Weight Loss Discussion - Forum Archive

Sep 01, 2013 at 12:49 PM

normanzo said:

Strolling about some food carts in PDX with Wojciech today, I got a visual and a whiff of a burger phenomenon. If only I had a power meter hooked-up to my will, woulda' been off the Coggan charts.

Sweet Fancy Moses!

Ryan J

Sep 01, 2013 at 01:54 PM

normanzo said:

Strolling about some food carts in PDX with Wojciech today, I got a visual and a whiff of a burger phenomenon. If only I had a power meter hooked-up to my will, woulda' been off the Coggan charts.

LOL It blows my mind that anyone looks at that and wants to eat it. I find it so disgusting that it makes me not want to anything!

normanzo

Sep 03, 2013 at 03:04 AM

Ryan, yes... I found it disgusting too. A straight-up, high-quality burger is nice once in a while, but not that wacky stunt burger stuff.

normanzo

Sep 03, 2013 at 05:46 AM

Jeffrey White said:

I look forward to Norm getting in on this discussion. And I look forward to riding with Scott in person!

Hey Jeff and Scott --I'm way behind on commenting on the vegetarian discussion from a coupla weeks ago.

I can certainly understand choosing a non-meat/non-animal product diet based on morality. For myself, I relish the tradition of killing and eating animals. I just got my first experience operating a hunting bow yesterday and I can see pursuing my own kills in the future. Sure, I do chalk up my fastest sprints when evading pit bulls when riding near my parents home in rural South Carolina, but I would not only *not* be upset with a predator who killed and ate me --I'd respect him or her. If that ends-up being my ultimate fate, and if the sonfabitch doesnt tear my throat out first, I will regale the beast "what a fine lion you are, eat my liver first --I think it's the tastiest part."

So I don't subscribe to meatless morality, but I respect those who would rather not harm animals.

The idea of going meatless strictly for weight-loss and/or nutrition seems, well, goofy. Meat is undeniably awesome food and you can eat a nice satisfying amount of it and stay lean and fit. The complete protein argument is a moot point to me because I eat a very diverse diet and so the idea of needing any single food to be complete in any way seems arbitrary. But if you want to look at completeness, you should look at the whole nutrition picture --meat and especially delicious offal contains a magnificent complement of vitamins, minerals and other little beneficial nutrients.

I probably eat more veggies than most vegetarians. I eat a moderate amount of fruit everyday. I don't eat much processed stuff --and I'll never eat much soy product because it's highly processed and you have to have a top chef to make something that tastes as awesome as meat and organs and such. I mean who ever heard of people clanging their wine chalices together chanting "Ar! what delicious curd this is!"?

For weight loss, limiting the sugar is the key for me. Unfortunately, I grew-up loving baked goods and ice cream and chocolate bars and such. It's very hard for to avoid these foods for very long. But, even here in hedonistic Portland, I have tamed the sugar monster pretty well so that I stay under 170lbs which is OK for my 6'1'' frame. I eat well and I'm happy.

I have been loosely following the Cordain/Friel Paleo for Athletes for a long while --but I've recently gone against one of their recommendations, which some of you (who also follow semi-Paleo diets) may find useful: I have started opting not to feed and refeed carbs during and after my training rides. Even though the diet recommends this to replenish muscle glycogen most quickly/efficiently, I find that I don't need to rush the glycogen build-up 'cause I'm not really riding and racing like a pro or even a very intense amateur. I eat fewer energy bars on and after rides than I used to --so I can eat more whole foods for my regular meals and have a nice dessert (to satisfy the monster). I'll take a half a pint of ice cream over a couple or three Kind bars any day. This one little change has been really helpful to me.

I've also been fasting more so, stretching the fasts a little longer. Of course, fasting for me is of the Warrior diet variety wherein I forage on small amounts of fruit and veggies and a little protein (greek yogurt w/ egg protein powder, or a soft-boiled egg) during the morning and early afternoon --keeping the caloric intake quite low (usually taking in less than 600 kcal from waking til 4-6pm).

Oh well, I guess this is just a ramble on my diet. I recommend that you experiment to see what works well for you, pay attention to your body --but also, read widely from good information sources to find out what's nutritious as well as the stuff you might want to stay clear of. If you're not achieving your health, performance, weight-loss goals --try something else.

