Jules, 

i agree that the incentives are screwed with the way that the spoils of races are not split fairly between racers, teams and organizers at the top level. i fundamentally disagree on the anti doping rules, yes there a exceptions you can drive the Orica bus thru (unlike most finish lines), but the rules are the rules. 

Whether they are applied equally. Well that is a bigger issue and isn’t so good for Froome dawg who seems to be going for the strictest legal defense. It seems like he’s hoping to drag his case out as long as possible and ride the TdF while this cloud hangs over him. He is rubbing it in everybody’s face that he’s a cheater but he’s gonna get away because of money and his tenacity. 

Ive never been a big Froome fan. He has all the panache and charisma of a wet paper towel, and his ever-changing asthma/lung parasite/kidney failure excuses all seem to defy any credulity. If he’s so sick how can he drop people like they’re standing still? 

this is all to say. You can both hate the player and hate the game. Froome, Sky and UCI are all s***ty, corrupt and are destroying cycling long-term for their own short term benefit. A pox on all their houses. 

Agreed...except for that last bit about the POC’s...Sky wears KASK

To be perfectly clear, I think anyone in the top 10 is doping. FFS Aru tried drafting in a televised Time Trial. These guys have a very different understanding of "what's ok" than we do.

That written, the rule makers and enforcers are just - or arguably even more - corrupt. The Giro benefits from having Froome attend while under this cloud. In fact, everyone benefits - sponsors, teams, race organizers, rider ... and all of the risk is concentrated on the rider. That's a great deal for all involved and the rider if anything, is the chump.

The "rules" aren't taken seriously by the enforcers - as proven by multiple leaks, coverups, strange forgivenesses, contradictions and (ahem) lapses in enforcement.

Froome isn't shitting on anyone's race, or sport. The sport is an outhouse. And by all professional sport standards, it's the cleanest outhouse on the planet.

Dude, the curlers are doping.

As for long term destruction of the sport - I disagree. The corrupt nature of professional sports makes it hard to watch once you've seen inside the sausage machine - but it definitely isn't causing sponsors to back out or back up, or race organizers to stop putting on races.

Wealthy patrons back pro cycling for the same reasons they buy airlines - because they want to walk the tarmac in a leather jacket with a silk scarf and smell the jet fuel. It's an ego game, not a business endeavor.

That cyclingtips article is BS. It tries to align the ride of Froome only with the exploits of the 90's-2000's and chooses to ignore the types of performance riders put in during the golden 'clean' age of cycling in the 70's and 80's.

Bernard Hinault (a total hero of mine, I have many posters of him in my house) recently criticized Froome's ride and him taking 3 minutes on a stage...... He has a short memory.

In the 1986 TdF Hinault came 3rd in the prologue and then won the 60+ km TT by 44" from Greg Lemond.

On a mountainous stage 12 he rode away from all the major contenders a long way from the finish, scaled the Cat 1 col de marie-blanque and finished 3.5 mins ahead of his rivals.

btw - After starting the race so strongly Hinault then suffered a collapse in the 3rd week and lost the tour.

This is why I believe Chris's ride is plausible. There are similar feats  from previous, heralded eras of the sport. 

And regarding all the hysteria about Froome riding while under investigation, etc.
The rules say he can. End Of.

Either he is doing a Landis and lying to everyone when he knows he is guilty. In which case he is cunt.
Or (as he says) he really is innocent and will prove it. As an athlete he has a limited career and hence limited opportunities to win. If he is innocent and believes he will be vindicated why should he miss races ? and the opportunity to further his earnings and palmares. Imagine if he sat out a year and was ultimately cleared !!!! He won't get that year back.

^the rules also state that his salbutomol case should have remained confidential, but hey - we only get outraged when the rider cheats, not the organization... 

I also seem to remember a tremendous solo attack in 2008 by Carlos Sastre, the "likely only" clean GC rider ever when he got close to 3 (?) minutes...

ian ellis said:

That cyclingtips article is BS. It tries to align the ride of Froome only with the exploits of the 90's-2000's and chooses to ignore the types of performance riders put in during the golden 'clean' age of cycling in the 70's and 80's.

