dan Reiners said:

Can we all agree to call him Tommy Dope from now on?

#tommydopey

Really? What if it was a scrupulous but poor athlete that had ready access to EPO but couldn't afford to go to altitude? What if that same athlete decided he'd take just enough EPO to mimic an altitude camp?

Then that athlete is clearly doping. Clearly.

Not shocked Danielson got nailed...Not shocked that Johan popped his head out from the den of irrelevance that he has been sentenced to.  I am shocked that Danielson is attempting to employ the "tainted supplement" excuse. He is a decade too late for that one.  He rides for the "clean team" meaning as part of his contract, any supplement he is considering putting in his body would need to be cleared by the team first.  I didn't hear his team roll off any over the counter shit he may have been taking.  Also, whats to preclude him from putting a testosterone patch in his "supplement" container overnight...removing it and then shipping the container off for analyses?  It's his 2nd positive...he is up against a lifetime ban unless something should happen to the "B" sample.  I think the guy has 2 ex-wives, 2 young children and a high maintenance girlfriend...good luck paying for ANY of those things moving forward.  He dug himself an enormous hole, fell into it and their ain't no getting out.  

 http://thedirty.com/gossip/hollywood/kourtney-compton-couldnt-stay-straight-for-too-long/

I hope Craig Hummer did this on purpose...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXxvdhE1zFc

Yacks, how do you find this stuff?

Jules said:

(As my grandpa used to say "intelligent men do not debate facts" so I have little interest in arguing about what an interpretation of a rule is. It's clear who gets to decide that.)

I like this.

There is no filthy corner of the internet I will not explore to shame dopers.

Jules said:

I *am* debating spirit of sport - nothing at all to do with Tom "Doper" D. I've got no horse in that race.

(As my grandpa used to say "intelligent men do not debate facts" so I have little interest in arguing about what an interpretation of a rule is. It's clear who gets to decide that.)

Well then, intent is an important part of that discussion.  And considering Danielson's response--he is not bringing up the fact that he didn't race the  Tour this year as preparation for Utah--it's safe to write that we don't have to get into the spirit of sport debate on account of him.

However, I've heard people trying to articulate spirit of sport arguments to justify local dopers.  Jared Bunde, Lisbon Quintero, and even Cesar Marte all had backers who invoked, poorly, a spirit of sport argument.

I'm not buying.  They were using drugs to beat competition that was almost certainly largely clean--a reality they all knew.  And Danielson himself has been caught using drugs to beat a relatively weak field.  Utah is mostly continental and pro continental teams with a smattering of WorldTour riders training for bigger goals.  Danielson is a WorldTour Pro who has the means to train much better than most of his competition.  

Further, EPO is not a drug of marginal gains, unless you're starting from a hematocrit of 48.  Going to altitude is not only expensive, but time consuming and tricky to pull off, and the benefits are small relative to EPO, which is cheap, fast, and easy in comparison.  The ethics of an injection vs. upending your life (which it is for most pros) puts altitude   very much in line with training and injections like holding on to a car. Steroids, as you've pointed out, can deliver benefits that last a lifetime. 

I have at textbook on altitude training and athletic performance.  It might not be up to date as it was published in 2004.  But the author could not unequivocally state that altitude training has been found to a make a measurable difference in sea level performance.  There is tremendous individual variability (much like with drugs) and people can't train as hard, and the effects wear off over time.  For example, though Quintana might have spent two months in Colombia, he'd been in Europe for at least five weeks when he put the screws to Froome en route to Toussire.

And if you're going to point out the "cheap" for underpaid pro's, that isn't quite true anymore either, as more frequent testing (not for local dopers) means micro-dosing, which adds complexity and probably expense--like a paid advisor to help you design a schedule to evade testing positive.  

For all the talk of Mt. Tiede, the original benefit was that it was a safe haven from testers.  The second benefit, also location, is good weather close to Europe in the winter and spring.  There are plenty of cheap places at high altitude with decent weather.  Colombia comes to mind.  I also think that Colombia doesn't do much in the way of testing.  Colombia's main negatives are that you have to do LHTH rather than LHTL and you have much longer travel time.  

twoyacks said:

There is no filthy corner of the internet I will not explore to shame dopers.