Jules

Sep 03, 2013 at 12:18 PM

It remains amazing to me how few peer reviewed, large scale longitudinal diet studies exist.

@Norm I think your cycling has enhanced your visions of being “et by a bar” which race was it where you compared yourself to a wild boar getting speared?

Ryan J

Sep 03, 2013 at 12:57 PM

normanzo said:

So I don't subscribe to meatless morality, but I respect those who would rather not harm animals.

I've been veg myself for about five years and also don't really think eliminating meat is necessarily a sure fire way to better health or weight loss, especially for meat eaters with the kind of diet you subscribe to (well, when you're not downing a sleeve of post-stage race Sausalitos in the back of our rental van). Vegetarianism can be great, but it can also be a diet of cheese pizza and Doritos.

Just a few thoughts on the morality question...

I think many vegetarians who choose that diet for ethical reasons (myself included) do so not because they don't wish to harm animals by killing and eating them - per se - but because of the particular cruelty of the food industry.

An animal that you kill in the wild with a bow has presumably lived it's natural life, in its natural habitat, used its natural instincts, and engaged in its natural behaviors. This is not the case with the vast majority of meat that hits our tables. Pigs, chickens, and cows in factory farms are generally denied all of those things, injected with hormones that turn them into freakish, unhealthy versions of their species, not allowed to move (sometimes at all), and in general just subjected to truly barbaric cruelty.

Your bow hunting also does not have a massive negative impact on the environment, as the meat industry does.

For these reasons, I'd be willing, in theory, to eat certain kinds of meat if the animals were killed by you (or I could otherwise be sure where they came from). Although, when I've had the chance, I just haven't wanted it - I don't find it appetizing anymore. But I'm definitely not "against" it.

normanzo

Sep 03, 2013 at 04:22 PM

Ryan --thanks for adding that note... and I agree with your sentiment on the terrible state of the meat industry. I try to buy animal products from better quality farmers/ranchers who treat the animals well with proper diet, pasture living, no hormones/antibiotics. And I frequent restaurants who buy the better animals products too.

normanzo

Sep 03, 2013 at 04:37 PM

Jules said:

It remains amazing to me how few peer reviewed, large scale longitudinal diet studies exist. @Norm I think your cycling has enhanced your visions of being “et by a bar” which race was it where you compared yourself to a wild boar getting speared?

Yeah, I've gotten a bit tired of reading the studies as the findings are so narrow. Long-term studies on diet may never be very helpful as humans are quite awful about reporting what they've eaten (as I often omit that bag of Sausalito cookies from my intake log). But perhaps reliable methods will come around.

The nice thing about taking a diet approach based on a mix of "ancestral" eating is that the healthfulness of the stuff is almost self-evident. Of course, at this point, we don't know exactly what humans ate and how their health progressed or declined, but we have some reasonably good guesses about some of the robust tribes/peoples and combined with observing your body's response to eating this or that food you should be able to do well.

I can't recall which race gave me the stuck boar imagery. I do think having rich imagery/visualization helps the adrenaline and other endogenous chemistry move faster --and for me it makes the racing more fun.

dstokes

Sep 03, 2013 at 06:01 PM

normanzo

Sep 04, 2013 at 02:01 AM

Not directly related to weight-loss, but just for those looking for a performance bump but not wanting to take Dr. Ferrari's "oil" --research says you should get out and chop some wood!

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013/08/22/3830928.htm

Jules

Sep 04, 2013 at 02:12 AM

normanzo said:

Not directly related to weight-loss, but just for those looking for a performance bump but not wanting to take Dr. Ferrari's "oil" --research says you should get out and chop some wood!

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013/08/22/3830928.htm

Nice. I'd like to see that stat after a bike race or weight lifting or... you get the idea

Jeffrey White

Sep 04, 2013 at 03:49 PM

@Norm - If you're going to eat "ancestrally" wouldn't you also have to use "ancestral" food handling techniques? Those dudes ate some serious microorganisms that we avoid.

Jules

Sep 04, 2013 at 06:12 PM

Jeffrey White said:

@Norm - If you're going to eat "ancestrally" wouldn't you also have to use "ancestral" food handling techniques? Those dudes ate some serious microorganisms that we avoid.

