L&C Cup - Forum Archive

May 12, 2014 at 12:40 AM

You...you are a willy temptress, filling my head with delusional dreams of grandeur only to send me crashing into the rocks of reality !!!! You stay in the basement until Tuesday !!! I can't even stomach the sight of you ! (I'm sorry about that last bit...you know I love you)

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Jules

May 12, 2014 at 12:41 AM

^Tuesday night World Championships... coming soon to an aging 3 field at an abandoned airfield near you...

mperlberg

May 12, 2014 at 01:01 AM

The race start was totally ballistic. I struggled to clip in and despite my initial plans to take it easy for 3-4 laps, I could see the race potentially getting away from me. By the time I got involved, I was able to help close down the gap and bring it all back together. Next race, KCC riders, please line up in the top few rows. There is no competition for these spots, so just take them.

Up until the KOM its all a blur. Looking down, my normalized power is reading 350+ watts. Holly fucking hell. That is 1 hour crit wattage. The group strung out on the climb and I was very nervous the winning move would establish off the front of the KOM and it would drift away - basically what yacks is describing above.

it didn't. The group bunched and I attacked through it. nobody came. can I get a little respect here? what the fuck. I decided to dump it into threshold and motor along. I just watched my 10 second average power between 320-340 watts and soon I couldn't see the group.

The tactics here are pretty simple. Go hard, but not too hard. You're hoping to keep a gap open that will encourage chasers, but leave yourself with enough in the tank that you'll be able to hop on if they come motoring by.

On the top of the hill I was joined by a Montucci, Champ Sys, and CCB. We worked well together, and eventually were joined by another Champ Sys, Garrigan, and Stalin.

We built up a big lead. I skipped a bunch of pulls and ate my gel. I did about 2 laps without working much. This was very necessary for me given the really fast start. Plus, I'm surrounded by 6 cat 1s, 2 off whom were fresh off those fast crits. yeah, I get to skip some pulls.

Garrigan gets a mechanical. That sucked. I actually think that hurt my chances at a win. With him there, he forces others into riding hard and sucks more life out of them. Once he was gone, we went slow. Then the other champ sys guy flats.

With one to go, I lied and told others the chasing group was coming hard and they had to work. Turns out it was not a lie. I had no clue the field was closing.

I had my 30 second spot picked out for the sprint. No way I win going head to head in a 15 second sprint with Stalin. The idea was to get a jump and hope he'd hesitate just enough for me to have a chance.

I jump and take the lead, but within seconds Stalin and Champ Sys blast around me. Nobody else gets around.

Turns out one guy from the break is caught by the field. That was wayyyyy too close for comfort. But fun. Any day you can spoil the fun for the sprinters is a good day.

Many thanks to my KCC buds for gunking up the chase.

Jules

May 13, 2014 at 01:46 AM

Ok, it's Monday already. Role call for this weekend?

vlad

May 13, 2014 at 01:53 AM

Out.

(hitting up the NJ Crit Champs)

PatrickGrehan

May 13, 2014 at 02:19 AM

My delayed report and thoughts about Saturday’s race. I encourage other perspectives so we can cable together a plan for this Sunday.

The Cat 4 team had a large turnout this past Saturday and had good results to show for our efforts. In addition to putting three racers in the top 5 places, Brendan managed to win one of the Green Jersey sprints and I got second in both KOM sprints. Wes was able to get a third place on the first KOM sprint. The field sprint was disrupted when David and Brendan were taken down by a nasty crash. Our first KOM lead out was well executed. So well in fact that we didn’t notice the Mineola dude who sprinted past us at the last minute. He had done the same thing on the second sprint in the last race. Now we need to watch him.

Leading up to the second KOM sprint I was further back in the field and moved up at the finish line and happened to slot directly in front of the Mineola dude (Louisgie Shoy). There was a Kissena on the front. When we hit the climb I was on the right side on some guys wheel and the I was hoping Louisgie was boxed in behind me. He must've gotten nervous because he jumped early. I jumped after him but he had a couple of bike lengths on me. He started fading near the top and I nearly caught up. If I had another 25 feet to the line I would have beat him.

Now that Louisgie (is that really his name?) has made clear that he's going to try to challenge for the KOM Jersey I'm going to need more help if we're going to keep it until till the end of the series. We have 5 more L&C cup races, however I'm going to be out of town on the last race (most likely double points) and will be competing in the state TT championships on June 22. If he wins on these days he could take the jersey. This means that I have 3 more races to increase my lead. I have 15 and Louisgie has 9 points. Not only is it important that I get additional points, but we need to try to prevent him from getting points.

