Jules and Eloy...you're both right. One thing to your point though Eloy is that I sometimes feel like the other guys who ride with Rick regularly, while not necessarily complict in his behavior, abide in him what shouldn't be abided and thereby cause an obvious association between themselves and his actions. If the guy were isolated by other cyclists, the aggrieved park users might be less apt to complain about "angry packs" storming around the Park and would instead see the situation in a somewhat more accurate lihght, i.e., there are a few lone wacka doodles who f== it up for everyone. I'd like to think that If we had a "Rick" our club (or even in a looser group of people with whom we rode), that we would take pains to disassociate ourselves with him. (I can remember one instance in the past where we sort of did that.) Anyway.....

I don't want to engage on this point too hard, as I believe we agree.

The Prospect Peloton is a mailing list, it is not an actual organization with guidelines. That said, because most members of the list are long time neighborhood residents and park user the list if fairly influential, some its members are very well connected and involved with local government.

There is a significant number of people that go out of their way not to ride even close to Rick, there's probably a few that don't know better, and a few that could care less. Making this similar to any group (cycling or not) with a regular idiot.

love,

Eloy

All,

Many good points above. I spoke with Liz for about an hour, with 55 minutes being off the record. She rides, and was hassled last year in Central Park during that ticketing "blitz". I think she did an OK job of trying to share both sides of the story. She really kept after me to get a quote. All cyclists interviewed in the piece come across as level-headed. I think that is good.

Re: Prospect Peleton - Liz was asking for info about them. I tried to explain, like Eloy said, that they are an email list. They don't have a leader. They don't have "members" in any real sense of the word. So yeah, there might be some jerks, but is a difficult situation to deal with. What is the worst you can do, kick them off the email list?

just looked at the comments in the NYT article Mike is quoted in.

This is the most interesting thusfar: "By some reports the 78th Precinct issued between 10 and 20 tickets last Saturday to cyclists for speeding and failing to stop for red lights.As a comparison, the NYPD only issued 5 speeding tickets to drivers in the entire precinct for ALL of October.Two bike accidents in the park in 6 months spurred the 78th to action. One person killed by an automobile every 2 - 3 days in New York City? Forget about it."

The public, the City council people, the public advocate should be outraged. TA at the very least should be the ones pointing this out.

Prospect Peleton has a jersey that people can recognize. I think that makes them more than an email list.

Perhaps we should implement a rule similar to delivery cyclists. "The law also requires cyclists to have a "metal, plastic or other sign of a type approved by the police commissioner, with the name of the business and a three digit identification number" that is legible from at least 10 feet away, according to the rules. They are also supposed to wear a jacket, vest or other item of clothing with the business name and an ID number clearly emblazoned on the back." (http://www.dnainfo.com/20111118/upper-east-side/residents-push-enforce-little-known-bike-delivery-laws#ixzz1g5DcQ2Tp)

If "racers" wore their kits, then complainers could tell their daddies.

I also found a wikipedia page on cycling in NYC. Maybe we should contribute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_New_York_City

Brooklyn Paper has a decently even handed article. Mentioning the need to have pedestrians obey laws as well.

Although is does mention that “cyclists and skaters must travel clockwise.” Maybe I'm fuzzy on this, but don't we travel counter clockwise? Opposite day? Hello...hello...this thing on...The comments are of course, comedy gold.

http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/34/49/dtg_bikecrackdown_2011_12_09_bk.html


Right next to another article about pedestrians being killed....by automobiles! Go figger.

http://brooklynpaper.com/stories/34/50/dtg_broadwaydeath_2011_12_16_bk.html

Decided to infiltrate Prospect Peleton by riding back from Piermont with them to take their pulse on this issue. They were fairly nonchalant with the attitude that it wasn't directly affecting them as yet and would probably blow over. There was sentiment that the minority of idiots in the park should be brought to heel, so not so far from our thinking.