I think the "Ancestral" angle carries little if any water; Nasty, brutish & short indeed...

Jeffrey White

Sep 04, 2013 at 06:27 PM

@Jules - I heartily disagree. As an ardent believer in the theory of evolution, the chances seem vanishingly small that there wasn't intense selection pressure from our species's diet over the eons of pre-agricultural evolution. And the chances seem nearly as small that we have somehow eradicated those adaptations from our genomes in the last few millenia.

normanzo

Sep 04, 2013 at 11:42 PM

Jules said:

Jeffrey White said:

@Norm - If you're going to eat "ancestrally" wouldn't you also have to use "ancestral" food handling techniques? Those dudes ate some serious microorganisms that we avoid.

I think the "Ancestral" angle carries little if any water; Nasty, brutish & short indeed...

Jeff & Jules --actually, after a lifetime of observing the 5 second rule for M&M's dropped on the floor, I realized I wasn't getting sick from that practice, nor was I ill after dirt clod battles out on the farm with me brothers and the dirt didn't get out of our mouths and eyes til we got home. So I've recently adopted an even less stringent rule on washing dirt off my food. I no longer wash veggies, except sometimes a quick run under the faucet. If I have guests, of course, I wash the produce well (unless they sign the "beneficial bacteria" opt-in form).

There's a ton of good bacteria in good-quality organic dirt. There's even some beneficial worms...

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/2013/07/vitamin-c-guinea-pigs-limeys-and-gut.html

normanzo

Sep 04, 2013 at 11:50 PM

Got worms:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2814083/

Jeffrey White

Sep 05, 2013 at 01:11 AM

@Norm - Dude, that shit crazy!

If the worms can help me lose weight, I'M IN. I've had my fingers crossed for quite some time now in the hopes that science identifies some creature I can safely ingest that will pre-nom all the wrong shit I eat. Teammates will corroborate my inquiry re: medical-grade tapeworms (not doping, look it up).

On a more serious note, I aim for a loosely paleo diet. I've been on a strict one in the past -- the results of which were losing weight, gaining muscle, power records on the bike, and landing a couple of particularly good-looking girlfriends -- but apparently those weren't enough incentive to keep me on it. In these more moderate days, I simply make a mindful effort to favor paleo foods.

But one of the practices I really do strictly emphasize is consuming live/active cultures. This, in my mind, is a "safe alternative" to eschewing modern food-handling techniques, while still eating lots of bacteria. My breakfast usually consists of a few deep swigs off a bottle of kefir. My dessert is often a full-fat cup of maple or lemon yogurt. Ryan got me hopelessly addicted to kombucha -- I'm on two or three bottles a day right now and I can't see any way out that doesn't involve a lot of pills and a shotgun. Frankly, it would have hit my pocket book less if he'd gotten me into crack. I also make it a point not to use a paper towel on the doorknob when exiting public restrooms. I grab right onto that sucker with my bare hand.

So yeah, I guess my point is loosely paleo + live/active cultures. That said, I'm kinda chubby, so.

David Yang

Sep 05, 2013 at 02:28 AM

Kimchi, non-korean bros, kimchi will cure all that ails you.

Ryan J

Sep 05, 2013 at 03:12 AM

@Jeff Sheesh man, you're drinking 3 bottles a day? I thought I was addicted but I never do more than one. You should look into making your own!

jim_nelson

Sep 05, 2013 at 11:31 AM

Our house has gotten into making all kinds of fermented shit and I'm thinking kombucha may be next on the list. If someone finds a hookup for a good mother let me know.

We almost always have multiple batches of sauerkraut and kimchi brewing.

I love homemade yogurt but dairy isn't so good for me so I try to stay away.

JohnMalcolmson

Sep 05, 2013 at 11:53 AM

Homemade Kombucha gross-out warning — somewhere between growing a breast implant and face eating alien. Also need to be fastidious about cleanliness, otherwise other "things" join the party.

Jules

Sep 05, 2013 at 06:38 PM

Jeffrey White said:

@Jules - I heartily disagree. As an ardent believer in the theory of evolution, the chances seem vanishingly small that there wasn't intense selection pressure from our species's diet over the eons of pre-agricultural evolution. And the chances seem nearly as small that we have somehow eradicated those adaptations from our genomes in the last few millenia.

