L&C Cup - Forum Archive

Jun 13, 2013 at 08:46 PM

@ Ryan.

One thing I've been thinking about lately is technique and how to best get that initial separation. To get the jump you want to have glutes, back, arms, firing before coming out of the saddle so you're really launching an explosive effort. The 'quickness' of this transition really seems to make a difference for me anyway.

In terms of positioning you for launch; perhaps lead out guy stays right up hill, peels off a handlebar or two to the left leaving you enough room to attack underneath him exiting the bend. Lead out guy drifts slightly left and a sweeper behind you let's you go (not slowing just not sprinting as hard). We could practice this during some Friday pm openers.

I'm a big fan of the Ragot 3 sets of 10 x 10 sec on 20 sec off to develop that muscle memory. Last two sets I do in a bigger gear 53x15'ish. After each set I keep a super high cadence during the rest between sets—110/120.

Also, talk with a Cav accent.

twoyacks

Jun 13, 2013 at 09:21 PM

If you are wearing the jersey...people will want your wheel. You should have 1 or 2 guys sweep your wheel, no free rides. As soon as you jump they should let the gap go.

Marc Bertucco

Jun 13, 2013 at 11:36 PM

Let me add a +1 for 10 second efforts to improve your snap. They are not about power, they are not about top speed. They are strictly about being explosive and getting to maximum RPMs as quickly as possible.

If you think about any sprint or jump, as the sprinter, you already have an advantage over your competitors. You know when you are going to go. Add to that a really explosive snap away from the field and you are almost guaranteed a little bit of a gap.

For me, getting a good jump is also a mental exercise. I really focus my energy on imagining my body simply exploding...suddenly and violently. I feel like most folks just take way too long to wind up their bodies and minds when it comes to a trip to terminal velocity. Now, some of those guys can still crush a sprint, because they start their effort miles away from the finish line and have great power.

But if we do it right on Saturday, with powerful leadout and with a couple of guys as sweepers as Yacks suggested, I just don't see how anyone can beat our guy.

I will say, if I'm fit enough, and I happen to be the last leadout dude with Ryan on my wheel (hey, stop laughing, it could happen), and we're within 200 of the line, my "leadout" is going to feel like I'm sprinting for the points as well. Whoever is that last leadout guy should really be going for it too.

harry bolick

Jun 14, 2013 at 12:47 AM

13june2013
L&C cat4 - roll call:

McKay	Duncan
chris	yack
Daniel	Reiners
Alyosha	Smolarski
Jules	Roazen
Jeffrey	White
James	Nelson
Andrew	Da Silva
Jeff	Condon
harry edmund	bolick
Craig	Zolan
Phillip	Maronilla
Wes	Tillman
Aaron	Blum

OK we need a stated&reasoned PLAN A & B & C. (&a road capitan(s).

GreenS1&S2 - DaSilva (helpers?)
Dots S1&S2 - Yacks (helpers?)
Yellow - Condon/Somarski/White/Bolick8th - Breaks; McKay/Bolick - Sprint Finish.
Grey - Bolick3rd (see above)

Please Road Captian Raniers & Roazen ~ ideas?
-harryB;-)

Jules

Jun 14, 2013 at 01:23 AM

Ok 4's listen up - if it's not flooded here are my suggestions:

1) I'm happy to road captain

2) Andy should be protected/assisted in his hunt for green - that means 3 things

a) a leadout (Dan, McKay, Jim how are you guys feeling?)

b) a sweeper or someone to go early and spook the others

c) a minder to help him get back on if he's blown by the bottom of the hill

3) Yaks needs similar help for the dots

4) Andy/McKay - or anyone else who wants to sprint for the final - find yourself a leadout guy and DO NOT BE THE GUY WHO GOES (or sends) anyone to the hospital sprinting for 11th, or even 10th... (or even 8th... it's the 4's man. Be smart - none of this shit is worth a trip to the hospital)

5) I don't think we are anywhere in the hunt for yellow but we have 10+ guys in this field so...

ATTACK and COUNTER LIKE CRAZED BANSHEES

Which doesn't actually mean "crazed" but does mean "Like you mean it"

We should try and keep things together until the first sprint AND the first KOM after which we should be lobbing strong guys off the front like haymakers. That means if an attack comes back we attack AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN.

So help me Buddha if a KCC comes back from an attack and we have a dozen guys sitting in the field and there is no counter attack I WILL WRITE THIS LETTER and we will all deserve it.

