mugwump said:

JohnMalcolmson said:

The innocent tend to be more outraged/WTF/how did this happen.
 

They do?  

I've noticed that the chronically guilty also seem to take the outrage to 11.  Reference Lance Armstrong if you're not familiar.

You have a point JP. But If you ask someone "did you dope?", and they answer "I'm the most tested athlete, blah, blah blah", something is up. Can I invoke occam's razor here?

Jules said:

@JohnMalcolmson

I can't abide a world where someone who has the presence of mind to call for help in the midst of a crisis is somehow worse for it.

^ We agree on this and frankly I hope he is exonerated, but let me ask you this: if it happened to you (when you go pro next year), and you know you're innocent, would you let your lawyer release that? The tone sounds like one part apology to me.

JohnMalcolmson said:

Jules said:

@JohnMalcolmson

I can't abide a world where someone who has the presence of mind to call for help in the midst of a crisis is somehow worse for it.

^ We agree on this and frankly I hope he is exonerated, but let me ask you this: if it happened to you (when you go pro next year), and you know you're innocent, would you let your lawyer release that? The tone sounds like one part apology to me.

I think the work analogy is more apt. If you got called into the boss' office and told there was evidence you'd embezzled, would you hit twitter before calling your lawyer?

My answer would be no.

Jules said:

JohnMalcolmson said:

Gaimon on Cardoso...
http://philthethrill.net/thoughts-on-andre-cardosos-positive-test/

It's so odd that we have people like Floyd Landis treated like and absolute pariah to this very day, and then you have this collective amnesia with Puerto dopers like Mancebo still hitting payday—the whole thing is so grossly fucked up. 

I have less & less respect for Gaimon as a professional. The "he didn't act like *I* would have acted" is a classic bit of misogyny that is being transposed here.

We have to, well, we sortta have to take these type of comments with a grain of salt and as they are.

Doping sucks and has damaged cycling dramatically. We want to change this.

Deservedly or not, Gaimon microphone is relatively big and loud, and it does sway some people, and that is sometimes good.

Went it comes to doping, Gaimon wants to live in a black and white binary world. But no one actually lives there. He himself has found this on multiple occasions (re: Danielson)

--- in the real world, bad people do bad stuff, and good people sometimes do bad stuff, some change along the way and go from bad to good, etc..., with all the variations and all the colors and full on range of layers that life actually brings. 

Jules said:

JohnMalcolmson said:

Jules said:

@JohnMalcolmson

I can't abide a world where someone who has the presence of mind to call for help in the midst of a crisis is somehow worse for it.

if it happened to you (when you go pro next year), and you know you're innocent, would you let your lawyer release that?

I think the work analogy is more apt. If you got called into the boss' office and told there was evidence you'd embezzled, would you hit twitter before calling your lawyer?

My answer would be no.

I think we can all agree this dude in all likelihood doped.

Regardles of guilt or innocence, his life is upside down. When in crisis, people sometimes rely on or hire "experts" (this case an attorney) to come fix it and make it all ok. In those cases, most people do what the experts suggests.

eloy said:

--- in the real world, bad people do bad stuff, and good people sometimes do bad stuff, some change along the way and go from bad to good, etc..., with all the variations and all the colors and full on range of layers that life actually brings. 

You forgot the most troubling (to me): when bad people do good stuff...

Um, how did I miss this?

http://www.bicycling.com/culture/netflix-icarus-russia-doping-scandal

Jules said:

Um, how did I miss this?

http://www.bicycling.com/culture/netflix-icarus-russia-doping-scandal

you don't get the NY Times? 

mugwump said:

Jules said:

Um, how did I miss this?

http://www.bicycling.com/culture/netflix-icarus-russia-doping-scandal

you don't get the NY Times? 

they reviewed it Friday.

I read it less and less, although I have the excuse of having been camping last week.

facepalm
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/shane-perkins-granted-russian-citizenship-by-president-putin/

We need a vomit button.

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/09/doping-documentary-interview-icarus-director-bryan-fogel/

The movie is truly out of this world and great, because Fogel stumbles into the top levels of corruption in the world. 