Bernard Hinault (a total hero of mine, I have many posters of him in my house) recently criticized Froome's ride and him taking 3 minutes on a stage...... He has a short memory.

In the 1986 TdF Hinault came 3rd in the prologue and then won the 60+ km TT by 44" from Greg Lemond.

On a mountainous stage 12 he rode away from all the major contenders a long way from the finish, scaled the Cat 1 col de marie-blanque and finished 3.5 mins ahead of his rivals.

btw - After starting the race so strongly Hinault then suffered a collapse in the 3rd week and lost the tour.

This is why I believe Chris's ride is plausible. There are similar feats  from previous, heralded eras of the sport. 

ian ellis said:

That cyclingtips article is BS. It tries to align the ride of Froome only with the exploits of the 90's-2000's and chooses to ignore the types of performance riders put in during the golden 'clean' age of cycling in the 70's and 80's.

Bernard Hinault (a total hero of mine, I have many posters of him in my house) recently criticized Froome's ride and him taking 3 minutes on a stage...... He has a short memory.

In the 1986 TdF Hinault came 3rd in the prologue and then won the 60+ km TT by 44" from Greg Lemond.

On a mountainous stage 12 he rode away from all the major contenders a long way from the finish, scaled the Cat 1 col de marie-blanque and finished 3.5 mins ahead of his rivals.

btw - After starting the race so strongly Hinault then suffered a collapse in the 3rd week and lost the tour.

This is why I believe Chris's ride is plausible. There are similar feats  from previous, heralded eras of the sport. 

Do you really believe the 70's & 80s were a clean age ?

Jules said:

but it definitely isn't causing sponsors to back out or back up, or race organizers to stop putting on races.

Didn't you win Battenkill? That was a big race, where is it now? Remember Union Vale, Housatonic, Catskills, etc, etc, etc... I can draw a straight line from Armstrong, and doping, to the lack of a young demographic, lost of races and sponsorship.

ian ellis said:

 If he is innocent and believes he will be vindicated why should he miss races ? 

Because it hurts the sport. Regardless if Froome is clean, I can say this with complete certainty: Froome winning the Giro di Italia with this cloud over him, and with that stage ride, will ultimately damage cycling credibility. Arguably, it already has.

The MPCC, for example, understand this, which is why their riders would not have been allowed to race under the same circumstances than Froome.

Thanks for bringing a smile to my face Eloy; I'm home sick as a dog wondering when I'll ever be able to breathe right again.

Battenkill didn't stop being a USAC race because of doping; it stopped because Dieter couldn't make enough money even at 100 bucks entry fee.

I don't think the inexorable decline of amateur races is due to a lack of interested participants; the economics don't make sense anymore and the promoters haven't embraced competing with & emulating what attracts folks to fondos and charity rides. 

If doping is killing bike racing then why isn't it killing fondos, running, NBA/NHL/MBA, soccer, etc?

If I really have to point to a source of the decline in USAC races I'd highlight three things (in no particular order)

1. Promoters have largely refused to embrace what people love about fondos & color runs: giving all participants something they can take home and brag about - be it a tshirt, action photo, swag, etc. It's prize money for the three guys on the podium and fuck-all for the rest of the field.
2. USAC as an organization doesn't support race organizers; their focus is Olympic selection, not Olympic results. Things like race kits, race reg, insurance, league standings etc are all woefully lacking - which is why you see folks like crossresults and strava eating their breakfast.
3. Since the 70's & 80's there has been a huge growth in "professionalized" youth sport - leagues for soccer, football, basketball, hockey, baseball, lacrosse, swimming, etc have sucked the air out of the base of kids who would grow to become adult racers. Most racers now are cat 4&5 masters age, and there is no good way for people to learn the needed handling skills. The risk, combined with the narrow demographic make for a very short window of hardcore racing.

#my2cents

@Mark Taylor I know for a fact that the 70's and 80's were not totally clean. Nor were the 60's, 50's, etc. However they are considered cleaner the 20 years 1990-2010.
I think doping is probably as prevalent now as it was in the era of Hinault. 