This needs saying every season so I'll repeat and summarize past threads:

DO NOT CHASE YOUR TEAMMATES

If a bridge goes after a KCC in a break you can join but DO NOT WORK unless and until you think you have a really, I mean REALLY good chance of both closing that gap without dragging the field with you AND being useful to that teammate when you bridge. If you jump on that bridging wheel you can cheer, encourage, etc but don't be afraid to say, "we've got a man up there - get us a little closer and I'll work"

ATTACK MEANS LEAVE THE FEILD BEHIND... WAY BEHIND

If you have any doubt look behind you - you'd better see daylight, not a string of 20 guys in a line behind you

ATTACKING ALONE IS REALLY, REALLY HARD

If you're feeling good get up to the top 5 and look around for that other guy who looks like he's about to get laid for the first time - you'll know him. Talk him up, "you're looking strong man, you wanna go next?" or "when they come back we're on, right?" you get the idea.

A GOOD COUNTER BEGINS BEFORE THE LAST ATTACK IS ABSORBED

You don't need to wait for "gruppo compacto" before you launch you counter - if you do you've just given everybody else a chance to rest. That wonderful moment when the front is juuuust beginning to re-colaesce is perfect - there are no "good wheels" for people to follow and nobody is sure who is staying and who is going.

Dan Reiners

Jun 14, 2013 at 01:46 AM

I am happy to be an Andy hill minder/pusher and part of the green train. Attacking at this point isn't going to be a good use for my lack of punchy power and an general lack of fitness.

twoyacks

Jun 14, 2013 at 02:34 AM

I'm going to shadow the polka dots on the 1st kom. Following him and coming around at the top has worked before. Sending someone on the attack just before the climb would be helpful as the polka dot guy tends to get antsy and wastes energy. If we could get two guys to jump right after the start finish on the kom lap it would be great. Force the polka dot guy to use his team before the climb. We have the #'s to control what is happening. We have the experienced riders. I'm down for helping in the finale. That is all. Yacks

Craig Zolan

Jun 14, 2013 at 02:41 AM

One comment from the peanut gallery - Harry is 3rd in the masters / grey jersey competition. We should try and get him points towards that jersey. A good day and he can be in the jersey.

jim_nelson

Jun 14, 2013 at 04:31 AM

I'm there for green jersey leadout duties. We should have 3 guys in front of Andy and a sweeper on his wheel. If you are willing let me know before the race and get yourself near the front early in the lap. If Andy is near you, give him a ride up. Don't get too anxious if a couple guys fly off the front at the bottom of the hill. Keep it steady and strong. Chris from RB (in second place 3 points behind Andy) has a good jump and has been successful surfing our train so the sweeper will help Andy get that bit of separation he needs.

Yaks - Erik doesn't really have a team working for him so he will tend to try and stay sheltered but if someone has jumped he will be forced to work. He will know you are on his wheel which I think works in your favor.

Marc Bertucco

Jun 14, 2013 at 01:14 PM

jim_nelson said:

Don't get too anxious if a couple guys fly off the front at the bottom of the hill. Keep it steady and strong.

Yes. Yes. Yes, a thousand times yes.

Jeffrey White

Jun 14, 2013 at 01:15 PM

For the gray jersey -- may I suggest Harry sweep our sprinter's wheel? He either comes around or he doesn't. Win-win. Maybe not quite as effective as a dedicated sweeper, but almost. It would be even better if someone could sweep his wheel, too. To paraphrase Stephen Hawking, "It's sweepers all the way down!"

David Yang

Jun 14, 2013 at 01:48 PM

For us noobz, check out this thread to get familiar with tactics and terms.

http://kissenacycling.vanillaforums.com/discussion/108/racing-strategy-tactics

Actually a lot of those links in the early part are dead. I haz a sadz.

Ryan J

Jun 14, 2013 at 01:50 PM

John Malcolmson said:
We could practice this during some Friday pm openers. I'm a big fan of the Ragot 3 sets of 10 x 10 sec on 20 sec off to develop that muscle memory. Last two sets I do in a bigger gear 53x15'ish. After each set I keep a super high cadence during the rest between sets—110/120.

I'd love to do some group openers, but I might get out earlier since it looks like rain later?

Jules

Jun 14, 2013 at 02:07 PM

Jeffrey White said:

For the gray jersey -- may I suggest Harry sweep our sprinter's wheel? He either comes around or he doesn't. Win-win. Maybe not quite as effective as a dedicated sweeper, but almost. It would be even better if someone could sweep his wheel, too. To paraphrase Stephen Hawking, "It's sweepers all the way down!"

Harry this is a golden suggestion. If you can "sweep" Andy's wheel you'll get the leadout of your life. Even going full blast Andy will get away from you but you'll be way ahead of your peers.

You'll have to be patient though...

eragot

Jun 14, 2013 at 02:08 PM

I think I can be out around 3-3:30
Ryan J said:

John Malcolmson said:
We could practice this during some Friday pm openers. I'm a big fan of the Ragot 3 sets of 10 x 10 sec on 20 sec off to develop that muscle memory. Last two sets I do in a bigger gear 53x15'ish. After each set I keep a super high cadence during the rest between sets—110/120.