There's a side to the movie that bothers me tremendously, Fogel original intent was to dope for the haute route -- and as much as he says it is, it is almost clear this pursuit is not journalistic.

eloy said:

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/09/doping-documentary-interview-icarus-director-bryan-fogel/

The movie is truly out of this world and great, because Fogel stumbles into the top levels of corruption in the world. 

There's a side to the movie that bothers me tremendously, Fogel original intent was to dope for the haute route -- and as much as he says it is, it is almost clear this pursuit is not journalistic.

The whole initial reasoning really doesn't come across well in the film , the interview was far more informative

The whole thing is disgusting and I'm glad his Di-2 crapped the bed and destroyed all of his well laid, devious plans

Mark Taylor said:

eloy said:

 
There's a side to the movie that bothers me tremendously, Fogel original intent was to dope for the haute route -- and as much as he says it is, it is almost clear this pursuit is not journalistic.

The whole initial reasoning really doesn't come across well in the film , the interview was far more informative

It's far more informative and yet I don't think Fogel explains himself well, or if he is, he's coming down on the side of doping.  His explanation seems to rest on creating a false equivalency between dopers and clean riders.  And his further rationale goes pretty close to justifying doping, especially his comments about "a level playing field."

mugwump said:

Mark Taylor said:

eloy said:

 
There's a side to the movie that bothers me tremendously, Fogel original intent was to dope for the haute route -- and as much as he says it is, it is almost clear this pursuit is not journalistic.

The whole initial reasoning really doesn't come across well in the film , the interview was far more informative

It's far more informative and yet I don't think Fogel explains himself well, or if he is, he's coming down on the side of doping.  His explanation seems to rest on creating a false equivalency between dopers and clean riders.  And his further rationale goes pretty close to justifying doping, especially his comments about "a level playing field."

fully agree. 

The whole "i'm going to prove the tests don't work" misses the point because he's avoiding a bio passport

Oh FFS

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/23/sports/iditarod-dog-doping-dallas-seavey.html?

I suppose the only thing that would be worse than unenforceable anti doping would be guys throwing races for.... oh nevermind.

http://www.velonews.com/2017/10/news/new-uci-president-warns-of-illegal-gambling-threat_450852 

Jules said:

Oh FFS

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/23/sports/iditarod-dog-doping-dallas-seavey.html?

Seems like cruelty to animals to give them Tramadol.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/shane-sutton-takes-up-role-with-chinese-track-team/

I feel like a first rate jerk giving someone a hard time for trying to make a living, or for mocking an entire country... but wow this sure smells like going to work for East Germany in the 70's

Where is my trombone?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/10/sports/olympics/russia-doping-winter-olympics.html?

twoyacks said:

http://www.velonews.com/2017/11/news/sutton-used-tues-marginal-gains-sky_452280

Could someone show this article to Wiggins?

mugwump said:

twoyacks said:

http://www.velonews.com/2017/11/news/sutton-used-tues-marginal-gains-sky_452280

Could someone show this article to Wiggins?

Who's Wiggo? I thought he was a rower now. No doping there, nopenopenope.

Froome's "Asthma" just flared up again...Shouldn't this guy be under investigation now?

Late to the party Re: Icarus - good doc. Funny experience watching it - I almost turned it off a couple times during the first half-hour... but not because of any moral problem with it (i sort of liked the brashness of it) - it was just not a good movie for the first half-hour. It felt underdeveloped, like they hadn't shot enough footage, gotten enough good interviews or spent enough time in the edit room - it felt like a cheap version of something that could be good, if they were actually thorough about it.

But in hindsight, the first third makes sense, given the turn the story took and I'm sure that turn helped them secure more funding and enabled them to put a lot more time and talent into the rest of the doc and then they just never went back and massaged that first third to be a bit more thorough and polished, because they had such a dynamite story twist. What a crazy story to stumble into - I'm really interested in how the producers adapted to dealing with such a sensitive, potentially dangerous subject, while trying to make a movie.

Another bites the dust.
https://www.cxmagazine.com/usada-ped-suspension-jenna-blandford-cyclocross-masters-nationals

The Jenna Blandford/Jeff Miller story is specially shocking and sad. Awful defined.

eloy said:

The Jenna Blandford/Jeff Miller story is specially shocking and sad. Awful defined.

It's even worse than bad. It's appalling.