I'll be attending. I hope others do as well.

Sorry for not posting earlier. I was at the last (non-public) meeting a few weeks ago, along with Michael. (Brad Lander's office (city council) told me they thought Kissena should have more than one person attending, and suggested I just "show up.")

Based on that meeting, I'd have said things were going surprisingly well from the cyclist perspective. But I'm very concerned that the ped/cyclist accident last week will totally change the dynamic. I think these drums on the hill must have been something they came up with in response to the accident, in advance of tonite's meeting (or maybe even legal considerations), because they were *not* discussed at the last meeting. This has me *very* worried.

We're trying to achieve the best outcome we can for riders. But this process will impose certain constraints and trade-offs on us, and we have to be realistic about that. If we lose control of the process, we could easily end up with a situation where serious training in the park becomes really difficult. On the other hand, some of the options advocated by park management at the last meeting were actually really really good for us.

The thing that worked well at the last meeting was showing that we're as concerned about safety as any other group of stakeholders. We just want a consistent, enforceable, set of rules that maximize overall safety while minimizing the disruption to how we train in the park. We have to recognize that there are going to be some trade-offs, and we're just trying to get the best outcome we can. (For example, I'd trade the ability to do intervals up the hill without getting hit by someone coming down on a scooter for the ability to ride through the Kensington merge at speed.)

One thing to keep in mind is that we have two distinct agendas to protect- racing and training. Races aren't really in jeopardy because those are "events" and the park knows how to deal with events. The issue is training. That's where we can easily get a really bad outcome. Unfortunately, Kissena is the only group that's been invited into the nonpublic process that cares about road bikers. So we're representing both Kissena's interests as a race sponsor, as well as the interests of every cyclist who trains in the park. By the way, I think Michael is right about TA. They keep their distance from the "bike racer" agenda.

I think the goal for the public meeting tonite is just making sure this doesn't turn into some anti-roadie lynch mob, so that the ongoing planning process, which seemed headed for a good result, doesn't get derailed. The more riders who show up tonite, the better. A pre-meeting would be great, but I'm not sure how realistic it is given the schedule.

Interesting evening to say the least. A couple of "professional" activists in the crowd kept things lively. Overall a very strong showing by cyclists; many who were also parents & runners.

The husband of the injured woman was also there - I shudder to think how difficult that must have been. There were also a couple of friends of an elderly lady who was also badly injured by a cyclist.

The "task force" seems to be set up & managed by the administration that runs the Park - representatives were there from DOT, Police & several clubs.

The overall tone was very much "I am a walker and I hate the bikers" vs "I am a biker and I'm ok" or perhaps "I am a walker and I'm afraid of bikes" with ocasional outbursts of central casting crowd agitators.

The commander of the local precinct basically said, "stop telling me who you are and start telling me what to do" which was refreshingly honest. Basically it sounds like the Task Force is riding on a flat wheel; they're looking for a solution that doesn't involve banning cars outright.

I told him to put cops on bikes and he countered that they don't have any good ones - their last fleet was donated in 2001. I'm pretty sure we can rustle some up decent bikes from the local shops - I'll keep you posted on that one as I put myself forth as someone who could help them put cops on bikes. One thing I wondered as I walked home in the rain was 'how do we get them to commit to *riding* the bikes? ask for a yearly commitment of hours, miles, laps?'

Overall the best solution I heard was restricting car traffic to one lane to avoid the "squeeze" that happens when all non-car traffics is crammed to the left.

I think there was unanimous criticism of the barrels as unsafe, but indicative of a willingness to change.

That's it for now.

J

LOL

They don't have any good bikes

Maybe the City can divert some of its assault rifle and drone technology funding toward some $300 mountain bikes

the next step will be finding cops who can pedal a bike for more than an hour

Overall the meeting was OK especially given the large cycling representation in the crowd. It could have been much, much, much worse.

One thing is clear, we do need to make an effort to educate other cyclists about safe use of the park, especially those jerks who ride like crazy people on Saturdays and Sundays at noon during July.

Very much agree with Mike on what we got vs the risk. I'd say this was an 8/10 on the Phew scale.

@ Ryan we can't win going head to head with the cops. We can get the local precinct on our side though - and that means befriending them. I am very aware this is not an easy thing to ask of anyone, but I think it is the right thing to do in the long run. I would even go so far as to suggest Charlie add a "fastest finest" category to the saturday morning races - a one lap drag race for any pd/fd that care to show up. We need to educate the cops as much as anyone - we want them to be able to distinguish between fred & friend, know the names & palmares of all the local team hotshots (yeah, that's you RJ!) and help us keep the park safe for responsible training.

