Hey... so I'm just getting caught up with this thread, lots of activity.

Michael, if you need, I can put you in touch with the founder of the Prospect Peloton list, Dan Wiener, he is a good friend, very smart, and well versed on all these issues. Trust me, he would a great advocate and someone you want to discuss all this.

I mention this because the NY Times reporter specifically asked about the PP list.

also... looking at the brownstoner comments... I am blown away by how actually bike friendly they are ( I don't mean it sarcastically) -- obviously, still lots of hate, and amidst a crackdown on cycling it doesn't feel like it, but this is a major shift from a few years ago. Today, at leat when warm, young (regardless of age) new yorkers commute by bicycle.

The current crackdown sucks, but I take comfort in knowing that it probably wouldn't fly in the warmer months.

The more I think about tea & cookies the more I like it.
Anybody interested in manning a desk by the finish line for a few hours this weekend?
j

I think the tea and cookies idea works best with a high turnout (a much better photo op), which means advance publicity and participation of other cycling teams. Imagine, a bunch of riders in kit, freds, pedestrians, runners, little old ladies, whatever, hobnobbing on the grass sipping tea and munching on cookies. (This is probably pig-in-shit territory for Adam.) Plenty of human interest there for some positive coverage in the blogs, and possibly even the press.

Advance publicity ideas:
Blogs: Brooklyn Spoke, Brownstowner, Gothamist, Carroll Gardens/Park Slope/etc. Patch, BikeSnobNYC, etc.
Press: The Times, The Post, The Daily News, Brooklyn Paper, etc.
Orgs: Transporation Alternatives, NYPD, Prospect Park Alliance, NBBL, NYRR, Brooklyn Tri Club, etc.

The problem, obviously, is that this weekend is awfully soon to get that advance publicity, and after that, the holidays enter full swing and the weather turns frigid.

Just thinking aloud here, but this is something we can do in the early spring as well, perhaps after races.

I know some guys like to ride another hour or two after a spring series race, but some just want to kick back, have a muffin and drink some coffee.

It's a great opportunity to mount a charm offensive and show our fellow park users that we too are normal people (albeit those who shave their legs and yearn for suplesse) who are civil, safety conscious, etc.

I'm thinking tea, cookies, hand-outs of an open letter declaring out commitment to safe, courteous riding, etc.

j

A key thing to remember is that we probably need to do our best charm offensive sooner rather than later. Short of organizing a tea and biscuits thing in the next 24 hours, I think just remember that in the park, be courteous, and ask other riders to be courteous to other park users.

People are looking to us to provide some leadership about how to react to any ticketing, but also how to improve cycling behavior in the park. So we should be demonstrating good behavior: not riding the wrong way, yielding to pedestrians, staying at or under the speed limit (which is easier in the winter when you don't want the windchill of going 35 down the hill).

I think we can do tea, biscuits and photo ops this weekend
it's not that hard to organize
j

I think we need some info to give out. Like a sheet on the rules on the road (White, you want to draft this?), like what people should expect from cyclists, like how to maximize safety for everyone in the park. I think we should also leaflet the cars in the parking lot. And, of course, a one pager on the club and how people can get involved.

There are good cyclists and there are bad cyclists. This we all understand and a point that should be emphasized to any non-cyclists.
We can tell the difference, but they cannot, so this should be a topic for education. (Why do all delivery men ride the wrong way?)
Good and bad are not necessarily related to speed or dress or age or style of bicycle or even number of participants in the pack (except for delivery men).
Bad cycling has consequences for other cyclists as well as for pedestrians (e.g., last Sunday's 9W episode).
One of the goals of Kissena has always been to get our riders safely through a ride, whether it be in training or in a race. Crashes suck.

Although I appreciate the sociology of Dan Weiner and his Prospect Peleton, I have to put him in the category of bad cyclist. He is a menace within the confines of the 5 boroughs and I avoid riding with him on this side of the Hudson River. Once west of the GWB he's fine, but something about the NYC cage sets him off. And he sets a bad example for others that ride with him.

On the subject of something we could hand out:

I've been going back & forth with Erin from Axis, Mel from Major Taylor and Pete from Ride Brooklyn on an open letter (which we could hand out) and will post it here once it's back from the most recent edit.

The paraphrase there are two main points:

1) we encourage (and teach) our cyclists to ride safely and courteously, while discouraging unsafe & rude behavior
2) we are committed to sharing the park with other users in a safe, responsible and courteous manner

I think the rules are variable enough and poorly enforced so we don't want to focus too much on that aspect, lest we get caught up in the axle of technicality.

Common sense, courtesy and respectful interaction are the rallying cries IMHO

j

Jules,
First, you're an excellent example to be out there. Employed, Married, Kids. Have the ER doc and the little ones with you. So responsible.

