Kissena Forum Archive

Red Hook Crit

465 comments · 4530 views

Not a secret that I am a big supporter of this race. 

I love that some of the comments here are constructive.

The solution is always to make the race better.

Understandable that some disagree, but I have known Dave for many years, and I know that he and the RHC crew care immensely about rider safety.

Finding notable comments that are supporting of the race was easy.


From: David Holloway

I guess I should put in my .02 on Redhook.

Facts. 
-One the more overall best organized events I've participated in.
-Rider to rider the least ego I've seen at a race. Also everyone willing to help everyone with any problem.
-One of the safer venues I've raced in as far as road conditions and barrier placements. 
-I think the only fully closed course I'll race on this year (no spectator crossing) which is very nice.
-I'll be going back with no questions about organizational safety.

Other thoughts about this style of racing.
-people crash bikes doing more "pro" racing and also down a sidewalk
-once the race was going it felt like any other race, maybe even more predictable as no one could grab a fist full of brake for no reason 
-some of the other non moto crash highlights are from humans making poor decisions like any other racing, brakes don't always save you.
-for the first time in awhile I was quite challenged with the task at hand. Brakes and coasting can make some forget how hard it can be to drive a bike.

Things I wouldn't hate to see.
-warning lights instead of flags. Much easier for everyone to see. 
-softer style barriers in higher speed exits from corners. Ideally this would help both riders and spectators

The event that has caused the spark of the discussion was a human error, one that happens millions of times a day globally. How many pro tour guys have been victim to others human error?



From: Richard Sachs

Uh I dunno. The Red Hook Criterium is eight years old and international in scope. Trimble and Co have infected an entire generation of young people with a different version of bicycle racing than we're used to. There are no conventions. No history to adhere to. No layers upon layers of bureaucracy to tell us what can or can't be done, or used. It's a fun event. And it's a large and good demographic for the industry.

Last night's wreck was an aberration. But it was an accident. Could it have been avoided? I guess so, but I wasn't driving the moto when it stalled, and know even less about motorcycles. Maybe it was unavoidable. We'll never know atmo. It's a race on bicycles with no brakes or freewheels. Any crashes (and there have been many over the years) are going to be spectacular and fodder for the experts after the feeds go viral.

I like the format and expect it will endure. It's fun and lively, and there's a metric ton of enthusiasm for it. And after almost a decade of these being run in Brooklyn and around the globe, there are no scandals or doping stories. We can't say that about our beloved (sic) sanctioned races that we follow on the pro level and even enter locally for fun. In many respects, the RHC is a lot more entertaining than watching 4-5 similarly dressed automatons spend five hours dragging a team leader to the base of a finishing hill.

I'm sure the accident will be looked at under a scope and RHC in all its versions will come out the better for it.



From: Chad Hartley 

Opinion from inside the Red Hook Criterium
I've been racing bikes for 20 years, Holloway has been for 15 years. So it isn't often we go into an event not knowing what to expect. Whether it's the course on a bike without brakes, whether it's the diverse skill and background of the field. There was a lot of unknowns. 

For me qualifying went poorly (but enough to still get a second chance), Daniel and Nate did well on bikes we all first rode that day. 

When I got into the Last Chance Qualifier (18 lap race) everything started to click. It was a mash up of crit racing, top level track racing, and even a bit like cross. I called on a lot of skills learned though my years. It was a lot to take in and process and still have a clear head to actually race. Dan described my riding in the LCQ as surgical. And it's what it felt like, I was new to it, but I knew exactly what to do. It felt awesome to have a healthy fear of the unknown and conquer it.

By now we've all seen the Moto incident. Things happen, it's happened before at Athens too, it's happens at World Cups in Europe. Will there be crashes? Yes, always in EVERY bike race. Will it stop me? No. 

I love the chaos, the unpredictability of Redhooks, it makes you think on your feet, it challenges you, demands your best. 

I for one will be lining up in London, so thank you and see you soon.



