Kissena Forum Archive

Jan 30, 2014 at 01:36 AM

I keep thinking - a winter like this, the rider who has the discipline to ride the trainer like he/she means it, and to get down to race weight, will have a mean spring. Especially you 4s and 5s...every spring some Kissena who worked hard over the winter comes out and smashes through their category. Battenkill ain't won in the spring when the weather warms up. It's won in your goddamn living room in January

Jeffrey White

Jan 30, 2014 at 01:59 AM

JP is your paragon of winter discipline leading to early spring results. He puts in his work day after frigid day, week after frigid week, month after frigid month, year after frigid year in the winter months and consistently puts the lazy young hot shots in their place when racing season commences. The colder the winter the better.

mperlberg

Jan 30, 2014 at 02:21 AM

Ok boys and girls, I know you've all been waiting for it....

Winter Training Part 3.... February!

Can you believe it, we're only one month out from racing season. Actually... a few seasons ago Charlie I hosted a race at Floyd the last weekend in February but we could only be so lucky...

The big question:

Have you actually been riding?

It is a serious question. You can't fake this stuff. These early season workouts are crucial. They build the base that lets you have a prolonged season. If you haven't, fear not. You won't be primed to be winning left and right, but you can still be a good teammate in the early races. Focus your season on starting in earnest mid April and go back to my January post.

So you have been riding....

Is it working? Are you totally fucking exhausted? (I am). By now, your body should be adjusting to the increased workload and these workouts should start feeling a bit more routine. If you're still struggling to feel like you can get through a week successfully, keep the January program going for a few more weeks.

February Focus:

1) Keep that whole steady / long ride thing happening.

2) That group / tempo ride? Keep it going. Add in a few efforts that will simulate what to expect in race. What does that mean? Sprint after a tempo interval. Accelerate after tackling a climb at tempo. Slot back in the group ride rotation to get less rest.

3) Threshold. Fuck Yeah. This is your bread and butter. Don't give up. 20x20,10 should be happening every week. I know it sucks. @David Yang - HTFU. Just do it. Put on 3 fans and open the windows.

4) Tempo. Try to get it going outdoors with 1-2 gals or guys who have similar strengths to you. Push from 40 up to 60 minutes. Super steady. Super steady.

5) sprints. Again, small ring, outdoors. As we get towards the later half of the month, start thinking PARTNER sprints. Nothing makes your legs move faster than having a friend to try to crush. Keep mixing them up. Standing start, rolling start, seating, standing, etc. If you're doing a set of 10, start thinking about having 1-2 of those led out by your partner at full gas. That isn't the focus, though. Keep the small ring stuff going.

What is different?

Honestly, not much. It's another month of boring torture.

That said, you should be thinking about application. How do my sprints work head to head? Can I move my legs after a tempo interval? Can I handle a breakaway (threshold) interval?

And the key question, can I actually do a week of training, and then repeat it again and again?

Priority:

A few folks have asked me, how do I prioritize? It's simple, do it in this order.

#1: Longish ride with tempo

#2: tempo

#3: long ride

#4: threshold

#5: sprints

That's all for now.

Please post questions for follow up.

Jan 30, 2014 at 02:56 AM

You can start adding in Threshold now. Or you can wait. It really depends on your season goals. You'll be strong from the base and threshold, but not fast.

David Yang

Jan 30, 2014 at 03:05 AM

Word of warning: Don't try to ramp up too quickly, especially if you've been off the bike a lot for most of the fall/winter like I have. I added a lot of hours the last few weeks and now nursing a screwed up knee and and have had to take it easy again this week.

Jan 30, 2014 at 03:06 AM

Aaron Blum said:

@eric strong is not the same as fast? I'm confused now...

Fast in a race usually means being fast for short periods. Say, 5 min and under. You need a good threshold in order to be strong in the crucial moments, but being good in the threshold zone is not what gets you the results, in the end.

Or, put another way, its possible to be strong for your 20 minute effort but weak for your 2 minute effort. Thats what Eric means by being "strong not fast."

Jan 30, 2014 at 03:38 AM

Aaron - in general, its pretty simple: one prepares for the 5 minute effort by doing 5 minute efforts. One prepares for sprints by sprinting.

FWIW, my plan goes something like this:

I'll focus on threshold and tempo til mid February. Then I'll start mixing in some Vo2 - like 5 x 5 min intervals - and start racing, which gives you a little of everything.

Then, in late April I'll move to anaerobic - the really awful workouts - 2 min, 1 min, and 30 sec intervals.

dstokes

Jan 30, 2014 at 03:47 AM

20x10,10

Remind me (us) of the nomenclature.