Amazingly, it seems that Dan Wiener is old friends with the current commissioner of Brooklyn Parks, who basically holds the reins on the crackdown. This is the same fellow who was in charge of the Central Park crackdown in the spring. Dan reportedly had a long talk with him about the issue, including the idea that peds etc need to also have rules. Dan thinks we can expect the PP crackdown to play out similiarly to CP. I thought connection was pretty interesting and would suggest that if Kissena wants to express their views to someone with influence, the Dan Wiener might provide us an entree.

Despite my disparaging remarks above, the ride home was (mostly) without incident. A med sized stone was obeying the laws of gravity (as opposed to the laws of NYC) and found its way into tne intersection at 178th St, where it took one of the group down. We cursed it roundly and it had no comeback. Pedestrians on the bikeway were too few to create problems, so we were able to cruise at 23 mph unencumbered.

I've known Dan for a long time, and my experience is that he is a very generous, good man. Sometimes a little too aggressive for my taste when the west side path or brooklyn bridge are packed, but maybe that reflects more on me than him. He likes riding hard, and having fun, but he's not stupid. And if he's included in the conversation, along with some local racing clubs, that wouldn't be a bad idea.

Anybody have experience with video?
I have some interesting evidence from a confrontation today with a runner.
3.3 meg
email me offline or forum admin pls give me permission to upload here
j

@ Jules

Maybe upload to youtube and make it private, share with link?

Hey Folks,

Does anyone have time on their hands to catalog and write a brief (informal) report of incidents of car/pedestrian/jogger aggression against our cyclists this year? I would need it by tomorrow (Tuesday) afternoon.

Things that come to mind:

Keith having a gun pulled on him.
Whitey being tackled (fail) by jogger.
Whitey and RJ car incident?
Jules incident with other crazy jogger.

Any other hit and runs? Aggressive driving worth noting?



Mike

On Saturday, August 13, 2011, on my way to a race in Prospect, at 5:50am, I got hit by a cab trying to "make" the light at Bleecker and Broadway. I was riding down Broadway, the driver was going east on Bleecker. The front of the car hit me and I went over the hood. After three hours in the emergency room at Bellevue, it was determined no broken bones, no stitches necessary, but lots of bruising and a big hematoma on my shin.

I don't know how to quantify it, but I think twice this year, I've been on Kissena rides in Jersey where the other riders thought a driver veered from driving straight in attempt to scare me or fellow Kissena riders. No contact, but coming within a few inches.

Marc and I were on a ride in New Jersey where, as per state law, we moved to the left-hand lane to make a left turn at a light. the light was red, so we were waiting for green. A driver came up behind us and started yelling at us about how we were breaking the law and we needed to make the left turn from the right lane, or some other nonsense. An argument ensued, a reallly ridiculous one where the guy wouldn't leave us alone and I believe, in exasperation, Marc told him to find the law and get back to us. This is what I find as typical behavior from other road users, and even police, they don't know the law and yet are going to tell us what it is.

NJ bike regulations http://www.nj.gov/transportation/commuter/bike/regulations.shtm relevant is: 39:4-14.2, 39:4-10.11 Operating Regulations.

I had a car run me into the grass by the bandshell - he drove right up onto the curb screaming profanities at me. It was 7:20 on a weeknight in the summer.
Lucky for both both of us he was too fat (and diabetic? he had a handicapped sticker) to get out of his car to do anything.

Yesterday on my way up Union a black SUV with an EMT sticker drove by me very fast and very close in an attempt to get to the red light really really fast... or intimidate me. Not sure which... better still, a police cruiser was behind him, driving cautiously, enforcing nothing.

It's easy to bitch & moan about the headaches of riding in what should be a hassle-free public space. At the end of the day though, we're talking about being able to ride our bikes in the park.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/12/officer-shot-and-critically-wounded-in-brooklyn/?hp

This guy was killed catching real crooks. My heart goes out to his family.

j

@dstokes: "suggest that if Kissena wants to express their views to someone with influence, the Dan Wiener might provide us an entree."

Actually, I think we're a few steps ahead of that already.

