Bicycle Tech/Gear Discussion Thread

Jul 23, 2012 at 03:17 PM

I once had a wheel that gave no end of trouble. I was constantly tinkering and replacing pieces of the freehub in an attempt to get rid of an annoying noise. Eric dubbed it my 'Emma wheel' named after my teenage daughter (don't mention this to my wife). I finally delegated it to cross where I couldn't hear - or no longer cared about - the annoying noise. After a season or two, the rim blew apart and it sits in a pile of other dead wheels in the basement. Reason for my story is to convince you that your wheel is hopeless. Overtensioning a spoke is a last gasp effort to save a dead wheel and was bound to fail. Lucky it did so in your house rather than on the road. Save the hub for a rebuild. The rim is toast. RB was in an awkward spot. No customer wants to hear that their rim is toast. Some other bike shop will always be happy to take your money and claim to fix it.

@ Ryan, tend to agree with Stokes. If the rim is warped re-tensioning the wheel is unlikely to give you much additional life.

However! The twisted aero spokes thing isn't so hot; I took the brand new Bontrager extralight's I bought off Bertucco (congratulations on baby Marc!) to RB for truing and then a week later they were out again, so I took them back. They told me whomever had trued them hadn't held the blades while truing and so they twist, then slowly unwind (or break) and the wheel comes out of true. Doh, you guys trued them! So, to me that's a bit suspect. When my wheels with bladed spokes are out a little, I true my own with a pair of plyers to hold blades in place.

mugwump

Jul 23, 2012 at 03:46 PM

@John.

There's a tool called "twist resist," a modified third-hand brake tool, that can hold bladed spokes. Shimano also makes a much simpler tool for the same job. Another way to to it is over-tighten by a quarter turn and then de-tension by that same amount.

Ryan J

Jul 23, 2012 at 04:08 PM

Yeah I watched the mechanic do it - the first part anyway, and he was holding the bladed spokes as described. So I can't be sure he's the one who left the spoke twisted; it could've been someone else.

I'm in LA and there's a really good wheel builder I trust so I'll take it in for an assessment.

If the wheel is indeed shot, I think I'll be in the market for something crank-based. I really like those HED wheels, but with the heavier power tap (I've got the Pro+ w/o the cutouts) they're really significantly heavy for someone my size and I no longer use them in races with any hills. So I don't love the idea of putting more money into them.

Ryan J

Jul 24, 2012 at 05:04 AM

Predator (probably the most respected wheel builder in LA) says it sounds like Ride twisted my spokes and f'd up my wheel. Good news is he's offering to replace the rims and re-lace whole thing for under $200. Apparently the HED rims are cheap.

ian ellis

Jul 24, 2012 at 01:12 PM

Honestly, most LBS these days lack the requisite skill to build or maintain wheels. The fact the NYC Velo can build them is good to hear (they didn't have that skill 4 years ago - they subcontracted to some 'old guy out in Long Island')

Next LBS will be losing the skill to fix tubulars :-)

dstokes

Jul 24, 2012 at 01:12 PM

If it is the wheel I looked at, then it wasn't clear how to fix it, since the nipples would not rotate relative to the spokes. Anyway, I never trust anyone in a shop. I am rarely satisfied, though that may because I only take them things that are difficult/hopeless. Time to have another wrenching workshop!

Anyway, new rim is the way to go!

Jeff Owens

Jul 24, 2012 at 02:08 PM

I think the issue for twisted blades is that they think it's just an aero concern (or more likely, they just didn't notice like when Ride replaced one on my Ksyriums! They also forgot to replace a second one, so I now get to pay for a second truing when that one explodes. I like them, but there's a lack of communication between their various mechanics. Not the first time.), but if the spokes are grounded at the hub, they're getting stressed bc the rotation isn't uniform all the way to the rim.