From: Christofer DeHahn

I attended the event for the first time Saturday. I am also a USAC official but was obviously not working. The first crash may have been avoided with proper moto positioning. The second crash on the restart had nothing to do with the moto and could have been avoided by not giving the riders a countdown. Give them 30s and start at any time. The prime on the first lap does create some anxiety in the field. The 90 minute delay could have been avoided by having more than the minimum number of ambulances onsite to meet the permit requirements. All that said I had one of the best times I've ever had at a bike race. The course, the venue, the vibe, and the views of lower Manhattan and the Statue of Liberty were astounding. These problems are easily fixed (no pun intended). I will be back next year for sure.



From: Steve Tilford

I posted that crash below at the Red Hook Criterium yesterday.  It is so funny because that is the first most people had heard about these races.  They have been going on for a while.  I was looking into going to one a couple years ago.  I missed the boat because lots of good “real criterium” riders are doing them now.  Daniel Holloway, Aldo Ino Ilesic, Colin Stickland, who won, even Tristan Uhl, Texan MTB/Cross/Road Racer, was in the top 10.  I envy those guys for making the effort to go there to race.

It is too bad that the motorcycle crash is how most of us were exposed to these races.  I like the energy and freedom this race series is exhibiting.  I talked to a couple of the Lupus racing guys last weekend at Joe Martin and they said that they had done Red Hook races and that they had to be super focused for the whole time.  Picking the right gear, they are fixed gear races, qualifying and then the race.

I sometimes wish that “normal criterium” racing would take some deviations and try to capture some of this enthusiasm.  I think that any night criterium on a short course, with a ton of corners, is super exciting. Brakes or no brakes.

...

So, before you start judging these Red Hook races as ghetto bike races and a silly fad, give it a chance.  It is bike racing and these guys have a ton of skill.  I very much doubt that Alberto or Chris would make it a lap without paying their dues.  I like it and would like to ride one sometime.

just got word the crit this year went through 60 kegs, who wants to go halfsies on an investment opportunity?! For you non-number ppl...that's 10,746 beers! (10,746 X $5/drink = $53,730 - $3,250ish to fill kegs = $50k in beer sales)!
funny, I always stopped by one of the bodegas on the way and brought my own.

John, if you could stop people from bringing in outside beer, you could definitely increase the number of kegs.
really though, whats stopping one from hosting a PP night crit? I mean even the cost of temp lighting still wouldn't outweigh $$$ you'd make. Is it the parks dept?

really though, whats stopping one from hosting a PP night crit? I mean even the cost of temp lighting still wouldn't outweigh $$$ you'd make. Is it the parks dept?
What are the three keys to running races in NYC: Permits, permits, permits. Since we cannot close the road to other users in PP, there is a higher risk when running races in peak park visitor times like the evenings.

There was a non-sanctioned series of night races at PP on fixed gear bikes that was run by a former Kissena, which was something that put all of our USAC racing at risk, since most parks users cannot tell the difference between official races and unsanctioned races, and paint us all with the same broad brush as reckless spandex-clad Lance-wannabes.*









*not that anybody here wants to be Lance, but like I said a broad brush. 
haha @Dan Reiners some people still wear the livestrong wrislets.

If someone could demonstrate  to the org granting permits that the event can be held safely, it might provide for a culturally-enriching experience for the community..i bet they would reconsider.

Can the roads not be closed off at all?? Even after say 7pm? Im sure they could make an exception one or two nights a year...
Winning or placing at a "Boogie Nights" at PP used to auto-qualify you for Red Hook entry in the old days.
Sounds like we need an insider on the community board haha
Dani King was snubbed by British Cycling and not included in the olympic team.



So with no clear plans for summer, she signed up for the red hook crit. 



Leaving out details, she eventually attacked and lapped every single rider except 2nd and 3rd place. No one has dominated the RHC in such clear fashion ever.




really though, whats stopping one from hosting a PP night crit? I mean even the cost of temp lighting still wouldn't outweigh $$$ you'd make. Is it the parks dept?
What are the three keys to running races in NYC: Permits, permits, permits. Since we cannot close the road to other users in PP, there is a higher risk when running races in peak park visitor times like the evenings.