We have a dialog going with Prospect Park admin now in which we're able to provide direct input regarding new rules/policies that will be proposed over the next few months. I've had a number of conversations recently with some of the key stakeholders/decision makers over the last few weeks. At this point, they basically look to Kissena as the ombudsman for "serious cyclists". So we have a lot of influence, if we use it constructively.

One reason we're in this position is that that we've focused on legitimate concerns of all parks users, not just our own, which has been appreciated by (and surprising to) most of the other participants, Park admin in particular. Shout out to Perlberg on this, btw. On two occasions Park admin has told me how positive his involvement has been.

The Park tells me they're determined not to let media coverage and lawsuits affect their commitment to the task force process and a good outcome for all. That's a pretty strong statement, if you're familiar with how city bureaucracies typically behave when they're under this kind of pressure.

Also, just so we're all clear, a lot of folks with influence in the process think the best (i.e. most politically expedient) way to make this issue just "go away" is to do something like pass a blanket 15mph speed limit and give pedestrians an absolute right of way. And make bikes stop at every red light. (Exactly this was done in CPW in 1992, if you're old enough to have been around then.)

The Park admin is not in favor of this, and they're the most important people in the process. But we need to realize that if too much media attention, or a really bad accident, sends the task force off the rails, this is what we could end up with. So our best strategy, IMHO, is to help keep the noise level down and the task force process moving along. That means helping make their proposals as good as possible, and then supporting them as they work changes through the task force and roll new guidelines out to the parks users this spring.

Frankly, some of the ideas/initiatives I see floating around may make great publicity but are actually not all that helpful. I know everyone's intentions are 100% positive, and I don't want to appear be slamming anyone by singling out anything in particular. Plus, this is just my opinion. But I will say that our best option (again, in my opinion) is to support Michael and the task force and use our influence there.

By the way, the forum is probably not the best place to discuss all the details of what's going on, because it can give the appearance of circumventing/undermining the public work of the task force. It also can be misinterpreted if it leaks. So I think we should be able to say anything we want in the forum, as long as we're clear that it's just discussion, not club policy.

Sorry for the long post, but wanted to get this all out there....

Mitch,

I think your clarification re: discussion vs club policy is important and accurate.

j

@Mike..."Does anyone have time on their hands to catalog and write a brief (informal) report of incidents of car/pedestrian/jogger aggression against our cyclists this year? I would need it by tomorrow (Tuesday) afternoon."

What kind of help do you need? More incidents? (I have a few good ones.) Or someone to write it?

Here's a paste of the posts Whitey and I wrote after the incident

Ryan J Jun 11th 2011

So, I guess it was my turn for an aggro-driver mishap. Jeff White and I were coming down Nostrand on the way home from what was a nice 70+ mile ride with Jeff Owens and David S. It was wet. Jeff and I had taken a lane because the right side was all torn up, and there were some manholes. We weren't there for long, or really holding things up even, but the car behind us was pissed. Basically the guy pulled past us and sort of swerved toward me as if he was going to hit me, which scared me and forced me to hedge to the right away from him - straight onto a wet manhole upon which I went down kinda hard.

No major injuries, hurt my wrist a little it seems but I don't think it's serious. Standard cuts and scrapes. Derailer is a little bent but I think its just the pulley cages.

Everyone be careful out there, seems like the aggression on the streets is palpable. Maybe I'm imagining it but I feel like I can really see the difference between when I left in December and when I got back in May.

Jeffrey White Jun 11th 2011
Seriously! I thought the guy actually made contact with Ryan. If he didn't, it was within inches. The dude literally swerved out of his way to do it, and then when he saw what he did, sped off. I locked up both wheels to avoid plowing over Ryan, stopping with my front tire against one of his wheels, and him sprawled on some seriously rough pavement. Ryan said he was actually glad the guy didn't stop, and in hindsight that makes a lot of sense, and I'm glad I was left in no position to chase.