Jan 30, 2014 at 03:54 AM

I think Mike made a typo. I believe he meant 2x10,10, which would be two 10-minute intervals with 10 minutes rest in between.

My threshold workout is usually 2 or 3x20, 5. So, two or three 20-minute intervals, with 5 minutes in between.

twoyacks

Jan 30, 2014 at 04:38 AM

David Yang said:

Word of warning: Don't try to ramp up too quickly, especially if you've been off the bike a lot for most of the fall/winter like I have. I added a lot of hours the last few weeks and now nursing a screwed up knee and and have had to take it easy again this week.

Yang...after your build up...get that bike to ACME for a fit...just spend the clams. I have knee issues and a fit really clears up biomechanics injury vs overuse. My fit was so whacked I had to junk my Thomson seat post (not enough setback) and my stem (90mm was too LONG...can u believe it!) and shim a cleat...I was also instructed to stop fucking leaning back and to the left (the Retul video of my fit looked like the Zapruder film)..yacks

mperlberg

Jan 30, 2014 at 10:49 AM

dstokes said:

20x10,10
Remind me (us) of the nomenclature.

yes, it was a typo.

should have read 2x20,10

it means 2 intervals, 20 minutes each, 10 minute rest interval.

if you can get away with 5 minute breaks - go for it. for me, that's a little hard.

mperlberg

Jan 30, 2014 at 11:10 AM

Aaron - not too late to do threshold. They are intervals. Just long intervals.

I think the best way to think of it is like a pyramid.

the base is made up of your long rides, then tempo on top of that, then threshold.

So yeah, I would definitely do some threshold work before jumping to 5 minute intervals. They're pretty hard.

My guess if you can get pretty damn race ready just through this. Are you peaking March 1st? Then maybe you need to accelerate your progress a bit, but otherwise you'd be right on track.

dstokes

Jan 30, 2014 at 12:44 PM

try pyramids to work your way up to the sustained effort at a higher wattage than you are used to:
intervals of 1min,2min,3min,4min,3min,2min,1min with 30 sec rest between each.

In the context of a workout:
10 min warmup, 5 min threshhold, 5 min rest, pyramid, 5 min rest, pyramid, warmdown

Jan 30, 2014 at 12:50 PM

threshold workouts under 12 minutes are not considered effective at building threshold. So, shorter than threshold efforts should be harder to be effective.

http://www.jbvcoaching.com/TrainerWorkouts.asp

Jan 30, 2014 at 02:16 PM

Here's an article by a good friend and good coach outlining 5m on at threshold 1m off repeated as a good trainer workout.

I recommend the article in general for the indoor workout tips.

Dave Sharma

Jan 30, 2014 at 08:29 PM

@mugwump @ragot @stokes and anyone else-- thoughts on this pyramid? maybe multiple times in a row?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGGvKt8vWho

Jan 30, 2014 at 09:51 PM

Dave Sharma said:

@mugwump @ragot @stokes and anyone else-- thoughts on this pyramid? maybe multiple times in a row?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGGvKt8vWho

Looks like a decent anaerobic or neuromuscular workout, perhaps, or a good general workout for a time-crunched person who just wants to stay in shape through cycling.

But it's not really a replacement for threshold work. When it comes to exercise, people love quick fixes. But unfortunately you don't train for two and three hour races by doing 20 minute workouts.

Jules

Jan 30, 2014 at 10:12 PM

This has been said so many times, but the name of the game is accumulating those hours at threshold.

You can do an inverse-cosign-square-cubed workout using only prime numbers of seconds for rest and a fibonacci series of efforts... but at the end of the winter you'd better have lots & lots of hours at "tempo" (see the chart earlier) in your body if you want to do well.

Jan 30, 2014 at 10:13 PM

@Mugwump - that article is over 6 years old. As far as I can tell, thinking has changed since then. Send John an email and solicit his thoughts on the min time for Threshold work. I am very interested.

By definition, over 8 minutes is threshold. So, advocating for a 5 min threshold effort - it just doesn't make sense to me. Even in practical application in a race, the likelihood of climbing 5 min at threshold is a nice thought, but more likely gonig to be at a higher power.

IMHO...

dstokes

Jan 30, 2014 at 11:41 PM

First of all, cosine doesn't have a 'g' in it.

Jules said:

You can do an inverse-cosign-square-cubed workout using only prime numbers of seconds for rest and a fibonacci series of efforts...

Second of all, the 5 min was just to shake off the cobwebs. Do it all-out if you prefer.

dstokes said:

10 min warmup, 5 min threshhold, 5 min rest, pyramid, 5 min rest, pyramid, warmdown

Brendan Rigby

Jan 31, 2014 at 01:16 AM

i am having a lot of fun with my garmin's "workout" feature to design...well, workouts. please keep the knowledgebombs coming. ragot: i just changed my interval lengths to 12 minutes!

