L&C Cup - Forum Archive

May 18, 2014 at 03:20 PM

Today's race finish was odd. We were all bunched up at the end to the point where people in the back were yelling at folks to speed up. I thought I was completely boxed in and doomed. Somehow, enough people shuffled around in just the right way and I ended up with some gaps to shoot through. This was my first sprint win that required something other than sprinting in an entirely straight line down an open road. I am happy and proud. Almost makes up for the fact that only a couple of weeks ago I missed the sprint because I thought we still had another lap to go...

I'm sure some curmudgeon out there will call me a wheel chopper or line-non-holder (I hear someone yelling at me, I think, during the video). But in the finishing sprint of a bike race you lose when you don't go around the people who are slowing down. I think I was on the correct side of the line between jockeying for position and being out of control. No regrets! Hopefully you folks will agree. Will post the video as soon as it's ready, likely tomorrow. If only my computer were as fast as my bike.

Thanks to everyone who helped (here's looking at you, Vlad with the downhill megapull). Good to see everyone today.

Jules

May 18, 2014 at 04:28 PM

Nice work Brendan! You'll need a second rear-facing camera to know for sure

Jules

May 18, 2014 at 04:32 PM

Ryan J said:

Jules said:

In other news James Snow the current head of Prospect Park came out to spectate, and was duly impressed.

That is great news. What particularly was he impressed with?

Ryan,

I think he was impressed overall with the size/extent of the event. If you've never been before, a bike race is sort of a shocking display of equipment, people, preparation and organization. Remember even Moser was gobsmacked at how many big the event was (granted, he drew a crowd)

James was impressed at the strategic positioning of marshals, the number of fields participating, and I think in general the "this is all over before most people are awake" aspect is always impressive.

Huge shout out to Canadian Mike who volunteered to be James's guide - I don't think we could have dreamt up a better ambassador for the races.

Myles

May 18, 2014 at 05:13 PM

Just as long as he wasn't staggering around screaming liability liability.

Nice work on the day everybody!
On May 18, 2014 12:33 PM, "Jules" <

Marc Bertucco

May 18, 2014 at 05:19 PM

Cat 4s, leadout? It kind of sounds like Brendan freelanced it. Which makes me both happy and sad. #greedy

Wes Tillman

May 18, 2014 at 05:30 PM

I never made it around to getting a leadout organized. My legs were tired from covering 3-4 moves in a row. Whoooops.

Ended up rolling in and getting laughed at by the paramedics while I puked up yesterdays mcdonalds.

Jules

May 18, 2014 at 07:29 PM

I never made it around to getting a leadout organized. My legs were tired from covering 3-4 moves in a row. Whoooops.

Ended up rolling in and getting laughed at by the paramedics while I puked up yesterdays mcdonalds.

Where is your iphone when u need it?

Jules

May 18, 2014 at 08:19 PM

Rush Hour.

I've been getting up a little earlier for these P123 races so that I'll have a little more time to digest my pre-race meal - today when the alarm went off I was so grateful that Raphael had tested our ability to wake up on cue when he did a full dress rehearsal at 3am of "Scream you head off" by the "Pant Poopers" - they're a local band, if you were wondering.

By 4:45am it was so early that even the giant centipede on the kitchen floor didn't so much as run from me when I turned on the light as he ambled away grumpily. I could totally relate.

After some TLC the night before my bike felt fast and light (light being a relative term - as this beast is fast and slippery, but not what you'd call svelte) on the ride up to Grand Army Plaza.

After my earlier semi-arctic debacles I was well & truly layered against the pre-dawn chill. I grabbed my number and pinned it on quickly before heading out for a warmup spin with Jeff Condon & Patrick G (the latter resplendent in his KOM red "dots" jersey)

After watching with amusement as JP was hurriedly pinned by someone else this time the whistle blew and we were off.

Unlike the previous week when the starting lap was basically the beach-landing scene from Saving Private Ryan this start was civil with plenty of chit-chat.

Eric and a couple of others attacked early and we all sat up, trying to give them a big lead.

At this point in the tale I feel the need for a digression. Last night, sometime between dinner and bedtime I discovered a package of Tate's double chocolate chip cookies. Now I know what you're thinking - probably the same thing I was thinking - "These are delicious! Why don't we have these more often?"

About six cookies later I had the answer.

About ten hours later on or about lap 4 I had another reason for abstaining. I'll spare you the intimate details but suffice it to say that I have a new set of distinct symptoms that I'll refer to in the future as simply, "Cookie Monster Gut." There is blue fur involved.