I am not talking about doing anything underhanded. There are a couple of ways we can go about doing this. The first would be for whomever is sweeping my wheel to let a gap open, forcing him to have to go around. Let’s not give him a convenient platform from which to launch. Next would be to have someone tail him and sprint past him to take his points.

Another strategy all together would be to establish a break (preferably with me in it). The Mineola team is not as strong as we are and our ability to establish a successful break and discourage chasing could let us get more points. If Brendan wants to collect more Green jersey points this might be an interesting tactic to consider for this week… just saying.

One last non-KOM issue. We had a literal swarm of Kissenas near the front for the first few laps and only a couple in the last few laps. I realize that this was partially my fault: I had asked some racers to lead out the KOM then switch to break patrol duty. This wasn’t practical as the attacks increased after the KOM and the lead out men needed time to recover. Next time I’ll rearrange this so as to allow ample recovery.

Even if we exclude riders who participated in the first lead out, there were several racers who had a hard time staying near the front during the second half of the race. Perhaps the pace picked up, or perhaps they did too much work during the first half of the race. In either case, it makes sense for some racers who think they only have the legs to be near the front for half the race to choose to conserve during the early point so as to be more active during the latter half of the race.

Other thoughts or observations about Saturday’s race? Other suggestions to improve our teamwork?

I’ll post a role call Wednesday and a team strategy Friday. Feel free to make suggestions.

Marc Bertucco

May 13, 2014 at 02:30 AM

Is going after yellow for the Cat 4s out of the series plan?

mperlberg

May 13, 2014 at 02:41 AM

I probably won't be defending my EPIC top 10 in the series overall.

Looks like we're heading to Philly for the weekend to visit a new baby friend.

Bad news? NOPE. That means I'll be racing Wilmington Grand Prix on Saturday and the Jersey 123 Crit Champs on Sunday.

Brendan Rigby

May 13, 2014 at 10:25 AM

Marc Bertucco said:

Is going after yellow for the Cat 4s out of the series plan?

I haven't done the math but it's still my goal.

Jeff Condon

May 13, 2014 at 11:57 AM

I'm in for Sumday.

Thierry Bonnaire

May 13, 2014 at 05:08 PM

I'm also in for the 4, I'll be happy to lead Patrick for the maillot a pois.

PatrickGrehan

May 13, 2014 at 06:01 PM

Marc Bertucco said:

Is going after yellow for the Cat 4s out of the series plan?

The Yellow jersey is still in contention. Matt Moocarme who is leading tole me he was upgarind this week so the remaining Leader is Edikson Pena from Montecci. He has 20 points. There are a smattering of guys with less than 10 points (including Wes and I - nice!), and Brendan has 5 points. There are still 5 races in the series so a concerted effort can definitely shoot him into contention. The guy to watch for/work over/ is Pena and maybe the enigmatic Baris Atyan.

Marc Bertucco

May 13, 2014 at 06:17 PM

Please, please, please work for yellow!

Just scroll up and read what some of our newer cat 3s like Jules and Yacks think of racing in the 1/2/3 fields.

Ryan J

May 13, 2014 at 10:11 PM

How often does a break stay away in the 4s?

If you really want results, why not just do jack shit except on KOM laps and at the finish? Why waste any energy at all messing with breaks? Let other teams do it.

Sure, that could backfire occasionally. But literally 90% of the time it won't. It'll just leave you fresher when you need to be.

It sounds to me like Kissena's 4s are spending too much time doing stuff that just ultimately helps other teams.

Myles

May 13, 2014 at 10:19 PM

What he said
On May 13, 2014 6:11 PM, "Ryan J" <

Ryan J

May 13, 2014 at 10:47 PM

Also if the problem is that we've got 15 guys in a race but several of them blow themselves up early because they don't have the fitness to control a race, then all the more reason to keep the powder dry. Sit those guys at the back doing absolutely nothing until the last half lap when its time to drop Brendan at the front.

Simplify.

PatrickGrehan

May 14, 2014 at 12:01 AM

@Ryan J‌ Thanks for the tough love. You make a good point that we don't need too waste energy patrolling the front or going for breaks. If a dangerous break occurs we can rally the troops into a pace line. I agree that we should put the majority of our riders on the finish and KOM sprint lead outs.