Second, "common sense." There's no such thing. Don't address it. Don't bother with it. Most claims of common sense are positional statements, just like most claims of morality.

Third, this isn't 'Nam, this is bowling (I mean NYC). There are rules. And chances are, people don't know the rules. They're going to condemn us, and you because you're the stand-in for all cyclists, for our lack of "common sense" though the reality is it's their ignorance of the rules that is the issue. Unless you have the rules handy, you're going to lose, because every person thinks s/he knows them. They don't. And if people can't agree on what the rules are, it's impossible to have a discussion.

JP I agree that this isn't Vietnam, the roads there are better maintained and less chaotic than in NYC.

I also agree that common sense is positional and most drivers would consider it against common sense to ride a bicycle in traffic.

There are rules, and we can probably find a way through DOT or TA to get a stack of these to hand out. This is better than the "Don't Be A Jerk" cycling handouts which don't have a driver equivalent "Don't Kill People A**hat!"
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot_bikesmart_brochure.pdf

Also from the PP website about the cycling rules (we also have to follow the general park rules like no smoking and BBQ in designated areas):

Bicycling Guidelines
• Pedestrians always have the right of way.
• Cycling is permitted only on the main Park roadway, Center Drive, and Well House Drive. Cycling is not permitted on Park paths.
• Be aware that authorized vehicles use the roads at all times.
• The speed limit on the Drive is 25 mph.
• Cyclists must travel in a counter-clockwise direction and obey all traffic signals.
• When the Park Drive is closed to motor vehicles, use traffic lanes – the recreation lane is for runners and walkers.
• When the Park Drive is open to motor vehicles, use the right half of the recreation lane.
• By law, bicycles must be equipped with bells or similar warning device. Helmets are required for children under 14, and are suggested for everyone.
• By law, bicycles must be equipped with front and rear lights when operating before dawn and after dusk.
• Do not wear headphones.
• Signal for turns and lane changes. Be cautious when passing others and warn them of your presence.
• Only one rider per bicycle.
• Do not bike with dogs on a leash.
• Carry ID at all times.

New Safety Measures on Park Drives

Please remember that the rules of the road are in effect regardless of the hours cars are allowed on Park drives. All bicyclists and skaters should stop at red lights. Pedestrians have the right of way.

You know, all these plans are great; but I'd add one more specific thing:

once in while, when you're riding in your Kissena kit, stop for someone as they cross the street. Particularly when others around you don't. And when they thank you, smile and say, "you have the right of way"

I promise you - that person will instantly get that not all cyclists are assholes. And they'll tell someone about it.

That stuff matters.

Agreed on so many fronts...
Prospect Peloton are a menace
Acts of courtesy are good
This ain't nam!

Overall we need a strategy. I suggest the following 3 pronged manouver to be coordinated by Mike "the Prez" Perlberg:

1) "Good Cop" Rules: Know 'em, print 'em, share 'em. Share 'em internally and with the press. Advocate for improvements with the park admin and dot. Advocate for consistent enforcement.

2) "Bad Cop" lobbying. Collaborate with crca, USACycling, ta and local politicians to get this nonesense to stop

3) "Charm Offensive" tea, biscuits, smiles, helping old ladies and rescuing cats. Lean the beat cops names teach them ours, invite them to rides, races etc. Open letter handout, community outreach.

At the end of the day the portant thing is that when we deliver a message (any one of the 3) it is clear and undiluted.

"these are the rules and by the way we are nice people" sounds too scattered.

Again, this is all IMHO

J

I do it all the time. More often than not the person is really confused.

Posted By: Ryan JYou know, all these plans are great; but I'd add one more specific thing:

once in while, when you're riding in your Kissena kit, stop for someone as they cross the street. Particularly when others around you don't. And when they thank you, smile and say, "you have the right of way"

I promise you - that person will instantly get that not all cyclists are assholes. And they'll tell someone about it.

That stuff matters.

Guys, here is the text of the open letter we are planning on delivering to the 78th. It could also serve as a handout for the "Charm Offensive"
****************************
Dear 78th,

As cyclists who frequent Prospect Park for both recreational training and racing
purposes, we are heartbroken to lean of the recent grave injuries to pedestrians
in Prospect Park
.
We are also concerned to see the resulting escalation of tensions between users
of the park, and as such are concerned about future access to Prospect Park for
bicycles riders.

It is our stated goal to promote safe Prospect Park as a safe environment for ALL
park users.

What we promote in our cycling team members, as well as other recreational
cyclists are the following:

-Encouraging cyclists to ride safely and courteously, while discouraging
unsafe and rude behavior. Cycling is a sport that combines individual skills
with extensive group experience. Novice riders learn how to ride responsibly and
safely by riding together with seasoned riders and following the example set for
them.