The early break came back, but Eric had somehow vanished; I asked several people if he'd flatted but nobody was certain. I kept an eye out for him on the sidelines but couldn't find him.

In general I covered moves, stayed near the front and attacked or tried bridging a few times when the opportunities arose. The pack definitely seemed "weary" compared to last week; there was lots of braking in odd places, and sudden slowing - I felt like I had a lot more in my legs between efforts and it seemed other people did as well.

At one point Ryan came by warning me about the counter attack after the KOM; I think that was the attack where he got away; that group seemed to shrink & grow before eventually turning into a huge (16 guys?) split that stuck to the end.

About that split.

Somehow I got caught napping and missed the split; it wasn't until Rene came up to me and asked if we had someone in the break that I realized my mistake. "Uh, yeah..." I answered uncertainly.

Once the Cat 5 race was done the pace-moto for that race dropped back to our main group. I'd been foolishly looking ahead, thinking "moto ahead, no split" without reading the glaring #5 on his back. Lesson learned!

I found JP and asked him who was up ahead and he said, "a big group."

"Do you want us to chase?"

"Yes," he answered.

So I got to the front, gave Dale the finger-pointing-down circle sign and we started taking turns.

At this point there were about four laps to go. I could see Canadian Mike at the start finish and hollered at him "how many?" to which he replied, "fifteen!"

So there were fifteen guys up the road, with just a handful of laps to go. The next time through I was still pulling (taking turns today, trying not to repeat my mistake from Tuesday) when I sat up and gave charlie the "finger pointing to top of wrist" sign for "how much time?"

Charlie said (I think) "thirty seconds" and a little part of me died inside.

After the top of the hill (I was suffering on the ascent) I made my way forward to the front and started lying to the top 10 guys, "Come on! They've only got twenty seconds!" I hollered.

That seemed to motivate people for the chase for another lap or so, but things were just too disorganized.

With just over one lap to go I spied a familiar rider moving up the righthand side - ERIC! Since the chase wasn't happening I defaulted to my rule "GWEG" (go where Eric goes) and slotted in behind him. To my surprise and relief he pull off at the start finish with just one lap to go.

I was tired, happy and tired. During the race I'd felt strong, but more importantly I'd felt like I was recovering well between efforts.

Looking at the numbers I had a great day - much better than I'd have guessed.

I did close to 350 watts (normalized) for 12 minutes and 325 for 30 minutes.

I can't complain. Now where are the rest of those cookies?

mperlberg

May 18, 2014 at 08:52 PM

@ Jules - I'm curious why we were chasing if Ryan was up the road. Did we not know he was in the break at the time?

Given our general lack of any results in the field sprint, not sure why we'd want to bring the group back together. Then again, I wasn't there, so I have no idea what the strategy was.

Myles

May 18, 2014 at 09:02 PM

Out here down the street from my place
On May 18, 2014 4:19 PM, "Jules" <

Ryan J

May 18, 2014 at 09:20 PM

I'd have been damn surprised to see a chain of Kissenas bringing back our group!

Now, someone jumping across would be a different matter. Even if that jump ignited the field to chase it's worth taking that chance.

But to decide to actively chase to bring back that move? Glad it didn't happen.

eragot

May 18, 2014 at 09:20 PM

I had actually attempted to bridge a few time that jukes didn't see. Cross eyed I guess. After the first lap break, I needed to chill for a while. My legs were blocked. I moved up later and actually ttold Jules to follow the winning move as I had just brought Stokes and Vollbach to the front. He didn't hear me, but Ryan and dale covered it.

mugwump

May 18, 2014 at 09:25 PM

mperlberg said:

@ Jules - I'm curious why we were chasing if Ryan was up the road. Did we not know he was in the break at the time?

Given our general lack of any results in the field sprint, not sure why we'd want to bring the group back together. Then again, I wasn't there, so I have no idea what the strategy was.

We had one rider in sixteen. Not good odds for getting in the money. The point wasn't to bring it completely back, but close enough to get someone across.

We made a mistake in letting the group get away with only one of us in it. I should have been up farther; had just been pulled back after trying to escape before the KoM with Gavi Epstein and another rider. We got brought back just as the hill began. Gavi stayed at the front, I dropped back. The continued pressure caused the split.

We tried to get Eric across and that didn't work. I really appreciated that Jules and Dale were able to help pick up the pace, and I think it was with five or four to go, I got away on the hill with Zeb Nelessen and Franklin Burgos.

we were going for 16th or 17th, but at least it felt like racing. I also believed Dioslaki was the only old guy up there.

my group was joined by Chris Loehner. We worked decently together, though Franklin is always hard to ride with. With two to go, we somehow dropped Zeb on the hill. Franklin was accelerating every time he took a pull, and it was getting to me--he was on my wheel, so whenever I'd come off, he'd get out of the saddle. It finally got me just past the temple. The two didn't go far, but I couldn't close. I also thought we were away for good.