So at the risk of starting an epic flame-war, I say we get these guys some bikes, and teach 'em how to ride.

J

Agree with above. Our goal was to calmly take some abuse (which we did) while preventing an anti-cyclist lynch mob from forming (which we also did). Main takeaway was that nothing that happened seems likely to derail the task force planning process. It's easy to take the anti-cycling sentiment from the meeting and conclude that the solution is to keep cyclists and everyone else separated in a way that works for all, which is where the task force is headed.

It was also good to see that pretty much every cyclist who showed up had that attitude, and that the hostile/accusatory types were all peds/runners. Ok...there was one exception...that guy who bragged about what a hard core "5AM" rider he was before proceeding to say that everyone he presumably rides with is a "maniac" and "threat to his children" who must be "stopped" before it's too late.

What's always amazing to me is how people don't recognize that we're as/more likely to get hurt as everyone else. They seem to think that we just hit people at will and then ride off. They have no idea how much time most of us spend trying not to hit people who aren't paying attention to anyone else.

Jules..re the 78th...I"m all in with trying to engage them. But I've never found them to be straight up about anything in the park, and it seems to come straight from precinct command down. I think they believe that policing "petty" issues like people nailing each other on the drive is beneath them. Not a reason not to try to engage, but somehow we have to find a way to get past that attitude. I know the are some cops who are actually serious riders (Wonder Wheels?). If we're serious about this, I wonder if it's worth reaching out to them to get a few ideas?

@Jules

I realize my prior post was more than a little sarcastic and incendiary, but I'm saying it on the Kissena message board and not in front of a room full of sensitive folks at the task force. I trust Mike's guidance entirely on strategies for the club's participation in that task force. And for the record, I agree 100% that cops on bikes seems like a smart idea, in theory, as long as they are enforcing things fairly and reasonably.

That said, the feeling behind my rhetoric was one of frustration in response to the following: if cops on bikes is a viable solution to a real community problem that is threatening the public safety, and local police (i.e. the City) are genuinely interested in helping to solve that problem in the interest of public safety, than the idea that they need local bike shops to donate them bicycles for a new fleet is simply absurd. I think its evidence of their lack of interest in engaging in a meaningful way, and I'd be more than a little concerned about what would actually happen to the bicycles that small shops donate and concerned citizens take the time to help procure.

I agree that our public face should be one of acquiescence and smiles, because that's largely going to be what helps us get what we want. At the same time, I don't think its unreasonable for a citizen to want the police force to operate in the interest of public safety - in this case pedestrian and cyclist safety - an issue on which the NYPD is steadily building a horrific track record. If we don't recognize that then we aren't fully facing the problem.

@ Ryan

I can only agree - and play my Strokes album...

The history of the NYPD is filled with examples of "disappointing" behavior and we should all be concerned about different ways past patterns could re-emerge and interfere with our goals for cooperation & success. That was one of the reasons I was wondering aloud how we could engage beyond just dropping off some nice new bikes and saying "see you in the park!"

I think the fact that this "task force" is even needed is a glaring sign of the failure of our public institutions & policies.

Bottom line, these are the cops that work here, and this is the DOT we have to work with, and this is the Prospect Park management that is running the park...

I *totally* share your frustration re: the lack of genuine interest expressed in the ambivalent (at best) behavior of the participants. It is a clear message that there is a leadership vacuum here we can fill in a productive way.

Lets try the following:

1) figure out the bikes (how many, where can we get them, how do we make sure they get ridden)
2) put together a fun slide-deck for the precinct called "Friend or... FRED?" that we can use as an educational tool and an icebreaker for the local precinct
3) think seriously about a "Fastest Finest" field for the spring series and how we can get some decent attendance for it

J

I think giving bicycles is a nice gesture. But I also have doubts that it will work. A police officer on a bicycle is not necessarily going to be more enlightened or compassionate. And often they look a little embarrassed to be on a bicycle rather than in a squad car. I was once pulled over by an officer on a mountain bike in the park late one evening a few years ago. He thought I was going too fast. He didn't know the speed limit so he had to change the ticket from speeding to recklessness (against whom? the park was empty!). The judge guessed that it was a mountain bike cop who issued the ticket and threw it out.
Is there a way we can have people ride in the park at busy times and educate others who are reckless? The problem here is that people don't like to be told that they need to change their behavior, and may become angry & obstinate. It's like that TA "bicycle ambassador" campaign. I wonder if it's effective (http://transalt.org/campaigns/bike/ambassadors). If we do any outreach, maybe we should coordinate with the Prospect Peloton gang and other local clubs (Wonder Wheel, United, BVF, etc). They're up on this, too. And a few are current or former racers. As for cops who race, one of them retired last year and moved to Florida. There is another who is semi-acitve as a racer. Nice guy. Works at a desk in downtown Manhattan last I heard. It may be good to reach out and get his off-the-record/informal feedback on how we can better communicate with the precinct.

