Training to Race: Faster, Stronger, Awesomer

Jan 31, 2014 at 02:52 PM

@Aaron - when you go outside, you go up and down, thus tend to go harder and easier. Trying to maintain a steady wattage is very difficult outside. Thus, unless you are really good, you will either be spending time above or below the zone you are trying to train. You may achieve the same averages, but you haven't done the same work.

So, the most efficient way to train a zone is to use a trainer because you can control what you do. The best way to mimic a hill without a hill is on a trainer because it never lets up, while outside, you roll up and roll down. Plus, around here, there aren't really any long climbs.

mugwump

Jan 31, 2014 at 03:05 PM

eragot said:

Given that threshold is max for one hour, rest in between efforts under one hour are not needed!....Regardless of what philosophy we may advocate for, there is no definitive answer.
Finally, riding your bike makes you a better bike rider. What if you don't train threshold? Well, you'll have a bigger base of sub-threshold work in you. You'll get used to threshold (which you rarely ride at in a race) soon enough when you start racing.

Eric,

I think you're kind of missing the point with the first part. There are plenty of reasons not to routinely ride an hour straight of threshold. It's not just that it's mentally draining. It's that it's physically draining as well. Most of the interval formulations we use are about doing just enough without doing to much. Go too hard one day, and you might lose the next three days to recovery. Dig too deep on your first interval and you can't do the second. And that's not necessarily a good hting.

I brought up the 5/1 repeat threshold idea because it's scarely physically easier than the longer blocks, and it accomplishes much the same thing. For people who aren't used to grinding out 20m at threshold, doing 5/1 repeat to build to 20m is a way to grow. After all, if they stop mid long interval and call it a day, that isn't necessarily good.

And the biggest problem is that threshold is not some absolute number, particularly if you don't have a power meter to base your efforts off of. You go hard, really hard. Even if we stipulate that your threshold is X, some days, you're only going to get X-5w. Are you going to call off the session because it's X-5? I hope not.

ANother wrinkle. You start one 20m effort at 100% of threshold. over the course of the effort, you fade, and end up with 93%. Perhaps you could have done the 5/1 drill at 100%. Which one is better?

So why not have people who aren't used to knocking out 20m at threshold twice in a trainer session start simpler, with easier to digest efforts. THey can work up to 20m over time.

I think the comment about suffering in 5m blocks when on a 10-15 minute climb is kind of irrelevant. You keep on going. Just like when you've never ridden more than four hours and you're at four hours with a half hour to go, you don't fall apart. You keep going.

mugwump

Jan 31, 2014 at 03:09 PM

Ryan J said:

This:

eragot said:

There is also a mental aspect to deal with here as well. Lets assume you have to suffer up a 10-15 minute climb, but you are only well trained in suffering for 5 min blocks. Good luck hanging on while you take that 1 min of rest while heading up the climb!

One of the biggest things I've learned from Eric's training is that you've got to do in training what you need to do in a race. If I don't work on my 20-30 minute effort, and then I go to Hilltowns and I ask my body to climb East Hawley at the 300 watts I need to stay in it, it's not going happen.

There was a time when I was winning the Alpine TT but couldn't get a top 10 at a big out of town hilly race. Now I know that's because I did Alpine all out all the time. But I never did longer efforts that way. Soon as I fixed that, my results improved drastically.

You're over-stating the specificity issue. You can work on your 20-30 minute effort in races and rides without even knowing it and be ready for 20-minute climbs. I found that killing it at FBF helped my hillclimbing. And a friend found that track racing helped with his road attacks.

eragot

Jan 31, 2014 at 04:01 PM

@Mugwump - I didn't see you advocating for increasing the amount of time spent at threshold through starting at 5/1 and increasing over time. nor does Verhuel in that article you linked. Thus, to now say that the 5/1 is a good way to grow introduces a new argument to the mix.