And I got caught by the chasing field with less than 50m to go. Dioslaki was up the road, so he got the first old man points, and I think he was the first old guy up there. Not sure who else was there, but I'm pretty certain Wilson wasn't. I got passed by Guzman and Gottesman, not sure if anyone else.

So, frustrating day. We had strength but weren't smart enough. But kudos to Ryan for heads up, at the front riding on little sleep.

vlad

May 18, 2014 at 10:04 PM

As far as chasing guys down in the break, it seems that odds for getting in the money is the biggest thing that matters.

I saw the exact scenario go down in the pro crit at Wilimington on Saturday. A break of 7 or 8 got up the road mid way through the race. 2 of the guys in the break were UHC and I think that 2 were also champ-sys. After the break was well established with around a 30-40s gap, UHC train got on the front of the pack and started to close the gap; it's a beautiful thing to watch actually. One of the UHC guys from the break either blew or dropped back to help the train. Meanwhile the lone UHC rider in the break didn't do jack shit. A UHC rider in the train crashed and hurt the chase which allowed the group to stay away, but guess who from the break took the sprint?

Now that we've got some serious representation in the P123's, it's time to step our game up even further and play the percentages, keep throwing shit at the race (smartly), and go for the best possible result each time. This is the most fun and fulfilling racing that I've been fortunate to be a part of.

PatrickGrehan

May 18, 2014 at 10:33 PM

Let me first give a big thanks to the Cat 4 crew who contributed to the KOM lead outs. You guys buried yourselves and we definitely improved our teamwork from last week. Ed, from Major Taylor came over and complimented us on the lead out to the base of the climb. In contrast, Rockstar’s flooded the front of the field at the start of the race and did not seem to work together at all. I heard rumors of arguing and attacking each other.

Let’s get all the Cat 4 crew to practice lead outs at Floyd on the weekend - see below. Let’s continue to improve our tactics even further and we will be the envy of the Cat 4 peloton.

First, some highlights for those who weren’t there.

The first highlight and perhaps biggest disappointment is that Rigby won the sprint… without a lead out. Of the guys I enlisted to the final lead out in this week’s email one didn’t make the race, two had bad legs, and a fourth was away in a last lap breakaway. Vladi shepherded Brendan down the hill but this left him on his own and I couldn’t get to him.

At this point the speed dropped enough for the field to swarm across the road preventing anyone from moving up no matter how hard we tried. first lesson: I am going to insist on a pre-race meeting to ensure we have the manpower for the finishing lead out

Wes quietly slipped away into at least two breakaways. The first was on lap one where several of us blocked for a bit, the last one was on the last lap. Great job getting into moves.

The KOM lead outs started from far out with Ian hammering to pull back a lone breakaway on the first KOM. Thierry, helped bring me up when I needed it most. Jim, Jeff and Niall took over once Ian pulled off. I think Niall got yelled at by Saul for not making it easy to grab my wheel. Mark was glued to Lousigie’s wheel throughout the race, but unfortunately no one, including me was able to come around the Mineola rider’s wheel.

next two lessons: It isn’t necessary for the KOM lead out group to chase after a break if Lousigie (or Saul) isn’t in it - they are the only ones we are racing for KOM points. Also, while having someone cover Louisgie’s wheel seems like a good idea, it may be a waste of manpower given the difficulty of sprinting past him. Let’s try the tactics below instead.

I did not feel I had the same snap in my legs today as weeks past. On the first KOM I found myself briefly boxed in on the left and started the sprint from afar when I got an opening. I took second in the sprint as Lousigie caught and passed me.

On the second KOM I shifted from Niall’s wheel to Louisgie’s whose head was swiveling like Linda Blair’s in the Exorcist. My head was trained on him and I was late in seeing Saul’s attack. I got close, but was not able to pass them and took third in the sprint. my lesson: stick to Niall’s wheel longer and learn to swivel my head

I am still in the lead for the KOM jersey with 18 points but Louisgie is gaining on me with 15 points. Saul has 9 points.