You're off your tree. Even Darwin's finches were showing massive beak change in just a couple of generations. As for the pressure itself, it's just too big a leap to understand what was optimized.

The strongest arguments I've seen are that rapid adipose energy storage & retrieval are the shinizzle, evolutionarilly speaking, not watts/kg.

Brendan Rigby

Sep 05, 2013 at 11:21 PM

David Yang said:

Kimchi, non-korean bros, kimchi will cure all that ails you.

one of my favorite things about NYC is the quality kimchi. the two places i've lived have both had cornerstores selling amazing, small-batch kimchi. back home in massachusetts, the only kimchi you get is mass-produced awfulness that is super expensive and tastes like sauerkraut. and it's vegetarian! don't these people know that real kimchi simply must have dessicated shrimp and delicious fish sauce in it? cmaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahn.

Brendan Rigby

Sep 05, 2013 at 11:25 PM

jim_nelson said:

Our house has gotten into making all kinds of fermented shit and I'm thinking kombucha may be next on the list. If someone finds a hookup for a good mother let me know.

We almost always have multiple batches of sauerkraut and kimchi brewing.

I love homemade yogurt but dairy isn't so good for me so I try to stay away.

jim, we had kombucha going for a while. we just followed some online instructions to make one from a bottle of storebought kombucha. we found it quite straightforward and perfectly satisfactory in terms of result. and didn't involve elaborate/expensive orders from strange vendors.

jim_nelson

Sep 06, 2013 at 02:27 AM

Oh, good point, I never thought about starting one from a store bought. I'll have to look into that. Thanks Brendan.

Craig Zolan

Sep 06, 2013 at 02:57 AM

there is also a guy that sells the kombucha stuff every Sunday at the Smorgasburg in DUMBO. https://www.facebook.com/KombuchaBK

normanzo

Sep 06, 2013 at 05:27 AM

@Jeff - yeah, Art Ayers' blog has a lot of interesting stuff. Fortunately, since you race cross, you're probably getting set to take-on a nice spectrum of bacteria through the fall season.

I got into drinking the kombucha, eating kimchi, a lot earlier this summer, but didn't really notice anything beneficial --so I only consume that stuff occasionally (had some nice kraut tonight). So I've settled back into fermented cod liver pills and greek yogurt (not together) as my regular fermented products. I'd like to add some *soluble* fiber... yeah prebiotics, to the mix. I'll try not to overdo it as I often do, perhaps a slight uptick in garlic, leeks, artichokes and --somehow-- get more chicory into my diet --perhaps via coffee substitute... ick!

It seems that while the probiotics are good temporary fixer uppers of the gut flora, prebiotics are important to making good gut. The belief that tons of carbs actually create a sorry ass, one-dimensional, gut flora has been helping me reduce my carb binging. Who wants a lame, weak gut?

Here's a post on prebiotics from Mark Sisson:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/prebiotics/#axzz2e5QAGJrP

David Yang

Sep 06, 2013 at 04:50 PM

Brendan Rigby said:

David Yang said:

Kimchi, non-korean bros, kimchi will cure all that ails you.

one of my favorite things about NYC is the quality kimchi. the two places i've lived have both had cornerstores selling amazing, small-batch kimchi. back home in massachusetts, the only kimchi you get is mass-produced awfulness that is super expensive and tastes like sauerkraut. and it's vegetarian! don't these people know that real kimchi simply must have dessicated shrimp and delicious fish sauce in it? cmaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahn.

I personally don't like it but the reaaaally funky stuff is with oysters. I love oysters and I love kimchi, and i even love eating oysters with kimchi, but ferment them together in a jar and gross out city.

Marc Bertucco

Sep 06, 2013 at 09:00 PM

Is the lesson here, that to avoid turning yourself into a biohazzardous mad scientist, eat more diverse ethnic foods? Because if it is, yum. I feel skinnier all ready.

Jules

Sep 06, 2013 at 11:12 PM

Well there *does* appear to be something to this "consuming things that are, er...yuk"

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6150/1241214