Obviously, they tried to realign a bent rim by over tensioning one side, like they told you. Which was a decent idea, but since the blades were twisted, it's gonna stress them so badly who knows if the rim was that bad? If predator says it's too bent and needs to be replaced, I wouldn't be too upset with ride. They tried. But if the blades hadn't been twisted, maybe it would have worked for a bit longer? Hopefully you didn't waste more than $40.

Adam

Jul 26, 2012 at 01:25 PM

OK, I give up. Can someone please explain to me the tiers of Campag groupsets??

I thought that it was as follows, with the best/most expensive at the top

Super Record

Record

Chorus

Athena

Centaur

Veloce

Shimano's tiering system is as follows:

Dura Ace

Ultegra

105

Tiagra

Sora

I understand that Campag is more expensive than Shimano and SRAM but I am still confused as to the 'quality'. I just saw a bike that was available available in the following setups:

Campag Chorus $5500

Shimano Ultegra $3300

Shimano Ultegra Di2 $4500

So, is Chorus actually on par with Record or something? I don't seem to understand. What's the crack? I mean, in my mind an assessment of 'quality' for Chorus would probably put it between 105 and Ultegra but the pricing, even including the premium you might pay for it just being Campag, suggests that it is more like Dura Ace/Ultegra. Note: I have never ridden Campag, just making assessments based on what I thought their tiers were and other comparable products I have used.

Confused. Also, I ask as I really want to get a Campag groupset at some point and have no idea what's going on.

ian ellis

Jul 26, 2012 at 01:53 PM

I've been a campag guy for years (recently switched to Shimano for the electronic stuff, but may switch back).

I would pitch Chorus well above Ultegra and only slightly behind (mechanical) Dura Ace in terms of quality.

The main difference between Record and Chorus is with the internal engineering, where bearings replace bushings, different quality seals, etc. Some record parts are actually slightly heavier than the chorus version because of the engineering upgrade. The most differentiated part is the cassette with 6 Titanium sprockets.

From a weight and engineering perspective I think many would put Record ahead of D-A.

Then super record is just a maxed out tour-de-force for the Fondo and club ride crowd (I'm jealous), even most protour teams only give this to a select few riders. Titanium is used extensively for bolts, the crankset, the entire cassette, some of the shifter internals to maximize weight loss.

IMHO: A combined Campagnolo/Shimano list:

Super Record

Record

Dura Ace

Chorus

Ultegra

Athena

105

Centaur

Veloce

Tiagra

Sora

Jules

Jul 26, 2012 at 02:14 PM

I read this and had to do a little research. Bushing (Left) Bearing (Right) below:

Adam

Jul 26, 2012 at 02:35 PM

Thanks Ian, that was exactly the sort of explanation I was after.

I was amazed that Campag have recently released electronic Athena. I thought to myself 'sweet', as I have been eagerly awaiting the time when electric is released at the 105 price level. Then I read the Campag press release which says that they released the Athena EPS to be on par with Ultegra Di2 price-wise! Obviously, this confused me.

Your list explains that somewhat.

mugwump

Jul 26, 2012 at 02:59 PM

I think Ian hit it spot on. About the only drawback of Chorus in my opinion is you don't get those little cut-outs in the brake lever blade--weight difference here is negligible. And you don't get the Record name. Also, when the pulleys start to wear out, you upgrade to pulleys with bearings.

mattie davitt

Jul 26, 2012 at 03:14 PM

I think Ian hit it spot on. About the only drawback of Chorus in my opinion is you don't get those little cut-outs in the brake lever blade--weight difference here is negligible. And you don't get the Record name. Also, when the pulleys start to wear out, you upgrade to pulleys with bearings.

Chorus is the racing man's choice. Or even Chorus shifters with Athena 11 making up the balance.

Jeffrey White

Jul 27, 2012 at 07:01 PM

"The Racing Man's Choice"

Trademark that.