I am imagining deep in the bowels of Reddit, an area mostly populated by people who are too dumb to understand the MRAs use of acronyms, and training programs to become a Nigerian email scammer, there is a bunch of people gathering these things.

that or Yacks is the one person who really likes using Bing, and finds the random flotsam that washes ashore there.

Lt Dan is on fy-ah today with the yuck yucks!

The internet is lovely, dark and deep...but I have promises to keep...and dopers to shame before I sleep...and dopers to shame before I sleep.

This one deserves a cross post:
Oh Big Tex just snuck into the ring and hit Vaughters in the back with a steel chair !!!...It's Wrestlemania pandemonium !!!!  Big Tex, JV, The Pate and The Hog are off the rails !!!
http://i.imgur.com/BCs1pNE.jpg

twoyacks said:

This one deserves a cross post:
Oh Big Tex just snuck into the ring and hit Vaughters in the back with a steel chair !!!...It's Wrestlemania pandemonium !!!!  Big Tex, JV, The Pate and The Hog are off the rails !!!
http://i.imgur.com/BCs1pNE.jpg

OH IT IS ON!!!

Wow, so much fun.
JV's Twitter feed isn't half bad either...

Actua-lol 4 Lance.

Here's an interesting one.  A pal of mine goes to Florida or Arizona from NY most years in the Winter to train.  One trip to Arizona he came across Tommy Danielson training there too.  He struck up a bit of convo until Danielson's warm up was over.  The conversation turned to Lance.  Danielson was very defensive over Lance.  In essence, my pal summarized Danielson as saying "Yeah, Lance cheated.  But he was better than everyone anyway.  If we were all clean- he was the best.  When all doped- he was the best."

Cannot fucking stand Garmin/Cannondale/Sharp or whoever they are.  A haven for dopers and I don't buy the reformed "David Millar" I found god shit either.  So unfair that they get a second chance when other riders who have made no mistakes (or at least not been caught yet ) are overlooked.

It was really all about managing his "life stress" that led to Danielson's breakout performances...Well he is gonna have "life stress" now....Oh and his college coach was a renowned drug trafficing doping machine

https://books.google.com/books?id=dVuCTcjYhS8C&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=rick+crawford+coached+tom+danielson&source=bl&ots=sab5Y5DVLv&sig=UEphQQUaqRwqK-EnR8f5qHVBQPQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFcQ6AEwCWoVChMIgtaXl4STxwIVSDc-Ch1HUwu7#v=onepage&q=rick crawford coached tom danielson&f=false

Oh and Sr. Douche should probably stay off Twitter and focus on shielding his Benjamin's from Uncle Sam
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/us-government-seeks-lance-armstrongs-medical-records/

Amazing.....he is paying his lawyers a fortune, yet he still refuses to ride in their slipstream...answering questions when his counsel tells him not to 
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrongs-deposition-testimony-made-public/

twoyacks said:

Amazing.....he is paying his lawyers a fortune, yet he still refuses to ride in their slipstream...answering questions when his counsel tells him not to 
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrongs-deposition-testimony-made-public/

Which do you want to hate him for? Not telling the truth and hiding behind his lawyers or telling the truth and ignoring them?

I don't think you can have it both ways.

Isn't it more about the arrogance of hiring a bunch of lawyers, then ignoring them, and just assuming that you can continue to outsmart everybody. Also we can all agree that Yacks has a particular hatred of Lance that is unquenchable. 

If narcissism could be measured in watts...Lance would be at 9.0 watts per kilo 
Hate's a strong word Dan.  More like amused by his ignorance. Give this clown 2 inches of rope and he'll figure out how to hang himself.
Jules, Lance is the one that is trying to have it both ways...why pay lawyers if you are not going to listen to their counsel?  He should either go into a deposition commando or sit there and rely on his representation.   
Lance still hasn't figured out if he should be defending or attacking.  He can't rebuild his image without showing more contrition...more contrition fuels the Gov't's case against him.  
Going on Oprah, taunting the Gov't on social media & quoting Rodney King during your deposition = hanging yourself.  His narcissism precludes him from making correct choices.
Floyd has been awfully quiet since the Gov't joined his lawsuit = the correct choice.
Lance is trapped and confused...He's a caged "Zonkey"...penned in while people shuffle by amused at his very existence.
 

^ "Cancer Zonkey" to you!