-Encouraging a positive view of cyclists by other park users.
Currently, there is much friction between cyclists in the park and other users - be
they pedestrians, runners, or rollerbladers. We, as cyclists, are in a position to
change this negative view with simple gestures and responsible behavior.

-Commitment to sharing the park with other users in a safe, responsible
and courteous manner. We hope that other cyclists, runners, and pedestirans
will join our members in helping to make Prospect Park safe and enjoyable for
everyone who visits.

No one benefits from the escalating animosity between park users, and we can
all benefit from commitments to simple guidelines of courtesy and common sense.

We hope to do our part in promoting a safe Prospect Park.

Signed,

Erin Korff / Team AXIS (917-753-8595)
Kissena
BVF
WWheel
Major Taylor…
Et al….

Confusing people by stopping for them is an interesting phenom.

When I go to the left coast, I am always confused when a car stops to allow me to cross the street. But they do it quite predictably and people who live there know what to expect and step out into crosswalks fearlessly. They would die young in NYC.

There is absolutely no enforcement of cross-walk sanctuary in NYC and I don't hear pedestrians complaining about it.
NYC pedestrians expect to get run over if they step into the street when vehicular traffic is coming. But they are oblivious to bikes, or they would likewise act on that sense of fear.

Cyclists are generally unpredictable - not us, the general population which rides at various speeds in various different directions (see photo above). So maybe it is hard for a pedestrian to know what to do (not that they try very hard). It would be great to impose predictability on the cycling crowd. Although that is a very daunting task, perhaps we could make a deal with the pedestrian factions to both try to educate our respective populations. This would simply serve as a point of compromise, because neither of us has a chance of succeeding.

I just wonder if a cop or community member who is firmly convinced that most cyclists are total asshats reads this letter and goes "great, then you amicable people won't mind us enforcing all manner of rules on you while we continue to completely ignore all the problems."

I mean, its not BAD, I just wonder if it's the most powerful use of our collective leverage.

@ Ryan: I don't think it's the most powerful use - it's just one piece of the platform.

We need a Charm Offensive.
We also need to play hardball.

Each belongs in a different forum (I think). An open letter on it's own does nothing, but in the context of a broad effort to improve this shitty situation (animosity, unpredictable rules & enforcement, reactionary news stories, etc) it is one leg of the platform we as cyclists are trying to build.

As always, this is IMHO.

j

Is it me, or is the picture in the story below actually about a rider going through the light as two cyclists (one rec, one in lycra) going the wrong way.

nice work NYT

Posted By: mperlberghttp://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/09/barrels-and-police-try-to-slow-prospect-park-bicyclists/?ref=nyregion

one note on the bad cop front:

Prospect Peloton is a menace. I am fully prepared to point that out. As far as I'm concerned they are a "gang" of cyclists that is terrorizing the park, myself included.

That is a fair description of their behavior, and a description that will resonate in the press if we choose to pursue it...

j

Jules, I think the fact that many people are addressing it many different ways is fine. I also agree 100% with the idea of a charm offensive in the park. I find the public is full of decent people when we actually humbly try to solve problems. The truth is I'm just deeply cynical when it comes to the cops. I think they hate us (and most civilians, really) and there's not much we can do about it besides demand to be treated fairly.

And you're also 100% right about the PPeloton guys.

I know many of them well and the ones I know are good guys. I like them - some of them I like very much. But most of them ride like assholes. I actually had a word with one of them on Saturday, after the group buzzed a woman in an intersection. This was about an hour before Ian broke his collarbone.

I think it's relevant to consider George Carlin's 'maniacs and idiots' monologue. Since cyclists are faster than pedestrians and slower than cars, we're both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkxaF5Pq5D8

This is also part of the "common sense" problem. There are, by recent estimate 500,000 cyclists riding at least once a month in NYC. Assuming a population of 8 million, that's one in sixteen. So just about everyone knows someone who rides. Despite this, much of the public steadfastly refuses to understand the behaviors of cyclists, which would become "common sense,' if the pubic just stopped to think of what it would look like from a cyclist's perspective. The perspective that people in cars are driving and walking because they need to while cyclists are riding because they want to live dangerously is absurd, but it still seems to be prevalent.

The park issue is what a friend of mine calls, "It's my park!" Park users often seem to believe that the park is for them alone. Cross the road where they want when they want. Stand in the bike lane. Ignore the traffic signals and then get pissed when others do the same. Complain that bikes are dangerous when it's the freak accident that people focus on. At times I wonder if we could get thousands of cyclists to ride on city hall in protest of cars driving city streets--I mean look how many people get killed every year by drivers!