Jules

Jul 28, 2012 at 09:28 PM

Ok, file this on under "high class problems:

I bought a beautiful new BB30 Quarq, 2012 mated to SRAM Red. My plan was to swap the new Red chainrings for the older crappier SRAM Froce chainrings on my cross bike and voila! Power to the Cross bike.

But... the new SRAM Red seems to have a "hidden bolt" that lines up with the crank arm and relies on a "built in" chainring bolt that comes attached to the red chainring.

I can't even FIND a 39/46 chainring set for 2012 red for sale... what's the story?

mugwump

Jul 28, 2012 at 10:28 PM

THey've been making the stuff available as it comes in. I don't expect we'll see it until September.

Jules

Jul 28, 2012 at 11:35 PM

Is there a little tool with an allen key end that I can sneak in between the crank arm and the chain ring to tighten with?

Eric showed me that I can juuuuust fit one side of the nut in there, but I need a special tool to grab it whilst I tighten the other side.

eragot

Jul 29, 2012 at 01:11 AM

I have it for you. And a chainring bolt to boot. Sitting on the counter waiting for you.

Jules

Jul 29, 2012 at 01:13 AM

Thanks Eric. Now the damn bottom bracket axle seems too wide to fit. I'll spin by tomorrow apres race if that's ok.

mattie davitt

Jul 29, 2012 at 01:18 AM

Thanks Eric. Now the damn bottom bracket axle seems too wide to fit. I'll spin by tomorrow apres race if that's ok.

you got that preload ring doohickey on there? if it was on your cervelo before, you didn't use it, but you will now on a normal bb30.

eragot

Jul 29, 2012 at 01:28 AM

@mattie davitt - you mean the wavy washer and the plastic spacers?

sounds like an awful singing group from the 1960s...

Jules

Jul 29, 2012 at 01:33 AM

Mattie, it is new crank; it came with a preload doohicky attached. The spindle just seems soooo damn tight. I'm afraid to force it in lest I mar the spindle.

I have to put the crank in from the non drive side, and even that just seems too tight to manage.

Jules

Jul 29, 2012 at 02:03 AM

Ok, bit more force than I was comfortable with and the spindle went straight through. But... there is a 1cm spacer... does that go on the drive side or, god forbid, the non-drive side?

I'm new to BB30, and the old crank I took off has no such thing.

Jules

Jul 29, 2012 at 02:23 AM

Ok, pictures:

Preload thingy (flush against crank arm)

photo 1.JPG

Jules

Jul 29, 2012 at 02:23 AM

Look at all this extra fucking spindle! What gives?

photo 2.JPG

Jules

Jul 29, 2012 at 02:24 AM

Ok, add the big ass spacer and things look a little more normal, if a little extraneous (why do I need 1 more joint where crud can creep in?)

photo 3.JPG

Jules

Jul 29, 2012 at 02:25 AM

What about the "wave" washer?

Does it go here, on the end?

photo 4.JPG

mattie davitt

Jul 29, 2012 at 03:56 AM

You shouldn't need that wavy washer at all, that's only if you're using on BBright. The big ugly spacer goes where you have it, on the DS. http://www.quarq.com/i/95-6118-004-000_REV_A_RED_Quarq_BB30_IA_Addendum.pdf

Jules

Jul 29, 2012 at 02:22 PM

Thanks Mattie, much appreciated

I'm stuffed on that hidden bolt though. Even using a Shimano chain bolt & tool there isn't enough room between chainring and crank arm to fit something to hold a bolt.

Looks like integrated chainring bolt is the only way to go, unless I can prefab an L-shaped allen key with a 2mm clearance.

Balls.

Jules

Jul 29, 2012 at 02:30 PM

@ Mattie I have this diagram (it came in the box) but I found it immensely unhelpful. For example, WTF is

step #2

-Point screwdriver inside something?

With your reassurance however, I see exactly what you are saying.

Is the big ugly spacer to be discarded if you run it on bbright?