I'd love to do some group openers, but I might get out earlier since it looks like rain later?

Andrew Da Silva

Jun 14, 2013 at 02:11 PM

Harry, or whomever else has big plans, whatever you want me to do in the finale just let me know. If I got the legs I'm yours.

Jules

Jun 14, 2013 at 02:22 PM

Guys - THREE JERSEYS is a tall order. We can do it - but we have to commit.

Figure out who/how you want to help (or do) and let everyone know. This team is fantastic for supporting riders in their racing goals but you have to ask!

Even if your goal is to "not get shelled out after the KOM" tell somebody so that we can lend a hand. Want to work on your pack position? Tell us! Someone will find you when you least expect (and most need) it and help you get to where you want to be.

Don't show up just to ride in circles - you can do that for free anytime. Take this golden opportunity to learn about racing - commit to some goals and do you damnedest to execute.

mperlberg

Jun 14, 2013 at 03:10 PM

Guys - We really need a marshal captain and a KOM official....

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An3Mt2Dj-_RDdE5HVW1zSTBJcXR5RGpERFMtOUc5dEE&usp=sharing

folks interested in KOM help contact Charlie directly.

David Yang

Jun 14, 2013 at 03:10 PM

JohnMalcolmson

Jun 14, 2013 at 03:29 PM

Jules is right, we have a truck stop full of diesel fours who can easily recover between efforts. Prioritize the win; Andy is flying and Brendan and McKay will crush it, Harry can sweep for the grey jersey.

Make clear your ambition and role you want to play, then line-up order and contingency plans (racing together and communicating during the race) can be figured out. Fail to fail and plan to plan!

David Yang

Jun 14, 2013 at 03:43 PM

Really stupid first time 4s question, when/where are sprint and KOM lines?

alyoshas

Jun 14, 2013 at 03:47 PM

I don't know if i can be of any help, my legs aren't the best but maybe they'll come around by tomorrow. I'm very good at communicating during the race and can read what is happening quite well so find me or i'll find you and we can get it on. While I would obv like to counter something if I have the means to do so, I can also prob help leadout Yaks on a KOM and perhaps launch an attack at the same time if there's momentum after a couple breaths of recovery at the top. Counter your own move...it can work, I'm convinced.

jim_nelson

Jun 14, 2013 at 03:54 PM

David - Green jersey sprint line is the Start/Finish line, KOM is cross walk at the top of the hill.

For a green jersey lap we will get a bell and a big green flag the lap before.

For a KOM lap we get a bell at top of the hill. I often miss the bell at the top of the hill because I'm in severe oxygen debt after getting back into the group after the sprints.

David Yang

Jun 14, 2013 at 03:57 PM

jim_nelson said:

David - Green jersey sprint line is the Start/Finish line, KOM is cross walk at the top of the hill.

Which lap/s?

jim_nelson

Jun 14, 2013 at 03:59 PM

Different every time. Usually kicks off with a green jersey sprint on the 2nd or 3rd lap and the rest get sprinkled in after that.

2 of each per race.

David Yang

Jun 14, 2013 at 04:15 PM

Thanks Jim, really helpful info.

dstearns

Jun 14, 2013 at 04:26 PM

mperlberg said:

Guys - We really need a marshal captain and a KOM official....

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An3Mt2Dj-_RDdE5HVW1zSTBJcXR5RGpERFMtOUc5dEE&usp=sharing

folks interested in KOM help contact Charlie directly.

@mperlberg -- looks like owens is doing the KOM.

what's the arrival/departure time for marshall captain? i'll volunteer - but need to be home by 8 am latest for family man duties....will that work?

Jules

Jun 14, 2013 at 04:34 PM

They'll ring a bell indicating that the "next time" around is the green/dots lap.

Joaquin

Jun 14, 2013 at 04:47 PM

eragot said:

I think I can be out around 3-3:30
Ryan J said:

John Malcolmson said:
We could practice this during some Friday pm openers. I'm a big fan of the Ragot 3 sets of 10 x 10 sec on 20 sec off to develop that muscle memory. Last two sets I do in a bigger gear 53x15'ish. After each set I keep a super high cadence during the rest between sets—110/120.

I'd love to do some group openers, but I might get out earlier since it looks like rain later?

I would love to join for openers/KOM leadout practice, but can't make it till a little later. The latest radar would seem to indicate that it will be clear untill about 7 (and even then, chances of rain only jump to 30%).

Joaquin

Jun 14, 2013 at 04:59 PM

Check that - there's a chance I can make a mid afternoon opener ride. 3:30 at GAP?