FBF.
On occasion I've gone to the velodrome when I needed 20 minutes or longer efforts. But FBF will solve all your problems, it should be open.

Ok. First, you do not need a 40 minute course to do an FTP test.
The best I ever found was on 9W, headed south. Start at the bottom (south) of the sprint hill. From there you can rail it for 20 minutes without any righthand intersections.

FBF is open 

FBF it is then.  Thanks!

@GregHoge

40 minutes without lights, major hills, or intersections around here is hard to find.  I'd take FBF over the velodrome every time; 400-meter laps gets boring and I wouldn't expect to be totally alone for 40 minutes there ever.  

I think I could create a loop for you in Blauvelt, NY that would have some rolling hills--though you should be able to pedal them all, but could be all right turns and probably be close to 20m a lap.  

For 20m FTP tests, I've lately been starting at 9W in Englewood and heading north.  When it's cold and I'm slow, I get around the scout camp in 20m.  When I'm fast, I make a U-turn about 18-19m in so I'm not going downhill in the last minute

so what's the protocol for FBF? can we just go in and ride?

Oh to be clear, an uninterupted (no pedestrian traffic), flat road loop is what I'm looking for.  FBF should work great since it's wide runways and I can't imagine a lot of other bike or walker traffic.

I do a TTE style FTP test, so it's 40 minutes of hard effort vs 20 with a regular FTP test. I typically do them when I'm not in city, but that's getting harder and harder to coordinate these days.

DevinHarris said:

so what's the protocol for FBF? can we just go in and ride?

Yes.

eloy said:

DevinHarris said:

so what's the protocol for FBF? can we just go in and ride?

Actually, take that back... you have to pay me $100 every time you go there jk jk

Trainer Road says they have a model that predicts your FTP without an actual field or ramp test. I'm very curious to hear how accurate it is.

Most have this: zwift, training peaks, strava all have an estimate of FTP based on past efforts, usually is something basic like 95% of your best 20 minutes of late. Not sure if Trainer Road is different. Not very accurate, but if no idea where to start or what to target on a test it can be a good starting point.

FWIW, I used the Trainer Road automatic FTP estimator and it totally works. I was at 275 doing a ramp test and then after 6 weeks of base got 276 doing the auto FTP (I wasn't expecting a bump). Only hitch is you need 10 trainer road workouts completed for it to have enough data. I believe there methodology is AI based and very different from other ways of estimating. 

Awesome!

I seen some projects estimate FTP based on very short efforts, if then adding a bit of data science and machine learning, one can totally estimate very accurate results.

In fact, even the non-AI based Strava, Zwift, etc have good estimates good if you have a solid effort, the challenge is that they provide an estimate regardless if you have hard efforts or not.

One nice thing about the AI based FTP experience in TrainerRoad vs a ramp test or 20-minute test is eliminating the extreme stress I often experience when taking FTP tests. Also, it just might not be your day when you've scheduled a test due to illness, nutrition, or whatever. With the new feature in TrainerRoad you simply hit a button when you have a ramp test scheduled, it gives you the new FTP, and then the app suggests you a full interval workout for the day (another downside of ramp tests is that it tends to burn you for doing more intervals for the day).

Testing is training. Training is testing.

Totally understand where you are coming from. Still, a ramp test doesn't prevent you from doing more intervals, the test is the interval workout for that day.

I have no doubt the Trainer Road FTP experience is excellent, it has oh so many applications.

There is something to be gained by experiencing the stress you are describing, preparing for the test, doing a little one or two day taper, and then killing on test day! Pretty obvious how it mirrors a race or event. It all adds up to make you better.

Second what Eloy says. 

Came across two articles on training one's breathing.  The idea seems to pop up periodically.

Here's one in the NY Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/29/well/move/run-diaphragmatic-breathing.html

It has a quote that is on point: "While there is not a lot of research on how diaphragmatic (or “belly”) breathing directly improves running, the experts we spoke with agreed that at least in theory, it can help to increase your oxygen supply during exercise."

This is where I find myself stuck.  It would seem that any bodily movement uses muscles, and that part of training is stressing muscles in a particular way to make them more efficient at a particular movement, like contracting and relaxing muscles to breathe.  At the same time, I haven't seen anything convincing that a particular program, other than altitude, has a measurable effect.  And, as noted in the comments, "Breathers gonna breathe," and our bodies would seem to be training this literally all the time.  

Here's one such article on a solution, but has a really small sample size and could just be public relations for the business mentioned in the piece.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/strength-training-for-the-lungs-why-heavy-breathing-could-be-a-shortcut-to-improving-your-health

I vaguely remembered seeing devices that claimed to train your breathing, did a quick google search and found the one I remember seeing. I'd be interested to know if anyone here used one (or knows of someone who has) and felt it made a difference. With limited research into it or reading about it, it seems kinda gimmicky

https://www.airofit.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjw__ihBhADEiwAXEazJsRdnbrBYwPoBuutbdHt8F-CkTNZmYXemXtLxCKQcVv92DF0JPmmrxoCXT8QAvD_BwE

Want to go from top of the turkeys to bottom of the kings?
Improve your performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDY8-lcEIHI&t=4s then find the right saddle and a pro bike fitter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBVL4RhUTvM and a stretch regime to get aero/functional strength: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvtOxWXskcg

Is there anywhere we can get training plans from? I’m improvising now but I could use something more structured 

@LennartZandbergen fill out this form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfPxKB4sg-fDlysqNAN8qiVNvJqHfVvYzU88CpVgJEBKMg99w/viewform

@Kathy Watts from Velocious can help you get setup!  Each KCC member gets a couple training plans each year from Velocious as a part of membership. 

Done!

While the pull quote is kind of boring, the article is a decent reminder.

"Finding another month or two in the legs may be more about careful management of fatigue and having a little more fun."

https://www.fasttalklabs.com/training/how-to-extend-your-season/

mugwump said:

While the pull quote is kind of boring, the article is a decent reminder.

"Finding another month or two in the legs may be more about careful management of fatigue and having a little more fun."

https://www.fasttalklabs.com/training/how-to-extend-your-season/

Always.

Following that article is this one:

https://pezcyclingnews.com/toolbox/whats-the-minimum-training-dose-to-maintain-fitness/

"This leads to an interesting and important question: what is the minimum dose of training that is required to maintainfitness during a break from focused training?"

mugwump said:

Following that article is this one:

https://pezcyclingnews.com/toolbox/whats-the-minimum-training-dose-to-maintain-fitness/

"This leads to an interesting and important question: what is the minimum dose of training that is required to maintainfitness during a break from focused training?"

I think there is a very detailed video on this - I'll try to dig it out. Almost certain I've posted it here before.

Jules said:

mugwump said:

Following that article is this one:

https://pezcyclingnews.com/toolbox/whats-the-minimum-training-dose-to-maintain-fitness/

"This leads to an interesting and important question: what is the minimum dose of training that is required to maintainfitness during a break from focused training?"

I think there is a very detailed video on this - I'll try to dig it out. Almost certain I've posted it here before.

https://youtu.be/ByD9HjJL554?si=xFEZ50Xr55WSDOMg

13:57

There is another I can't seem to find; had an effort by effort breakdown. TLDR; just a few hard intervals keeps you a lot fresher than you'd think.

Is training peaks is down, how do I know if I did the workout!!!??!

Your tendons will lengthen just from watching this... https://youtu.be/I-WyyqYhBGQ?si=-rV31B4aPDah6jY_