Further, I never said do one hour. I agree, its just mental to do that, hence the shorter durations. However, my point is that you don't NEED rest for these. At least not physically. However, mental breaks matter.

As for not completing a long interval - that's called pacing. An important skill for time trialling - either as a race or within a race. You have to know how hard to go and when. Blowing up halfway thorough a 20m interval because you went too hard tells you to ease off more at the beginning, or you are overestimating your threshold. All of that feedback is important to use for the future.

Last comment is about "what if your threshold is x-5w?" 1. Your threshold doesn't change. 2. You can have a bad day and need to use your body's feedback. Also, training is done in Zones. Zones allow for variability... Which led to my final statement - all of the riding helps...

mugwump

Jan 31, 2014 at 06:33 PM

eragot said:

Last comment is about "what if your threshold is x-5w?" 1. Your threshold doesn't change. 2. You can have a bad day and need to use your body's feedback. Also, training is done in Zones. Zones allow for variability... Which led to my final statement - all of the riding helps...

Eric,

I never wrote the above. Only you did.

Ryan J

Jan 31, 2014 at 07:12 PM

mugwump said:

You're over-stating the specificity issue. You can work on your 20-30 minute effort in races and rides without even knowing it and be ready for 20-minute climbs. I found that killing it at FBF helped my hillclimbing. And a friend found that track racing helped with his road attacks.

I don't think so, I think you're just reinforcing my point but doing it in more general terms. "Killing it at FBF" and "hill climbing" could mean a lot things. But I'm guessing "killing it at FBF" means you did long periods of steady power within that race, and that "hill climbing" means longer climbs. If I'm right about your meaning, than that is exactly what I'm saying.

eragot

Jan 31, 2014 at 07:22 PM

@Mugwump, yes you did (or at least the functional equivalent - which I responded too), see:

And the biggest problem is that threshold is not some absolute number, particularly if you don't have a power meter to base your efforts off of. You go hard, really hard. Even if we stipulate that your threshold is X, some days, you're only going to get X-5w. Are you going to call off the session because it's X-5? I hope not.

mugwump said:

eragot said:

Last comment is about "what if your threshold is x-5w?" 1. Your threshold doesn't change. 2. You can have a bad day and need to use your body's feedback. Also, training is done in Zones. Zones allow for variability... Which led to my final statement - all of the riding helps...

Eric,
I never wrote the above. Only you did.

dstokes

Jan 31, 2014 at 07:30 PM

Can we return to a useful discussion of training tactics rather than useless arguments about who said what?

Jules

Jan 31, 2014 at 10:46 PM

(I tried to post this earlier, but I either posted it to the wrong thread or I nuked it by mistake)

The thing about longer threshold efforts is that if you haven't done them before (or in a long time) you need to train your mind to cope with them.

The mental aspect to training is oft-neglected, and very important - both in the moment and preparing for the efforts.

The first time I did an hour at threshold it was a minute by minute cut-the-blue-wire-no-the-red-wire! affair that left me shredded like an Enron tax strategy. Now that I have more developed coping mechanisms I feel like I can get closer to my actual physiological limits - at least closer than I used to be able to get.

I think it's important after each workout to do a little post-mortem and see what went well and what didn't. Sometimes I come into them under rested or underfed, and other times I have to admit I've talked myself into failing. With practice, all of these things can be avoided.

Unknown

Jan 31, 2014 at 11:00 PM

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mperlberg

Feb 01, 2014 at 12:52 PM

dstokes said:

Can we return to a useful discussion of training tactics rather than useless arguments about who said what?

I think these discussions are interesting and useful... but this is what the takeaway should be for most riders:

1) training is not yet scientific enough for any of us to really know whether 5on 1off x5 vs 1x25 is a more effective workout and whether training at 95% vs 98% makes a huge difference.