Here is how I think we can improve our tactics for the KOM:

Start the lead out after the the finish line. Line it out single file. Let’s make competitors head into the wind at 27 miles an hour if they want to move up.
Have two to three guys drilling it on the right side of the road as the climb starts. Staying to the right will mean we only have to keep our eyes on one side of the road for attacks. As an added benefit, when the lead out men pull off to the left it will force competitors to have to go around them.
In an ideal world I would have two sweepers. The second sweeper (behind the first sweeper) would allow a gap to open when we hit the climb forcing competitors to have to go around and close the gap (again - without a draft)
The sweeper directly behind me should stay seated when I stand to sprint allowing a gap to open up and forcing competitors to go around). Again, drifting to the left may force competitors to cover more distance.

I would love to see us pull this off - to get the points, but also because it would be an impressive display of teamwork.

The final lead out:

The final sprint lead out may not need to be as technical given Brendan’s kick. However we clearly will need to have a handful or more strong guys organize at the base of the descent and commit to ramping it up and leaving everything on the road. Again we should have everyone meet on the right side by the temple and once the lead out is going we will take the fastest line including the left by the construction forcing competitors to have to pass on the right (where the lead out will pull off to the right).

In addition to commitment and hard work we could use practice. I will organize a lead out practice session at Floyd on one of the upcoming weekends (5/24-26 or 5/31-6/1). Reply with dates that would work and we will go with what works for most.

Ryan J

May 18, 2014 at 11:42 PM

Re the 123:

No doubt trying to get another KCC into that move was the right thing to do.

I'd be skeptical about the calculus of working to shut it down to give us a better shot at a result and frankly had that happened I'd have likely been pretty friggin' pissed off.

But from what JP's saying that was not what he was thinking today - he just wanted to get a bit closer so we could get someone across. Which is the right play.

mugwump

May 19, 2014 at 12:12 AM

And I should have added Vollbach to the horses. He put in some quality long pulls. The guy has some huge calves; I wanted to check them out as he rode, kind of distracting.

You know what they say; no calves, no glory.

Jules

May 19, 2014 at 12:41 AM

(I chased because JP asked me to)

Another parenthetical - with 6+ Cat 3's in that race I'd really like to read more race reports

Marc Bertucco

May 19, 2014 at 01:02 AM

mugwump said:

mperlberg said:

@ Jules - I'm curious why we were chasing if Ryan was up the road. Did we not know he was in the break at the time?

Given our general lack of any results in the field sprint, not sure why we'd want to bring the group back together. Then again, I wasn't there, so I have no idea what the strategy was.

We had one rider in sixteen. Not good odds for getting in the money. The point wasn't to bring it completely back, but close enough to get someone across.

We made a mistake in letting the group get away with only one of us in it.

Yeah, what JP said. Unless you've got money in the bank in a group that big, then the team can't sit back and let that go. I mean having Ryan or another strong guy up the road is usually pretty good reason to expect there to be some money splitting happening at the end. But not always.

There aren't too many hard and fast rules to road racing tactics, but 1 in 16 (again, unless it's Garrigan wearing a Kissena jersey,) and I'm in on the chase. And if I'm in the move/split that big, I expect to be chased.

If it's one in ten, then the decision making process gets fuzzy. Still not great odds, but guaranteed money up the road (providing the rider in the move doesn't flame out.) But 1 in 16? Chase is on. Whether that's to bring it back completely, so we can launch the remaining strong guys to get another move going, or just get it close enough to help our strong guys bridge, the worker bees are doing the right thing by pounding out the pace on the front.

You may not agree with me, or JP, or this tactic in general, but regardless, I think this shows that it is important to have pre-race team meetings. In person, on-line, whichever. If we are going to race as a team, we all have to be in general agreement as to our plan of attack. Too many different ideas of what constitutes good racing leads to confusion and sloppy racing.

Brendan Rigby

May 19, 2014 at 01:11 AM

Strava has given me a brief race report from someone in the 4 field who titled his upload: "Thanks to Kissena for chasing down your own guy in my move on the last lap. #tacticsfail"

Presently resisting the urge to point out to him that a guy from Kissena won the race, a result not generally associated with tactical failure. Also, that no one in the race is obligated to stop pedaling just because one person makes a move in the last lap.

mperlberg

May 19, 2014 at 01:14 AM

Serious question:

What is our best finish in a P123 field sprint this year?

Ryan J

May 19, 2014 at 01:25 AM

Totally disagree Marc. The break was down to 14 by the end and although I didn't deliver today I think I've proven to anyone who has paid attention the last two years that I can bring us results in park races. If you all burn a bunch of matches chasing - then what? Launch who? Not the guys who chased. And we didn't have our strongest crew today. No mike. No hulk. No Joaquin. Eric not on his best day. All you're doing is making a field sprint more likely. And what are our chances then? Besides...Mengoni only had one in. Did they work to bring back Juan Carlos? ChampSys had one. Did they work? Axis? Brands? You all can tell me to bring back a move with a teammate in it if you want, but I ain't doing it. Not unless there's an overall series at stake or something.