I agree most Cops on bikes look a little fish-out-of-water but I think that's because they're out of their element.
Lets help get them IN the element, by showing them how to ride in a group, and riding with them
who knows, maybe we can find some cross bikes for them!

I think the team-outreach would backfire on us - we need the cops to be able to distinguish Fred from Friend so that if a local team rider rolls up and says, "hey Dave, there there is some trouble over by the finish line" they will take us seriously

My instinct is to help the cops police the park, not try and do it for them.

One last thing; for what it's worth - the Prospect Peloton aka Tuesday/Thursday morning ride is a menace. That group has no leaders (at least nobody follows instructions) and it's way too big for safety. The big undisciplined group, coupled with the pace (ride hard until the pack explodes) is a real danger. I don't think we want to associate ourselves with them.

j

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/woman_hit_by_cyclist_sues_city_for_yVemflYASFEfGAXBMWPoNM

This should put a sharper point on the issue for us. This woman was hit by a cyclist named David Sonenberg this summer and ended up in the hospital. She's now suing the city, but also the CYCLIST PERSONALLY, for......THREE MILLION DOLLARS. I don't know the facts, and for all I know it was totally here fault. But he was on a *racing bike* and going *fast* so it's his fault.

The woman's husband showed up at the task force meeting and made this "I have nothing against cyclists but they're a public menace" speech. And the parks representative read this tear jerker of a statement from the woman's mother detailing her daughter's pain and suffering. The next day, they just *happen* to file a big lawsuit and manage to tie together the task force meeting and their lawsuit in the press.

City bureaucracies, and "task forces" that depend on city bureaucracies, do not do their best work when personal injury lawyers are suing for millions of dollars and working the press. We could easily wake up one day and find that the cars are still in the park, there's a 15mph speed limit on bikes and an obligation to stop at every light and the 78th is giving out $500 tickets. Get in an accident when you're going 16mph and you have a life-changing legal problem.

So...if anyone was wondering how/whether this issue really matters, I'd say those questions are resolved. Personally, I no longer feel confident that we can just show the task force how reasonable we are and wait for it to produce a good outcome. Don't mean to be overly alarmist, but I think we have to "mobilize". Not sure that the means in concret terms, but I don't think we can be passive right now.

Maybe its time to start pushing the no cars thing. I have a hard time believing that people who love the park as a safe place for their children to play would not get behind the idea of bikes in the road, peds in the lanes, no cars. Is there not a large segment of the population who sees the park as something more than a back alley to cut down during rush hour?

Again, I think we need clarity. What are the rules? Are walkers allowed in the car lanes when cars aren't allowed in the park? Who has to honor the traffic signals and when? Is jaywalking legal? Are bikes allowed in the ped lane? When? Are pedestrians allowed in the bike lane? When? It's fucking chaos.

@Ryan....thinking the same. The one thing that everyone in that room agrees on are that cars in the park, and the way space has to be carved up to accommodate cars, is a big part of the problem. So maybe focusing on getting cars out went from being the hardest strategy to the safest?

In general, I'm thinking that Kissena can't be all alone on this issue. It affects all NYC roadies, and we have to organize and mobilize like these other interest groups do. Now, we're just on the defensive. We're punching bags, and our only strategy is to show "we're not all jerks", which is not a winner!

@Jeffrey...Agree. That was issue no. 1 last week. But now I think issue no. 1 is how do we make sure that the rules that need to be clarified aren't new rules that shut us down.

Not many people know what the rules are and even more just treat the park as if there were no rules. Since rules are rarely (if ever) enforced, people just do whatever they want. I'm not a fan of putting big signs up all over the place. I'm not sure that would help very much. Then again, there isn't any proof one way or the other. Would New Yorkers obey those? I don't really think so. Like the cop said: "I have a hard time getting people not to jaywalk on 4th avenue, how am I supposed to enforce it in the park?"

I do like the idea of getting rid of cars and having the lights flash yellow at all times. It isn't really that hard to get across the park road if you have decent timing and you're organized. It's the people that are walking a dog, talking on the phone, pushing a stroller and pulling a wagon with toddlers trailing behind that can get dicey. Seems like common sense, but more often than not it doesn't seem to be the case.

Also, I believe there is a high-powered, highly-influential woman living on PPW that will 'never allow Brooklyn to close afternoon traffic in the park'. Maybe she'll die soon.