We need to overcome the 'daredevils in spandex who lack common sense and are always invading someone else's god-given right' perspective. I don't know how we do it. Being nice seems like an easy one, even if people are confused. I see what Ryan is saying about the letter.

BTW, Prez Perlberg comes across as eminently reasonable in the Times.

Here is the source of the 'Nam reference. I thought everyone knew it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAhBa2zvAsY

Jules,
You have "bicycles" at the end of the second paragraph when it should be "bicycle."

I think it should be "seems to be some friction" rather than "there is much friction" I don't think that you know there is much friction. There are some angry non-cycling park users who don't like cyclists and are raising a stink, that's about as far as we know for sure.

You write "We hope that other cyclists, runners, and pedestirans..." Misspelling of pedestrians, but I think the better way to frame it is "we hope other park users join our members..."' I think it's good to suggest that we are responsible and others aren't.

Which brings up another thing. Maybe with something like this complaining about unsafe behavior of other users is a good tactic. it will suggest that while we try with all our might to be safe, we have troubles because people run out from blind curves, let their dogs off leash at the wrong times, stand in the bike lane when the park is open to traffic, and make it dangerous for cyclists.

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: eragot</cite>Is it me, or is the picture in the story below actually about a rider going through the light as two cyclists (one rec, one in lycra) going the wrong way.
nice work NYT</blockquote>

Eric et al,

This is a matter both as a letter to the editor (mail to letters@nytimes.com) and to the ombudsman (public@nytimes.com) For the letters, keep it short, address the article title in the subject line, mention it and link to it in the first sentence. Basically, point out how biased the piece is. She observed cyclists running the light. Did she observe pedestrians running the light, crossing where there were no crosswalks, walking dogs off-leash.

First, link to Prez P-Berg please!

Second, I actually used the maniacs & idiots phrase at the prospect meeting - it got big applause, and I think it's apt.

Third, I wholeheartedly agree with your cynicism. I worked for many years as a fire fighter and got an up close view of police behavior. That said, they don't like being hated anymore than anyone else. Every thing we can do to make the police think of us less as "other" is good. If the yield on our charm offensive with the 78th is 10% then I'm willing to do 10 units of good for 1 in return. It's one more than we have now.

As I've said before, I don't see a path to resolution in the park that goes contra (or head to head) with the 78th. As difficult, frustrating and disappointing as it *may* be, we have to give it an honest chance. Ignoring them won't get us where we need to be. The 78th don't like ticketing cyclists for it's own sake - they would much rather be catching real bad guys, so they could be "too busy" to deal with petty issues like this. And frankly, *we* would rather they were catching real bad guys.

Reminds me of "there are people out there with chainsaws!"

http://youtu.be/L7tS74x55pQ

So the NYT post is hot, makes Michael look hot, makes Kissena look hot.

While there are only a few comments on it, and it might shift, the pro cycling, pro "this is not a problem" nature of them is great to read.

related...
The DOT recently release a study:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/75157842/Commuter-Cycling-Indicator-and-Data-2011

It suggests, that bicycle riding in NYC has increased 102% (twice as many) compared to 2007 and by 289% compared to 2001.

Almost 300% in 10 years. Huge.

New York should more and more, be a city that understands and supports cycling. I look forward to the future.

cheers,

Eloy

While we're venting at the Prospect Peleton guys: As some of you may know, about 1-1/2 years ago I was riding in the Park on a sunny crowded weekend afternoon when Rick "The Beast" shouted at me "to get the fuck" out of the way for him and the PP Peloton guys as they came through. He was being similarly abusive to others. I chased them down, rode up to Rick, and gently placed my hand on the small his back and asked him in measured tones never to speak to me like that again. An on-bike mobile shoving match ensued in which I will claim victiry since he was unable to unseat from from my bike notwithstanding that he probably weighs twice what I do. In fact, when he first shoved me, I went with it, floated left and then back over to him. I can't say I was smiling but I was relatively calm. That made him even madder. His fellow pelotoneers told him to chill out. Now whenever he sees me he tries to start a friendly chat, which I find starnge. I'm not certain whether he thinks I'm someone else or he's making up for being an a**hole. Anyway... I digress. This is not about how cool I am (maybe we a start a new topic on the Forum for that), but how I like many others, have suffered verbal abuse at the hands of one of a relatively small minority of regular assholes riding in the Park and can understand how people unfamiliar with the character and social dynamics of the various cyclists they see would assume that we are all largely like that. 'Nuff said...

Rick the beast is the definition of asshole.

I will take Neil's comments as an example of what happens when someone behaves like an ass. Rick is an idiot, that one incident is enough for Neil's comments to suggest that the PP Peloton is full of them. Except it isn't. Rick is the idiot.

cheers,

Eloy