Marc Bertucco

Jan 31, 2014 at 02:07 AM

I'm posting this video here because Adam Myerson gives a serious shout-out to John Verhule, the dude JP was referencing. But you should watch it because there's also a shout-out to his girlfriend that is sort of hilarious too.

http://www.cyclingdirt.org/video/204665-Adam-Myerson-Post-Race-Granogue#.UusDxr8VGI0

Jan 31, 2014 at 02:33 AM

eragot said:

@Mugwump - that article is over 6 years old. As far as I can tell, thinking has changed since then. Send John an email and solicit his thoughts on the min time for Threshold work. I am very interested.

By definition, over 8 minutes is threshold. So, advocating for a 5 min threshold effort - it just doesn't make sense to me. Even in practical application in a race, the likelihood of climbing 5 min at threshold is a nice thought, but more likely gonig to be at a higher power.

IMHO...

how about some math?

5m threshold plus 1m rest plus 5m threshold is 11 minutes. Assume the rider is doing 100% of their threshold (aka 100) for ten of the eleven minutes. Assume the rider goes at 30% (30) of threshold for 1m. Add it all up (10x100)+(1x30)= 1030. Divide by 11. you get 93.64% of threshold for 11 minutes.

Now try it with 105%. The result is 98.18%.

And you have to repeat this at least more times. So in the first case, you've done 93.64% of threshold for 33 minutes. Seems like a real threshold workout to me.

Keep in mind that threshold is a theoretic number and you can't always hit it. And that part of the training is accumulating fatigue with incomplete rest. 1m rest is pretty short.

And if we look at the idea of doing 20m at threshold 10m rest, 20m threshold. That's 40m of threshold in 50 minutes. What I'm putting forth is 40m of threshold in 48 minutes. Seems like the body is working plenty hard without total mind-numbing burnout. As you know, the question is not only can you do it once, but can you do it at least once a week for three weeks straight?

I'll ask all the same; I've been meaning to write him.

http://www.fascatcoaching.com/sweetspotpartdeux.html

Jan 31, 2014 at 02:37 AM

Jules said:

This has been said so many times, but the name of the game is accumulating those hours at threshold.

I don't think I'd go so far. If you're extremely short on time, yes, an efficient way to get in shape, or improve your shape is this. But it's a good way to brutalize yourself.

Sweet spot it is probably easier and leads to as many gains

Jan 31, 2014 at 04:02 AM

mugwump said:

eragot said:

@Mugwump - that article is over 6 years old. As far as I can tell, thinking has changed since then. Send John an email and solicit his thoughts on the min time for Threshold work. I am very interested.
I'll ask all the same; I've been meaning to write him.

response: If you did 5 on, 2 off, for example, it would not be a particularly effective workout. But with incomplete recovery, it is. I would certainly never advocate 5 minute intervals for threshold without the limited recovery. And you hit on the main point: It's not set up as an "ideal" threshold workout, it's to survive trainer time.

Rick Perner

Jan 31, 2014 at 04:22 AM

Disregard

Jan 31, 2014 at 01:02 PM

Given that threshold is max for one hour, rest in between efforts under one hour are not needed!

Now, for mental reasons, people do like to take breaks. Ten minutes is too much IMHO, I much prefer 5 min rest or even less if you're ready to go again. So I like to think of 40 min of threshold in 45 min.

As for % numbers. There is a big difference between 93% and 98%. I'd say that when you are looking at 93% you're looking at a far easier effort. Actually, JP, you point this out yourself when you refer to SST training - just at the bottom end of threshold or upper tempo as being far more achievable for longer periods of time than threshold.

The long and short of it in my philosophy is that you train certain systems the best by targeting those systems. I don't see the 5 min effort at threshold effective in training threshold. This is even more true on a trainer when you can actually avoid the variation of outdoor riding. Take advantage of the trainer to target your training. You'll never train as well once you transition to outdoor riding - you just can't.

There is also a mental aspect to deal with here as well. Lets assume you have to suffer up a 10-15 minute climb, but you are only well trained in suffering for 5 min blocks. Good luck hanging on while you take that 1 min of rest while heading up the climb!

Regardless of what philosophy we may advocate for, there is no definitive answer. Even the sage guru of the science (Andy Coggan) is revising how to use power to train with. Verhuel is good friends with Coggan, so the two will be in line with each other is my guess.

Finally, riding your bike makes you a better bike rider. What if you don't train threshold? Well, you'll have a bigger base of sub-threshold work in you. You'll get used to threshold (which you rarely ride at in a race) soon enough when you start racing.