I totally agree that:

1) the rules are chaos - this was widely acknowledged in the meeting as something that needs to be addressed through education, enforcement and (of course) simplifying the rules
2) total car ban is clearly the preferred first step for everyone - the best argument for it that I've heard is that it COSTS NOTHING to implement or reverse. This is a powerful lever and we should use it.
3) lawsuits et al: It's only a matter of time until someone starts suing CRCA and other "teams." when that happens be prepared to have the contents of these (and other) forums made public under subpoena

I think we can all agree that nobody is wishing an early demise of anyone, we just want a safe, fun place to ride & race our bikes.

J

In Mitch and Ryan's line of thought, I agree that there is a huge PR component that we've been ignoring. How do we call attention to the bad behavior of drivers in the park?

A quick brainstorm:

1. Clock their average, median, max speeds at various points in the park.
2. Collect video of them running reds, being inside park off-hours, encroaching on bike/ped lanes, honking aggressively, "buzzing" folks too closely, etc.
3. Collect video of dangerous interactions among pedestrians/pets/cyclists/etc. as a result of being crammed in narrow lanes during traffic hours.
4. Create and publicize some kind of web presence to advertise and publicize these incidents and solicit photo/video and testimonial submissions from the public.
5. Measure the number of cars use the park as a thoroughfare to illustrate just how minuscule an impact they would have on traffic outside the park.

These are all highly labor intensive.

Jeff I'd add, and this is far less labor intensive, expressing the sentiment that we too feel unsafe. From cars for obvious reasons, and from pedestrians who at any given moment turn around, change course, jump out in front, etc.

Therefore, we can empathize with others who feel unsafe, even if its for different reasons.

And a solution is a car free park which increases bandwidth for everyone, keeps everyone safe, and prioritizes the park's function as a community sanctuary in the madness of the city by asking drivers, who own everything else, to make the sacrifice. What parent who takes their kid to the park to ride a scooter would not get behind that?

I think it's time to "man up". We need to get a road bike advocacy effort going. Our perspective is not well represented now. We're not covered by the established cycling/transpo advocacy groups. And we're talking about preserving our current rights to train in the park, not organize races, which is mainly what the clubs/teams have thought about in the past.

A road bike advocacy organization would be great.

Some questions:

Under the auspices of whom? Kissena Cycling Club? USA Cycling? NYSBRA? Bike Snob NYC? A coalition of local cycling teams and organizations? A completely separate and stand-alone organization?

Most importantly, would it be open to triathletes/freds?

@Jeff

All good questions. Just starting to think about it today. I'd like to say "yes" to all of the above (doubt BSNYC though). I've already started to reach out to a few groups to feel them out, and have gotten a good response.

I think we should start by getting some interested Kissena people together, and doing a little brainstorming. Anyone around this Sunday?

FYI, I am essentially a Fred, and I intend to participate. So, yes.

Couple of updates:

1) I was riding in PP last night with Chaz from BH in the rain and the dark when a parks worker stepped in front of us and took about fifty photos of us with a high end SLR. No explanation; he wasn't there when we came back around

2) saw the precinct commander today in PP in the midst of the turkey-trot; chatted briefly with him about the runners permit (yes, they have the whole roadway) and he offered that they have the statistics of when accidents happen and it is NOT early in the mornings or during bike races

I wondered aloud if it would help to make them flash adds with local team kits so his guys could tell friend from Fred.

Food for thought I guess...

Seeing on Twitter that cops are all over Prospect Park to "educate people about the laws," which include this http://yfrog.com/kh41lazj

and ticketing cyclists

http://yfrog.com/nvid2jtj

I like how the laws only seem to apply to skaters and cyclists. This next meeting should be interesting.

Right. I'm fine with zero tolerance if you enforce it for jaywalkers and speeding/light-running carrs too. Doesn't seem to ever happen.

I maintain that NYC's obsession with cyclists is the most bizarre phenomenon I've seen in all my years of living in big cities. I can only conclude that there's a politically driven effort to juke stats and take focus off of actual problems that harm politicians who want to get re-elected (like traffic fatalities that are rising instead of declining). How else can you explain all the anti-cycling PR and the utter refusal to prosecute reckless drivers?

Hopefully it will blow over. I know that those Prospect Peloton guys are pretty upset - for better or for worse - and there is some talk of protest rides.

Daily News has a photo today of a Major Taylor rider passing a stroller with the headline "Break-Neck Speed" and a photoshopped detail of a radar gun showing 31 mph

That Major Taylor rider must be impressed with himself.

I don't know much about the law but that looks like a libel/slander (apologies to the lawyers who know the difference) suit to me.
If he's going 31 mph I'm Abraham Lincoln.