2) doing straight bouts of tempo to threshold is probably the biggest hole in most amateur riders fitness. so I think doing 20-60 minute steady efforts is key.

mugwump

Feb 01, 2014 at 05:45 PM

Jersey Mike,

Good points. There are times when training can seem easy. Plug in to a plan, follow it to a T, and you're mind it at ease. And even with a mediocre plan, you'll probably improve.

It's when I (and I think many others) start to look closely, that things start to get more complex. Are they rules or guidelines? Is maximizing essential or does satisficing yield a better result? Is aiming for perfect training more dangerous than just shooting for pretty good? When is specificity essential, when does it detract? And what is actually being trained, the mind, the body, both, and at what balance?

Marc Bertucco

Feb 08, 2014 at 07:29 PM

cross posted:

"Cracking open Mr. Grant's Tomb."

March 1 or 2, time TBD. Mark your calendars, weather depending, I will lead eager riders around both Grant's Tomb courses, discussing best and alternate racing lines, strategy and tactics. This will be a good opportunity for you to pre-ride the course that makes grown men shiver. Plenty of time to figure out where YOU want to start your sprint from, ask questions and generally familiarize yourself with the course that hosts one of the best races on the NYC calendar.

The idea is that this clinic is either immediately after a Central Park Race (crickets so far on that front), OR a stop on the way north over the GWB for a more usual weekend ride.

dstokes

Feb 12, 2014 at 06:50 PM

Vitamin C and E supplementation hampers cellular adaptation to endurance training in humans

According to the NYTimes coverage, this article gathered 54 healthy adult men and women, most of them recreational runners or cyclists and asked them to complete a vigorous 11-week training program, consisting of increasingly intense interval sessions once or twice per week, together with two weekly sessions of moderately paced hour-long runs. By the end, all of the volunteers were more fit than they had been at the start, with their maximum endurance capacity increasing by an average of about 8 percent.

The volunteers were divided into two groups: one that took a total dose of 1,000 milligrams of vitamin C and 235 milligrams of vitamin E and one that. took placebo pills.

The group who had swallowed the placebo pills showed robust increases of biochemical markers that indicate the creation of mitochondria. The volunteers who had consumed the vitamins had significantly lower levels of the markers related to mitochondrial creation.

There is a prevalent idea that such vitamins act as antioxidants, which counteract the oxidative byproducts that are naturally produced by the energy-producing reactions that occur in mitochondria. Thus, the vitamins (antioxidants) were supposed to produce healthier, more efficient muscle tissue. Instead, the authors "advocate caution when considering antioxidant supplementation combined with endurance exercise."

This supports my lifelong philosophy and practice: just eat a balanced diet and save money (and potential USADA violations) by avoiding the vitamin shops.

Jules

Feb 12, 2014 at 07:02 PM

dstokes said:

Vitamin C and E supplementation hampers cellular adaptation to endurance training in humans
The group who had swallowed the placebo pills showed robust increases of biochemical markers that indicate the creation of mitochondria. The volunteers who had consumed the vitamins had significantly lower levels of the markers related to mitochondrial creation.
There is a prevalent idea that such vitamins act as antioxidants, which counteract the oxidative byproducts that are naturally produced by the energy-producing reactions that occur in mitochondria. Thus, the vitamins (antioxidants) were supposed to produce healthier, more efficient muscle tissue. Instead, the authors "advocate caution when considering antioxidant supplementation combined with endurance exercise."
This supports my lifelong philosophy and practice: just eat a balanced diet and save money (and potential USADA violations) by avoiding the vitamin shops.

The oxidative stresses (including free radicals) seem to be what drive the adaptations that make you fitter/faster. Stands to reason anti-oxidants would do just what was described.

David Yang

Feb 12, 2014 at 08:05 PM

So...no more Centrum after dinner? That's the only "supplement" I take, uh, just in case.