@Eloy The races you mention did not stop because of a Armstrong being a doper at all. They stopped because organizing them became far too difficult. Enough of the residents of the town of Pawling objected to the race that the organizer couldn't get a permit. The Police would only grant a permit to Dieter for his race if each field had a leading and following car and lots more police were involved. Those costs meant Dieter was not making enough money even with the $100+ entry fees.
If you look carefully it is only races conducted on public roads that are dwindling, because of the logistical challenges and costs. Closed circuit races such as crits or Watermelon, etc are going on just fine.

@Eloy There are only 7 WT teams in the MPCC and 5 of them are among the 7 worst performing teams this year. I am sure some people will say that this is proof that other teams are cheating, but would you rather watch a race starring Quickstep, Sky, Movistar and Astana or a different race with AG2R, Dimension Data, EF Drapac and FDJ. I rest my case ;-)

I was done with this but , just read this on velonews, not a great list of examples 

It’s cycling, so scrutiny is expected for a ride of this nature. Why is Froome’s raid believable?

Fred: Plenty of great champions have shown the ability to get stronger in the third week of a Grand Tour. It’s the old “ride yourself into shape” routine. Jan Ullrich used to do it all the time, as did Roberto Heras, Aitor Gonzalez, and even Ivan Gotti. Chris Horner really came on strong in that final week to win the 2013 Vuelta. Stefano Garzelli put in an unpredictably strong time trial to win the 2000 Giro in dramatic fashion on the penultimate stage. So yeah, it’s not unheard of.

I understand the complexities of the state of road cycling. I am not arguing it is the only cause, but there's an obvious relationship between the state of amateur road racing, and the fact that cycling -- because of doping/cheating -- is not a great sport to sponsor or market. 

@Jules the causes you state are correct, and so is mine. They are not exclusive or unrelated.

ian ellis said:

@Eloy The races you mention did not stop because of a Armstrong being a doper at all. They stopped because organizing them became far too difficult. 

They became too difficult and costly, in part, because of a disinterest and distrust that is directly related to doping, Armstrong behavior, and the state of the sport.

There are 32 riders totals signed up for Watermelon today -- here's my $5 bet: Watermelon is in its last 2 years.

@Eloy would you rather watch a race starring Quickstep, Sky, Movistar and Astana or a different race with AG2R, Dimension Data, EF Drapac and FDJ. I rest my case ;-)

Prefer to watch a race where sport matters.

Frankly, I could be a fan, if Quickstep, Sky, Movistar and Astana were openly for clean sport.

Didn't do it consciously but I do follow cyclocross, MTB, and the Women's world cup a bit more than men's road cycling. Don't think those are totally clean, and there are some egregious idiots there too, but also don't feel I'm being totally robbed.

“I think WADA need to tighten their regulations around TUEs, so they’re not something that we question, their legitimacy,” added Froome.

Then he proceeded to take another hit of prednisolone and win the Dauphine.


Clean riders like Nico Roche go years without a TUE, I'd love to see aggregate data from WADA—even if it was just how many for each rider, it'd set a different tone... Russia if you're listening.
 

^ great find.They sure did bury that lead deep!

I think they missed a good Rocky reference opportunity...

Was in Bologna yesterday and saw the first stage. Very, very cool. Some cell phone pictures:

How fast?

Looked like a great stage to watch , all the riders were glowing in the reviews of the stage and the fans

@Will Kalbacker enough about the Giro. What about the food in Bologna ?

@JohnMalcolmson saw them on the climb first. Maybe 20kph on 15% roads. Beasts. Then saw them on the flats. 55+kph. Beasts. 

@ian ellis Food is phenomenal as expected 

Wow, I'm so jealous... My wife and flew to Israel to follow the Giro first three stages last year (2018), and I got to see the TT in Jerusalem. There was a party in the streets! This is such an awesome tour, nothing beats seeing it in real life.

If anyone is watching - today they are finishing in Terracina. The weather is miserable there today but when I was there a few weeks ago it looked like this:

That's so awesome Jim!