I have to say I'm pretty shocked by the incredible behavior of that driver. I think there must be a sizable portion of the driving public who literally cannot fathom that the world on the other side of their windshields is real, and not some kind of video game or something.

Exactly that has happened to me in the Park many times during evening traffic hours when I've had to avoid pedestrians in the so-called "bike lane". I've filed vehicular assault charges on two occasions. On one occasion, the car ran over my front wheel and there were several witnesses. Miraculously, I've never fallen though.

Put it on the list.

Oh, and every Friday nite from about 7:30PM to maybe 9:30PM there is a skateboard convention on the downhill. On several occasions, there have been at least 75 of them, and they've take over the entire roadway. Their idea of sport is to try to force cyclists into the gutter.

One of the kids in the skateboard convention pitched a football at my face as I was going downhill. He waited until I was about 10 feed away before launching. I ducked, and got away with nothing more than an adrenaline spike.

I had something similar happen this summer when one of a group of three teenagers (not the skate kids though) intentionally pretended to leap in front of my bike as I rode by at a quick pace, causing me to grab a handful of brake and veer which resulted in 10+ foot fishtailing skid, from which I thankfully emerged upright, clipped in, and unscathed. When I jumped off the bike to confront the dear child he and the others briskly trotted off into the center of the Park (smirking no doubt). Darn kids.

It's amazing how many articles are written about these incidents and yet not a single one reports what actually happened. Do they do that on purpose or have they forgotten about journalism's five Ws?

http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/35/2/dtg_prospectparkcrash_2012_1_13_bk.html

Huh?

"Park officials insist the cyclist got distracted and fell, injuring no one but himself in the crash. But police say the biker hit a pedestrian, who was then transported by ambulance to New York Methodist Hospital."

your first mistake was regarding the Brooklyn Paper as something more than a conduit for fish & chips

^lollinhard

Heh. BSNYC today: "the Department of Transportation ultimately moved to solve it by harnessing the awesome power of orange barrels:...As you can see, the idea here is to force traffic into this extremely well-designed funneling system, and as you can imagine, it does no good whatsoever."

I'll give the article credit for including the point of view that the barrels actually INCREASE danger by restricting sight lines and narrowing room to maneuver. I've only been there a handful of times since their installation, but it seems like the cyclists than want to go 30+ through there are still doing it (me and an old lady were blocking it so this "racer" just swerved into the actual bike lane to buzz the mother with a stroller at high speed). Now they just don't see people coming. Perfect! Although there was a cop with a radar gun stationed behind the trees just beyond them last Friday. Didn't seem him roused to action.

Did someone say they wanted to go to A Salt and Battery? YUM

write letters to the editor of the brooklyn paper. VDiMiceli@CNGLocal.com. complain that the writer didn't do her job and shoddy reporting is a disservice to everybody.

Whitey, he wrote: "It's amazing how many articles are written about these incidents and yet not a single one reports what actually happened. Do they do that on purpose or have they forgotten about journalism's five Ws?"

They never learned them.

I felt her article was an affront to journalism, so I figured I should write her and learn more. I didn't identify myself as anything more than a person concerned with the truth, which is my main concern here. I had an extensive back-and-forth with the woman, a staff writer for the brooklyn paper. All she knows for sure is that there was an incident and it involved a cyclist by the orange barrels. She's trusting the police version of events because they, probably just one officer who almost certainly wasn't on the scene, told her more. She fell back on the excuse of a high work load and "Cops and park officials had limited info — so we had to go with what we could get. That's how this journalism thing works. Do you know anyone who could give us more details?" The broken hand report didn't come from the victim or the hospital.

I replied the journalism thing also works by holding stories when you don't have the facts and if you do run with so few facts, making absolutely clear what you know and what you don't. I suggested doing otherwise was bad journalism. to which she replied

"I appreciate your thoughts. I am passionate about bicycling and I love Prospect Park. Please let me know if you have more information and we'll add it. Thanks."

Now you know. They just wanted to run the story.

Is there another public meeting of the task force scheduled?