Wes Tillman

May 19, 2014 at 01:29 AM

Brendan Rigby said:

Strava has given me a brief race report from someone in the 4 field who titled his upload: "Thanks to Kissena for chasing down your own guy in my move on the last lap. #tacticsfail"

Presently resisting the urge to point out to him that a guy from Kissena won the race, a result not generally associated with tactical failure. Also, that no one in the race is obligated to stop pedaling just because one person makes a move in the last lap.

Fun fact - I was in that move with that jabrone on that last lap. At one point it looked like we had a pretty good gap so I rolled up along side of the 3 other guys (2 rockstar and 1 "wyld gnar brah stallyns" guy) and said "I don't give a shit if I come in forth place as long as we work together to keep this break alive... it's an 8 min effort from here.. let's just go". It was a total lie but I thought it would be a good way to let them know I was down to work. Either way, everyone said they were in to work together then about 20m later the wyld pony boy and one of rockstar bros started skipping pulls before we even got to the downhill.

Moral of the story - that kid is an idiot if he thought we had any chance of staying away with 1/2 of the break sitting in

mugwump

May 19, 2014 at 01:40 AM

mperlberg said:

Serious question:

What is our best finish in a P123 field sprint this year?

FWIW, in Central Park, I got 9th. And I think only Vlad was along with me. And I had been aggressive all race.

Jules

May 19, 2014 at 01:59 AM

Brendan Rigby said:

Strava has given me a brief race report from someone in the 4 field who titled his upload: "Thanks to Kissena for chasing down your own guy in my move on the last lap. #tacticsfail"

Presently resisting the urge to point out to him that a guy from Kissena won the race, a result not generally associated with tactical failure. Also, that no one in the race is obligated to stop pedaling just because one person makes a move in the last lap.

Just smile and re-watch your video.

Marc Bertucco

May 19, 2014 at 02:10 AM

So tactical disagreement aside, the more important point I was making is to have better pre-race/during/post-race communication.

Remember, it wasn't ME who told Jules to get to the front to chase. It was the other guy with a pony-tail on the team.

vlad

May 19, 2014 at 02:37 AM

@Ryan, it's great to see you getting in these moves and kicking ass. I'm psyched for the way you've been riding.

We have to ride smart as a team, and for me that means to listen to our mentors. I believe that it's important to listen to the guys that have been doing this for much longer than we have. The first person to introduce the concept of percentages when considering your chances with guys up the road was Dale. That's another guy whose opinion I respect because of his experience; that's no bullshit.

The firepower in that break you were in made it unlikely that you would finish in the money. Let's be honest. I would love to see you beat Meran, Gavi, or Dioslaki in the a sprint. I would love to see that day, seriously. But until then, it's better to look at who's been routinely producing in the peloton and play it smart as a team. Weren't there 3 foundation guys (and mostly Cat 1's) in the break? Lisban and Jaun Carlos, not to mention Carbo? Those dudes are strong ass beasts, as are you, but the cards are stacked and it seems to me that you could have used some support.

I think that you should keep riding the way you're riding bro. I also think that we should listen to the old guys. They know what they're talking about and us Cat 3's need all the help we can get.

Jules

May 19, 2014 at 02:43 AM

So tactical disagreement aside, the more important point I was making is to have better pre-race/during/post-race communication.

Remember, it wasn't ME who told Jules to get to the front to chase. It was the other guy with a pony-tail on the team.

Wait, wut? There are TWO guys with ponytails?!? Now I'm fucking confused. There is still just one Dave though, right?

Ryan J

May 19, 2014 at 02:43 AM

Not the point Vlad. The point is what's the alternative. Again: sending a guy across - absolutely. Would loved to have seen someone there. But our team - with its lack of a viable field sprinter - does not have a better chance today after it shuts that move down. I can't outsprint those guys, but in a longer range move I can beat several of them. Didn't play out that way today, but it has before and it could have again. Marc's not the only mentor - and I promise there are mentors who agree w me.

vlad

May 19, 2014 at 02:52 AM

I know. It's a tough call.

I would say Ragot bridging or even in the field sprint may have helped improve our odds. JP in the break would have helped. JP can also position fairly well and surf a wheel in the field sprint into the top 10; doesn't always work out but I've seen it a bunch this year.

We've got to use all our bullets.

What if you flatted? What if you got spit out?

Just saying. We've got to race... and do it as a team.

Also, let those mentors speak. That's what this forum is for. That's how teams work.