Having said that, given the number of Kissena 4s in the field, as road captain I am not opposed to letting a couple of hammer heads have fun trying to take their chances with breaks. Let's just clarify beforehand who is going to tailgun with Brendan (and make sure he does so) and who is going to lead out for the KOM. Those are our priorities.

BTW if there is interest in practicing lead outs, blocking and pace lines on Saturday in prospect, speak up. We would need a decent sized group to do so and this might be a good opportunity.

Marc Bertucco

May 14, 2014 at 12:17 AM

I want to clarify the use/definition of "tail gunning" here. Because actually tail gunning is really just a last ditch effort to save yourself from being dropped permanently usually in tight crits. Or that's how I use the phrase.

As I use/define it, this is a technique where you are at the back of the pack, the very back and as you are approaching a corner rather than stay glued to the wheel in front of you, and having to slam on the breaks and then accelerate up to full speed again after you get through the turn, you tail off the back of the peloton, leaving several bike lengths between you and the rider in front of you so that instead of being forced to break you can go through the turn at full speed, and save yourself an interval.

It's actually a very effective technique for the short term, as long as riders in front of you aren't getting popped and dropped. Because if that's happening, then you shoot your way up to the wheel in front of you no problem, but if that wheel has a gap between him and the rest of the field, then you are SOL.

Another problem, even if your sprinter dude is sitting in the back 1/3 of the race, then he runs the risk of missing a dangerous split, or get caught up in a crash (more dudes in front of you, mean more risk of getting crashed out).

Pelotons are fluid and ever-changing, but if, for the majority of the race, you can keep yourself tucked in around 20 riders from the front, until the final laps when you should be closer, then I think you can get all the benefit of the least amount of work, without risking getting tailed off by other riders struggling at the back.

Mark Inaba

May 14, 2014 at 01:22 PM

Ok Pat and team let's try this again. I agree with Ryan, and we should reserve our efforts for when it really counts. I am def guilty of going too hard too early and wasted my efforts for when it really mattered. I agree we made the mistake of flooding the front in the beginning of the race, giving our competitors a free ride for at least the first 2 laps. Perhaps we only need 2 or 3 guys only in the front for the first half of the race.

In defense of the 4's, we were looking real good with 2K to go. We had 6 to 7 guys lining up. Brendan was in perfect position and we were in the front moving in for the kill when Dave's unfortunate crash derailed the train. I can't imagine how much better we wwould of done

More importantly I'm happy no one from the team suffered any serious injuries.

Ok same drill. I'm in for the last KOM and finishing lead out. Pat point out your nemesis to me and I'll make the effort to sabotage his efforts for KOM points. Give me a heads up on Saturday training. See you all Sunday. Hulk time : )

Dan Reiners

May 14, 2014 at 03:37 PM

I am in for Sunday. I am happy to keep my tiny amount of powder/matches/digs dry for the end of the race showing other Kissenas how to stay invisible in a race.

PatrickGrehan

May 14, 2014 at 03:38 PM

Roll call for the Cat 4s

In a few days I'll assign racers to the roles of KOM and finishing lead outs but if you have a strong desire to participate in one train versus another make it clear the way Thierry and Mark did.

We will want to make clear who will be contributing to which lead outs. If you don't think you will factor in the race or if you have other personal goals (i.e. you want to "attack the hell out of the race" as Adam is fond of saying) don't hesitate to say so. It is better to be clear than make assumptions.

Don't forget to register. https://www.bikereg.com/24690

Jeff Apruzzese

May 14, 2014 at 04:17 PM

I'm in for the 4's. Feel free to use and abuse me wherever you deem fit.

Ryan J

May 15, 2014 at 05:23 PM

I'm in.

mugwump

May 15, 2014 at 06:46 PM

The current 1/2/3 lineup for Sunday 5/18/14 L&C race

JP, Jules, Ryan, Dale, Vollbach, Ragot.

...Debut race for Dale!

And only 40 are registered thusfar.

twoyacks

May 15, 2014 at 07:39 PM

can I register day of? Going to see that James Franco play sat. night and not sure what condition I'll be in leaving the city that night....

vlad

May 15, 2014 at 07:40 PM

I'd like to point out that Dale's debuted at a few other races, but hasn't actually raced any. Point being: Dale is not a morning person.

Let's hope this is the one.

Jules

May 15, 2014 at 07:40 PM