Craig Zolan

Feb 12, 2014 at 08:41 PM

Interesting report that indoor training generates less power for the same RPE. I can't find the journal article they cite. http://www.prevention.com/fitness/fitness-tips/spinning-vs-cycling-which-burns-more-calories

dstokes

Feb 12, 2014 at 10:11 PM

David Yang said:

So...no more Centrum after dinner? That's the only "supplement" I take, uh, just in case.

Why? Just in case what?
I've never taken vitamins in my life. Unless you have some bona fide medical need, I think multivitamins fit into the category of adding DNA to your shampoo to make your hair more vibrant.

David Yang

Feb 12, 2014 at 11:13 PM

You can believe what you want, but chicken spit gives that extra bounce to my bouffant!

I take a daily multi-vitamin because I thought the potential health benefits (filling in gaps due to poor diet habits) outweigh potential negatives (has no effect).

However if the negatives column includes lower levels of these mitochondrial markers then I'd have to reconsider...

Option 1 - Improve diet, do not substitute meals with Slim Jims, eliminate vitamins, produce more mitochondria, suck at racing.

Option 2 - Eat Slim Jims and Cheez Whiz for meals, take vitamins to fill in the gaps, suck at producing mitochondria, suck at racing.

Beware kids, these are Devil Pills:

Jules

Feb 13, 2014 at 12:18 AM

I once ate an entire bottle of Flintstones in a single sitting, by order of color & character - although I'm no longer sure which had priority.

Come to think of it, that might explain a few things.

mugwump

Feb 13, 2014 at 02:46 AM

dstokes said:

David Yang said:

So...no more Centrum after dinner? That's the only "supplement" I take, uh, just in case.

Why? Just in case what?
I've never taken vitamins in my life. Unless you have some bona fide medical need, I think multivitamins fit into the category of adding DNA to your shampoo to make your hair more vibrant.

Stokes, while your personal endorsement is always worth considering, and your overall excellent health and impressive racing fitness is worth something, some science to back up your claims please.

About the hair, I mean. I work hard on my hair.

Jeffrey White

Feb 13, 2014 at 05:36 PM

JP, I always took you for a Mane 'n Tail man.

Unknown

Feb 13, 2014 at 07:26 PM

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Marc Bertucco

Feb 13, 2014 at 10:01 PM

cross posted:

Okay, tired of waiting for the "Legacy of AVD" to announce a spring race series or not, and looking at the Kissena calendar, I see that there is a new member ride at 9am on March 2nd starting on the Jersey side of the GWB. Sooooo....

"Cracking Open Mr. Grant's Tomb"

Where: 120th and Riverside Drive, Manhattan, NYC
When: March 2, 7:30-8:30 am (plenty of time to get to the Sunday new member's ride if so desired)
What: Course review and practice. Sprints, corners, etc. Hotlaps as traffic allows, but we'll breakdown every corner, every approach, etc.
Who: All KCC members (friends/family welcome too, but let me know ahead of time so I can bring release forms or something)
Additional note: Your day's training ride will be before and/or after; be dressed for lots of stopping and starting and listening to me talk.

Jules

Feb 15, 2014 at 01:23 AM

I dove into the deep end on the Google wattage forum (beware, ye who enter) and found this fascinating gem...

http://www.canal-insep.fr/fr/training-periodization-deep-root-cultural-heritage-and-innovative-paradigms-2013/ei_13_10_va_pr_stephen_seiler-mov

twoyacks

Feb 15, 2014 at 02:29 AM

currently engaged in a mind altering realization that training at threshold has been a complete waste of years of my life...A similar epiphany occurred when I realized that I liked Bourbon way more than beer...

twoyacks

Feb 15, 2014 at 02:31 AM

"Polarized Training" ....Polar Electro should file suit !

eragot

Feb 15, 2014 at 02:50 AM

Did not go did wn the polarized seiler route. I've been digesting the analysis of it. Basically, we don't apply to that model.

Jules

Feb 15, 2014 at 02:50 AM

All the secrets are revealed here... at last!

There is too much awesome in that web-page, I'm almost not sure where to begin...