There was a non-sanctioned series of night races at PP on fixed gear bikes that was run by a former Kissena, which was something that put all of our USAC racing at risk, since most parks users cannot tell the difference between official races and unsanctioned races, and paint us all with the same broad brush as reckless spandex-clad Lance-wannabes.*

*not that anybody here wants to be Lance, but like I said a broad brush. 
To be fair Dan, the only people in PP at midnight are cops, the odd sex worker and a bunch of guys getting their jollies off in the woods.  


really though, whats stopping one from hosting a PP night crit? I mean even the cost of temp lighting still wouldn't outweigh $$$ you'd make. Is it the parks dept?
What are the three keys to running races in NYC: Permits, permits, permits. Since we cannot close the road to other users in PP, there is a higher risk when running races in peak park visitor times like the evenings.

There was a non-sanctioned series of night races at PP on fixed gear bikes that was run by a former Kissena, which was something that put all of our USAC racing at risk, since most parks users cannot tell the difference between official races and unsanctioned races, and paint us all with the same broad brush as reckless spandex-clad Lance-wannabes.*

*not that anybody here wants to be Lance, but like I said a broad brush. 
To be fair Dan, the only people in PP at midnight are cops, the odd sex worker and a bunch of guys getting their jollies off in the woods.  

Having a presence at night might deter the would-be jollie-goers from any tomfoolery during a PP night crit. Sounds like another safety selling point to the folks handing out permits. 
.  

Having a presence at night might deter the would-be jollie-goers from any tomfoolery during a PP night crit. Sounds like another safety selling point to the folks handing out permits. 
The above is an argument many made for the (probably) now long departed Central Park night ride.  It was an institution for years in the bad old days, but needed to come to heel as people discovered the park was safe at night
The cover of July's Velonews:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/07/magazine/velonews-magazine-july-2016_413477



inside the mag:


Sigh, I guess evolve or go extinct (or endangered or even worse, irrelevant).
David, you and I will be the old guys standing on the side of the road reminiscing about the good old days of brakes on racing bikes. 

Also that photo is ridiculous, who says no to brakes, but hell yeah to some dodgy back scratcher fender, or maybe that's some foot lever actuated tire brake.


Specialized killing it with team Allez Allez



https://www.facebook.com/redhookcrit/posts/1260279090657367#
and companion video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9m1rW8Ovtc
New Haven Grand Prix sounds like it's trying to follow a Red Hook type race atmosphere with a night schedule and spectator friendly food and entertainment options, though the course is a more classic 4 square crit like Harlem:

https://www.newhavengp.com/

Adapt or die?



Adapt or die?

As in, can we replicate this in Harlem?
Perhaps, though I'm not sure how successful New Haven or Harlem would be compared to Red Hook.
My eyes...why does Specialized hate my eyes?
Wiggle Hight5's Chloe Hosking writes about watching the RHC

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/08/these-women-have-more-guts-than-hulk-hogan-chloe-hosking-on-finding-the-courage-to-watch-the-red-hook-crit/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX-l7q40J8c

https://www.specialized.com/red-hook
Nice execution... biting on Sottsass though! The Sottsass who's famous for such awesome things as a typewriter intended to evoke the feeling of Mickey Mouse. I'm afraid this guy adds to the problem where "design" is too often trivialized into glittery novelty. 
hot bikes are glittery.
FYI followup on the NHGP

http://www.newhavenindependent.org/index.php/archives/entry/grand_prix_races_/
@JohnMalcolmson respectfully disagree - Erik Nohlin is responsible for designing some of the best stuff Specialized has going for it (says the guy who rides a bike designed by him). Not crazy about this one though - it's very not his usual fare.
@JohnMalcolmson respectfully disagree - Erik Nohlin is responsible for designing some of the best stuff Specialized has going for it (says the guy who rides a bike designed by him). Not crazy about this one though - it's very not his usual fare.
I do dig his gravel bike design, well thought out.